Sainthood

So, thinking that I might have a good chance, I looked up the criteria for Sainthood.

1. The individual must freely and voluntarily offer their life in the face of " a certain and soon to come death".
2. Their must be a " close relation" between " the offering of ones life and the premature death of the one who offers it".
3. The person must show Christian virtues, at least to an ordinary extent, before and after offering their life.
4. They must have a "reputation for holiness" at least after their death.
5. They must have performed a miracle.

Scheiss, now I am bummed.

Personally, I'd rather be verified on Twitter.

I do not use Twitter.

I'm not catholic.

I'd never seen these qualifications for sainthood before. And they strike me as really weird.

For one thing, do you really have to be a dead man walking before you qualify? I mean, come on: How saintly is it to offer what you're already losing whether you like it or not?

"Oh, my death is certain and soon to come. Welp, take my life, then."

Surely I'm misunderstanding something here.

ChefKate

@DarrenWalker nope, you're not misunderstanding. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to become a saint when alive. And dying when not at a ripe old age is a bonus for sainthood.

@ChefKate: Seriously? So if a young, healthy person with sixty, seventy years of life ahead of them dies saving somebody from something, they don't qualify for sainthood (because their death wasn't certain or soon to come), but if a centenarian goes "I'm a dead man walking so you might as well shoot me" they're somehow more saintly than the young person?

Catholicism is so weird.

@DarrenWalker
I did not speak directly to the Pope but these criteria are attributed to him according to several sources.

ChefKate

@DarrenWalker Well, Catholocism is weird. You got that right. What I was trying to say was that if you die young, usually due to belief that is in line of Catholicism, or action that ended in death but saved someone else, you have a better chance of becoming a saint. However if you live a long life then your actions are less likely to be seen to be saintly unless they were to the extreme like mother Teresa.

I believe it is stupid. But I also believe every religion is stupid, a waste of resources, and in most situations a way to keep people so busy that they can't think for themselves.

ReltvlyCanshes

@DarkLordChungus i agree. Id rather have a blue check

But Joan of Arc was a Saint, and she died before she turned 20.

And having read what I have read about Mother Teresa, she ABSOLUTELY did not deserve to be made a Saint.

ChefKate

@BuggleBear you are correct that mother Teresa was not who she portrayed herself to be.

I reread what I wrote about being young when dying making it easier to become a saint. It makes sense to me...but yes, Joan of Arc dying young for her beliefs went a loooong way towards her sainthood.

Btw, I only know this crap because I grew up catholic. I don't believe it... Catholics kinda look down on atheists, lol.

@ChefKate: If you live a long life then your actions are less likely to be seen as saintly? But... but the older you get, the more "certain and soon to come" your death is... and the thing literally says you've got to be facing a certain and soon to come death before offering your life counts....

I am so confused.

ChefKate

@DarrenWalker yes. The "certain and soon to come" generally focuses on a point where you need to make a decision, in my understanding. The decision is usually centered around staying true to the catholic beliefs in lieu of your life. Or giving your life so others may continue to practice the catholic beliefs. So if Joan of Arc had decided that she would give up on her belief in order to live (regardless if she changed her belief or lied to live), she wouldn't have sacrificed anything.

The sacrifice generally holds more weight when it is done with less life lived because you're giving up 80 potential years versus having been able to live them.

@ChefKate: Yeah, I'm definitely still missing something here. If you've got 80 potential years of life left, surely your death is not soon to come?

CuddleDuncan

@DarrenWalker don't forget you've still got to do a miracle after you're dead.

@ChefKate

But I also believe every religion is stupid, a waste of resources, and in most situations a way to keep people so busy that they can't think for themselves.

These things are all true some of the time, and from what you've said I'm guessing you had a bad experience with religion in your upbringing. But do not forget that what religion actually does a lot of the time is bring people comfort and help. Visiting the sick, comforting the dying, feeding the homeless .... prayer is not too distantly related to reflection and meditation. Community singing (hymns) brings a sense of belonging to the lonely. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, that's all I'm saying.

Note that I am one of those cured of religion by their religious upbringing.

@CuddleDuncan: Oh, that's easy. Just wait for a happy coincidence to hit somebody who likes you.

And, eh... I kind of like to think kindness and community and comfort and what have you can be provided by people who believe things that are actually true instead of things that aren't—but that's me, I really like truth.

ChefKate

@CuddleDuncan I see your point. I add to it that religion is not needed for those things to happen.

@DarrenWalker if you have 80 potential years of life left but are in a situation that puts your death as soon to come (ie joan of arc being burned at the stake unless she admits her beliefs are unfounded, untrue, wrong, etc) then the decision you make is paramount. If you sacrifice yourself, and thus the 80 potential years of life, in order to stay true to the beliefs, you have a good chance of sainthood.

@ChefKate: But if there's a way to get out of it then surely your death isn't certain?

---

Edit: I'm very tired. It's way past my bedtime. I'm probably missing something. Probably something obvious.

ChefKate

@DarrenWalker get some sleep. I have a feeling we're saying the same things in different ways, lol.

Heh. Thanks, @ChefKate. 'Night, everybody....

@CuddleDuncan

"But do not forget that what religion actually does a lot of the time is bring people comfort and help. Visiting the sick, comforting the dying, feeding the homeless .... prayer is not too distantly related to reflection and meditation. Community singing (hymns) brings a sense of belonging to the lonely. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, that's all I'm saying."

