@hugonehugall perfectly agree with you!
I didn't tell him to do anything. That implies giving an order, which I clearly did not do. I suggested it, based on the fact that he is clearly upset by having people explain something.
Another man who evidently needs to learn to actually read what is right in front of him and not just what he wants to read.
@squeakytoy One of the definitions of projection: "the presentation or promotion of someone or something in a particular way"
Yeah I think I know what it means lol because that's exactly how I used the word.
Again, I didn't intentionally respond on a women only thread, it was an accident. I don't think I said anything incorrect or offensive. Next time I'll be more careful. Or just not take the bait.
You can call me a cynic and I wouldn’t have a problem with it, because for what I am about to say it would be apt. I think this entire thread to me is common sense. I already get all this. However, I think there is an education going on for some who may not be commenting—I think predators learn how to be better predators from these comments. Let’s face it, they do not care now, nor will they ever most likely—consent is merely a game piece to be avoided to win the objective. Learning how to circumnavigate triggers and intuition is merely a way to add more tools in their toolbox to achieve their objective. These are the people most likely to dissect and digest what makes women tick because they want to learn how to use that against them. It is never the woman’s fault; the reality is there are monsters out there and the entire reason why it is hard for women to discern one man from the next—monsters do not wear signs around their neck, it is not on their driver’s license, and it can’t be detected in their blood. It just is and I certainly have no answers for it.
Yes, that is the cynical view and it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Okay, so I avoided replying to the thread in order to actually answer the question it was asking but probably can answer it now. When you put the word ever as in have your instincts ever been wrong? Then yes. That's on the site and in general. But now sticking to the site...I only had bad instincts about meeting one guy because he gave me bad instincts that he might try something in person but he didn't! He only tries weird things in text and gets me uncomfortable which isn't as bad for me as in person. Now the guys (plural) that I had good instincts about have surprised me in person on 3 separate occasions. However, they are easy to talk to and settle things with. Communication is key. So now all is well....currently.
Every single time I have ignored my intuition raising a red flag, I have regretted it, without exception.
Just stepping in to say @CrizR is above and beyond respectful. He's was very aware of my comfort when we cuddled. An absolute gentleman any lady here would be lucky to cuddle.
Please give the guy a break guys, he's not a forum regular and maybe didn't realize how his post would cause such an uproar. I can say with absolute certainty his well intentioned post was not met with how he meant it.
That is all.
@FunCartel
It is never the woman’s fault; the reality is there are monsters out there and the entire reason why it is hard for women to discern one man from the next—monsters do not wear signs around their neck, it is not on their driver’s license, and it can’t be detected in their blood. It just is and I certainly have no answers for it. Yes, that is the cynical view and it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
It is never the woman’s fault; the reality is there are monsters out there and the entire reason why it is hard for women to discern one man from the next—monsters do not wear signs around their neck, it is not on their driver’s license, and it can’t be detected in their blood. It just is and I certainly have no answers for it.
Aptly put. We can educate as much as we want. That education will fall on deaf ears, it will be absorbed for nefarious purposes, and not everybody has the capacity to be taught not to do something. It’s wishful thinking to think we can educate and therefore eradicate abuse out of society. There will always be an outlier.
What we need to do is focus more on educating people about placing blame on the victim/survivor.
@Envie it's great that he is respectful in person but people found what he said to be problematic and you have to accept that.
Someone can be nice and still say problematic things sometimes. The two are not mutually exclusive.
@BuggleBear
I accept what he said. I'm just popping in to say go easy on him, he's not here to stir the pot or be a jerk, the intent behind his post did not match how it was perceived.
I'm done here, but I just had to come by and say I can attest to his intent and please don't let some misguided forum post keep any prospective cuddlers from cuddling with him. I'd hate to see words destroy someone's ability to find a cuddler whether it be an enthusiast or pro.
Good day all! 🥰
@Envie To add on to what you said, he has already said that he probably should have thought things through before he posted so I think that shows someone who is thinking things through with empathy. No need for anyone to pile on after that. I think his was a case of not being cognizant of how his post might be perceived and then becoming frustrated because how it was perceived was not what he meant. For the women it was victim blaming, which provoked understandable anger and without the ability to explain himself satisfactorily, it snowballed from there. Such is the imperfection of the written word and forums—a lot of context is not available.