Why does religion get this free pass?

Like, imagine if there was a dude named Bill. His wife cheated on him, so he beat her to death, but he often works at a soup kitchen that feeds the homeless—so is that totally cool? No. He'd be sent to prison.

Here's another example: Jackie has three kids. She has instilled in them the idea that she is able to watch them at all times. One child is fine with this, and even finds it reassuring. Another child is made anxious by this idea, and suffers emotional distress for most of their young lives. The last child finds it all just too much—it's unbearable, and so they commit suicide. However, Jackie spends some time with old people and they enjoy her company. Would the latter nullify the former? No. Child protective services would be all over her.

Individual acts of kindness, and even acts of goodness on a larger scale, cannot undo the trauma and destruction caused by roughly two thousand years of cruelty and tyranny. In my eyes, the good is completely overshadowed by the physical and mental harms inflicted upon our species.

@DarkLordChungus
You mentioned that religion brings people comfort and help. Does religion do that? Or is that done by people seeking to do good?

TheFunCartel

@Mmart he was quoting @CuddleDuncan regarding religion, hence the quotation marks.

But to answer your question, it is always people. They have found plenty of cultures isolated from western theology who somehow managed to be welcoming and kind. Many learned violence and hate from the Europeans and practiced on James Cook for example. They were sharp learners with sharp instruments.

TampaDad

I am Jewish, so not only am I not a candidate, but they probably think I will spend eternity in Hell. If that was not enough, platonic cuddling is likely the icing on the cake.

TheFunCartel

Judaism is an organized religion as well. They were addressing organized religions.

@FunCartel
Thanks for clarifying that.

Sideon

Define... "miracle" for me. I mean, I've got the reputation for holiness down, but I'm struggling with the definition of miracle, as several examples could come to mind:

• at 18 tender years of age, I got separated from my tourist group in a subway station in New York City. I didn't even know the name of the hotel we were staying at. I miraculously took the next train and got off at the next stop and there they were!
• led a Ropes course team across a 100 feet of 2" diameter wire strung around several trees, 6' above the ground, while blindfolded.
• spent several days without even ONE forum flag or reported user. Bless!

@Sideon
I now declare you a Saint.

Sideon

You all do NOT want me as a Saint. But thank you for the kind thought, @Mmart .

ChefKate

Ahh @Sideon I love that it's you stirring the pot, lol.

Ok, so there's many different thoughts on what miracles are. Apparently Jesus (who we have no proof even existed...fight me) performed seven miracles ranging from turning water into wine (important because water wasn't safe back then with all the wiggly bits that could make you sick), to making a snack of bread and fish feed 5000 people, and the all popular healings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Signs

So, what is a miracle? I love this quote, "unfortunately, part of the controversy in regard to miracles is over just what is involved in a proper conception of the miraculous." Which is lifted from https://iep.utm.edu/miracles/ And I love the semi-conclusion from the same page, "Nevertheless some philosophers have argued that it is paradoxical to suggest both that such an event (miracle) has occurred, and that it is a violation of natural law." But if it only happens the one time it's ok that it violated natural law and can potentially be a miracle...wtf???

Then you get this from the same site, "Antony Flew (1966, 1967, 1997) has argued that if a miracle is to serve any apologetic purpose, as evidence for the truth of some revelation, then it must be possible to identify it as a miracle without appealing to criteria given by that revelation; in particular, there must be natural, or observable, criteria by which an event can be determined to be one which nature cannot produce on its own."
tl:dr miracles are what the people in charge say they are.

Though I do enjoy this thesis statement, "A miracle, whatever else it may be, is an event through which we become vividly and immediately conscious of God as acting towards us." Unfortunately it makes defining miracles even more undefined. I mean comon, generally a boy's first non-self-initiated orgasm could meet the criteria for a miracle under this statement!

In my opinion it boils down to 1. Something that is beyond explanation/understanding and potentially supernatural, 2. Related in some way to upholding catholic beliefs and/or causing a conversion to Catholicism, 3. Witnessed (first hand) by someone who is not on crack, and 4. Not repeatable. [5. Not real because at some point science will figure out how it happened. Like walking on water.]

So, back to @Sideon 's question regarding his three potential miracles. 1. No, 2. Iffy, but did you peek? and 3. This has merit.

Side note, did you know the Vatican has a football team??? I didn't! https://vatican.com/Vaticans-national-football-team/

Good morning! And no, still doesn't make sense to me, @ChefKate. Alas! 'Cause, see, the first listed criterion is "the individual must freely and voluntarily offer their life in the face of a certain and soon to come death."

Now, I guess everybody's death is certain. No way around that, really—eventually we all will die.

But in order to qualify for sainthood, the death you're facing has to be not only sure and certain, unavoidable and ineluctable, but also imminent. Like, you are, definitely, going to die aaany second now. You've got maybe a week to live, maybe a... does a month count as "soon"? Well, anyway, you don't have long and there's no way out. Your death is certain and soon to come.

But!

If you're definitely going to die, and any day now at that, then there's no way you have any way out, much less 80 years of life left ahead of you, is there!

If there's a way to escape death then it isn't certain.

If you've got 80 years of life left ahead of you then your death is not soon to come.