@Catloaf What a remarkable post. Thank you for such a thoughtful commentary. @Amortentia and @Envie and @FunCartel Thanks for your commentary also. @BuggleBear and @squeakytoy I totally get your frustration and support your thoughts. I think in a face to face interaction this discussion would have been resolved quickly.
ps: I know I am not supposed to be on this thread but I feel if it is only for women then us guys lose the education. Bye
@Mmart lol I feel like that was probably the safest way to end your post before saying bye 😆
@Mmart Don't worry, I don't think any of us want men to refrain from commenting on this thread - I would just prefer if they didn't speak on our behalf, patronize us, etc. So you're doing fine.
@FunCartel I appreciate that you have a deep awareness of many of the issues we talked about in this thread. I do want to mention a few things about predators that I think a lot of guys don't realize, though.
From my experience of dealing with them for decades (starting at 13 years old), they don't seem to get any more sophisticated over time, or put in a lot of effort on learning new ways to manipulate women. The men who attempt to prey on women and girls today use pretty much the same tactics they always have - my mother, my grandmothers, my aunts, and pretty much all the young women and girls I talk to today are familiar with the same old crap. Yes, brilliant sociopaths exist, but most everyday would-be predators aren't that bright.
The reason most of them are successful is not that they're especially good at manipulating women. It's because
Chopping off their support at the roots solves both problems. It's one of the reasons I'm big on pointing out the stuff that sustains them. Disapproval/condemnation of their words and actions from other men is what ultimately stops their behavior. So please don't feel like there's nothing you can do, because there's actually a lot you can do!
This is hard to point to and put into words so bear with me.
Please don't kill me for being empathetic to both sides.
It actually might be hilarious if it wasn't so painful. Parts of women's conditioning are invisible to men - they just have no idea. Parts of men's conditioning are invisible to women - we just have no idea. Then we make simplistic comments to each other based on OUR experience that we are assuming is also THEIR experience. An analogy might be seeing someone complaining about the rain falling on them at an outdoor picnic. We can't see beneath the table that this person can't actually walk and so we say, "Oh, just get up and go inside!" We think we're being helpful. We're actually being annoying and condescending - as if the person hasn't thought of going inside?
The thing that men do where they give us well meaning advice based on our complaints, while totally missing the point, drives us mad. It's condescending. They actually think we need that simplistic help (just go inside, just use your words, just xyz) because we look that dumb to them within THEIR experience. We don't need that kind of help. We need respect, curiosity and listening. Hmmm, why is this person not getting out of the rain? Maybe it's because of SOMETHING I CAN'T SEE.
Within the ignorance, guys think they are being helpful and my experience is that they actually ARE trying to be helpful. Then they're mad that we gnash at them, and say, "I was only trying to help." But helping within a context where it's not help at all, it just sounds like the millionth time we've heard what sounds like "I think you're stupid and I'm going to blame you for your troubles" instead of "Gee, I wonder what's going on that that person at the picnic isn't standing up to get out of the rain."
Perfectly put.
@squeakytoy I understand what you are saying but you are assuming a lot about these guys. I do say something when I see it—I have worked with a few and their usual reaction is you do you. I can say I don’t approve and they say they are not looking for my approval. You are now assuming things are easily changed inside the boys club and that men listen to men. That is a hoot. What needs to be changed is parenting—my dad would slap the skin tone out of me if I was disrespectful to any female and that has stuck with me because he also modeled that behavior. In addition, my mom was none of the things some have described. She was opinionated, highly instinctual, strong and kind all at the same time. She was a self-made millionaire in a male dominated industry by the time she was 50. I saw her put many a man in his place. So I was fortunate to see an equitable relationship modeled in front of me and to understand where lines were.
On the flip side, my best friend had a dad who chased his mother outside nude with a butcher knife one time. Didn’t kill her, but he was violent and had several girlfriends he flaunted in front of him and his mother. My friend and I fell out in our twenties—different paths and priorities. He is in prison now for aggravated assault and rape. I wonder where he got that from?
Yes men can say stuff to other men, but you really, really have to reach them when they are boys.
Thanks @Bugglebear.
@FunCartel that's a bullshit way of saying that the way people were brought up negates them having free will and autonomy.
So this guy is in prison for aggravated assault and rape because his daddy didn't respect women? Nope. He is in prison for aggravated assault and rape because HE made a choice and HE couldn't control himself and his shitty behaviour.
There comes a point where people can't blame others for their bad actions and they have to accept that they made bad choices that negatively impacted the lives of themselves and people around them.
It's good if it starts young, but nobody is ever too old learn, and to grow, and make better choices.
@buggiebear not bullshit. Any psychologist will tell you that what is modeled in childhood affects who you are as an adult. Yes, he made a choice but you seem to be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Yes, I see you said it would be good to reach them in childhood but hear me out on this as I think we are coming at the same thing from two different viewpoints. If you want to really change anything with any gender, the most effective way is to reach them in childhood.
In addition cognitive studies have shown that it is easier to change learned behavior before the age of 30. After that it requires a real will and desire to change. It is the same thing as addictions—the person has to want to change. I am not saying they can’t learn, I am saying it is more efficient to reach a child than a forty year-old.
None of this negates what he did and his attitudes towards women is a big reason we parted ways, but he had it in his head how you look at women already at the age of 12. So yes, autonomy is there but his behavior was modeled for him very young.
Look at it this way, you have stated that men have screwed you over and you have a bad intuition about people. And you are obviously angry about it. Why don’t you make an autonomous decision to stop being angry? Yup, it is not that easy, nor would I expect you to just shut it off.
So no, I am not absolving men of their bad behavior, I was suggesting the best way to correct it permanently. One of my pet solutions is to incorporate gender communication and case studies into sex education—it really doesn’t take that long to explain bumping nasties, so why not invest some of the time into social learning about respect, consent, and empathy. Especially in a society living their lives through social media and losing the “human” touch. Give some of these people the tools—there is a reason why many rapists and domestic violence offenders opt for chemical castration. They will do it again, which proves my point—some adults REFUSE to learn—they do not think it is possible to change because all they have ever been taught is to take what you want. Unfortunately, I do not think there is the political will in this country to invest in early education gender topics.
I hope this clarifies that I am merely offering up possible solutions and discussion as that is how education works. I am definitely not dealing in “bullshit.”
@FunCartel What I've said is not just based on my own personal experiences - there's plenty of research to back it up as well. I don't know if you've read "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft, but he's an expert in this area (working with abusive/controlling/predatory men). Just reading that one book can point you toward tons of the type of research I'm talking about, but you can google for it as well. Not gonna lie, I'm kinda disappointed that you blew off what I said so quickly in favor of your own experiences dealing with these kind of men, as a man, especially considering what we've all been talking about in this thread
As a side note, I said that disapproval/condemnation of these mens' words and actions from other men is what ultimately stops their behavior - I never said it was easy, and I never said the results were immediate. I imagine a lot of these guys would have to face complete social ostracization before the message sunk in. But I guarantee you that they still have more respect for you as a human being than they have for women. Well, assuming they haven't tried to drug, grope, stalk, or rape you some time after you voiced disapproval of their actions.
It's also worth saying that a lot of abusive men will try to blame their behaviors on their upbringing if they're actually backed into a corner and held accountable for their actions. Hell, they'll blame it on a lot of other stuff too - anger problems, women, addictions, etc. Don't fall for it. The issue is their feelings of entitlement and superiority toward women. Plenty of people were poorly raised, yes, but plenty of people get therapy after 30 and are able to work through their problems. If a boy's father models disgusting behavior toward his mother, yes, it will absolutely influence the way he sees women. But the onus is on him to change his behavior as an adult, and that most likely won't happen without immense social pressure.
I do agree we need to teach boys to respect women early, but the predatory men do have to be dealt with as well - dismissing them as hopeless in favor of focusing on the next generation isn't going to help the girls and women who have to deal with predatory men every day. We can't exactly ignore these guys.
@woodRN: I'm not a lady, but I think instincts are honed through experience—if they're alerted, I'd say it's definitely worth a listen.
Your instincts are your own, I think. You know what experiences have informed them; you know how often ignoring them has been a good or a bad idea. They're your instincts, I'd say, not anybody else's (though other women's have probably also been honed by experiences at least similar to yours).
All but one of my cuddles through this website have been with men. None of them gave me a bad feeling until bad behavior hit. Only one was a person I'd be happy to cuddle again. (Say, @revan, if you ever visit this site again: you're awesome!)
My instincts aren't particularly sharp in this area.
Personally, I'd rather take the risk of cuddling somebody even if my instincts said they were up to no good—but that may well be because I'm not especially wise. Is missing out on a good cuddle really worse than missing out on a bad one?
TL;DR It's definitely possible for instincts to be wrong, but the more experience you get the less likely I'd guess that is. And either way, it's safest to say "no" if you're unsure, yeah?
@squeakytoy: The "training boys to respect women" thing hit me with a memory of childhood involving respect for women as the weaker sex, conditioned around seeing them as precious stereotypes no matter how they behaved or what they wanted, with undertones of disgust towards women who weren't properly feminine (but still treat them with respect! maybe they'll be drawn back into the fold if they're just treated right).
Changing that, I think, will absolutely require cultural change in adults as well as children.
You know, I was never trained to respect men that way! You call older men "sir" and listen when they speak because that's what everyone else does; you defer to men in a position of authority no matter what their age because everyone else does; and so on.
Setting up that environment to include women definitely needs as many really respectful men as possible: lectures don't work nearly as well as peer pressure.
@DarrenWalker Agreed about instincts being honed by experience! Actually, you reminded me of a really cool article I read a while back called The Predictions of Dopamine. It talks about how dopamine spikes and lows can shape your intuition, making your brain pick up tiny, subtle cues in your environment that follow or break a pattern you're familiar with, and give you an immediate blast of emotion to indicate whether it expects another spike (good thing happening) or drop (shitty thing happening).
I just realized why you used a spoiler for the rest of the message, and I think it's a good idea so I'm doing the same. I feel so rude for going so far off-topic in this thread now!!
I entirely agree with you on every point you made here, seriously. This is an area where huuuuge cultural changes are needed. I'm sorry to hear that your upbringing involved so much conditioning toward seeing women that way, but I'm relieved that you saw it for what it is and chucked it in File 13
@squeakytoy: Awesome article! I'd never seen it before, and it's a really good illustration of how intuition works—Riley had so much experience with the radar that his brain was subconsciously tracking stuff he wasn't even aware of seeing. And then it goes into the why and how... man, that's so cool. Thanks!
I kinda debated whether or not to use a spoiler, since the thread had already basically changed topics, but in the end I figured it might be a good idea since I was addressing the original topic as well as the new one.
I've tried real hard to chuck the bad parts of my upbringing! It's a conscious effort, though, and I default to the original way more than I'd like. Like @FunCartel says: it's tough to kick your early, base-level programming! Especially when you're surrounded by a culture that reinforces it. Change isn't going to come easily—it's gonna take a lot of people doing a lot of work.
Still. I think it's worth the effort, even if it turns out that some people really are lost causes.
@squeakytoy I didn’t blow off your argument. It was essentially what @buggiebear was saying—and you are not wrong. However that is a reactive approach. What I was pitching is a proactive approach. Both are needed, but if you only react to each man that offends individually, the problem is endless. If you attempt to implement education in the formative years you introduce both the education and the peer pressure to not do these things at a much earlier age in a highly social arena. Don’t mistake an alternative approach as a blow off to your argument so quickly. Likewise, as I said, I cut off ties to toxic people if they ignore my condemnation. But words from other men also just teach them to pick their spots—they know now to hide it. They may then only manifest when a woman is alone with them. So it’s not foolproof—nor is the childhood approach. But being proactive can prevent a lot of bad behavior before it ever happens. It is why reading at a young age is so critical to later success in life—the mind is molded early.
You are not wrong, nor am I, but I believe in my approach in the long term versus stamping out the fires after they already started. That’s all. I would suggest reading The Respectful School which touches on a whole slew of social issues that can be taught or look at the website teachconsent.org. There is a slew of support for early education. Unfortunately, most of the advice is directed on how a teacher can work it in within the context of current classroom curriculum because spending money on teaching social values of respect and consent is anathema to the more powerful educational decision makers. Actually, from this end of things—educational policy—everyone can voice their support—men and women—for education of the next generation. Until then, yeah I guess shaming is the best tool to get them to stop but that education comes after much damage has occurred.
@FunCartel: We don't have to pick just one approach, though, right? Seems to me our best shot at changing things would be doing both at once—giving kids the right stuff from the get go and adjusting adult behavior with social pressure.
@DarrenWalker I didn’t say that. You usually dissect everything. I said you need both. Reread.
@squeakytoy I didn’t blow off your argument. It was essentially what @buggiebear was saying—and you are not wrong. However that is a reactive approach. What I was pitching is a proactive approach. Both are needed
Also:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/preventing-sexual-harassment-needs-to-start-in-early-childhood/2017/11/03/10b7ba9a-bd8c-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html
@FunCartel: Oh. Missed that. Yeah, I need breakfast.
Both are definitely needed: education in childhood would be undermined by an adult culture in which women are casually disrespected, and adult correction is unmistakably difficult when your upbringing's given you bad beliefs, habits of thought and action, etc.
Edit: As a side note, her name's BuggleBear. With an L.
@FunCartel you know you're tagging the wrong person, right? Some poor unsuspecting person is going to get notifications that they have been dragged into this instead of me.