Unwanted Touch - in General

MxSmith

A lot of the discussions we have on this forum about unwanted touch is about men touching women sexually when it's supposed to be a platonic experience. I'd like to actually broaden the conversation and talk about unwanted touch in general.

I've been consent educated for many years now, but I've just started to become hyperaware of the amount of unwanted touch people (and animals) put up with in their regular lives on a daily basis (probably because its my job to pay attention to touch boundaries). Women get a lot of unwanted sexual touch, but I'd like to open the floor for people to talk about the unwanted touch that we all experience as part of cultural norms. For example: tickling, dunking, giving really violent hugs, jabbing someone in the ribs. What kinds of culturally normal touch do you hate? How do you set boundaries for yourself (or do you?). Yesterday I screamed at a man at the beach for repeatedly dunking a three year old (who was fighting for his life) into the ocean. His reply was "he's my child". I'd like to normalize setting boundaries around unwanted touch, and that goes for ALL unwanted touch, not just the unusual ones. Children, animals, male bodies, female bodies and everything in between. We all get to say NO to Aunt Lily who likes to plant a wet one on our foreheads.

sunnysideup

Luckily, I haven’t had to deal with much of what you’re describing. If anything, I go through life with very little of any kind of contact with another living being. It’s part of the reason I’m on this site. If anyone hugs me, they are likely good friends with me and so wouldn’t bother me.

Sometimes, friends dogs sniff around my crotch, which I don’t really appreciate - I just push them away or ask the owner to restrain them. That’s the only thing I can think of right now. Sometimes I also wonder if friends dogs are enjoying or just tolerating my petting them. Cats seem to make it a bit more clear.

@MxSmith i applaud you for standing up for your principles! Might advise to call 911 if someone’s life is in danger as it’s safer for all involved that way!

Would like to add that in general, even the best intentioned of us may cross a boundary or make someone uncomfortable at some point. A well intentioned person would immediately end the causal behavior or try to be aware of the cues/make themselves approachable enough to have that kind of dialogue.

Hugs, and huggers (people who feel the sick need to hug everyone), irritate me greatly. I deal with these sorts of creatures by saying "No thank you." However, that's hardly ever good enough for them. They'll say something along the lines of "Oh come onnn", or begin their open-armed approach, at which point I'll tell them (in incredibly graphic detail) about the sexual assault I experienced as a child and how it might have had an impact on my psyche. That often dissuades them. If I'm lucky they'll look horrified or apologetic—that pleases me very much. One of these days I want to say "Keep your social defects to yourself, please." One day.

I also don't understand handshakes. What magic is there in shaking a humans' hand?

CuddleDuncan

@DarkLordChungus handshakes are viscerally powerful and very important. They convey a great deal of meaning.

Handshakes are about trust. About communication. It's very old - goes right back to the earliest historica records. The glib explanation is the 'empty hand showing no weapon' thing and that's true as far as it goes, but a handshake is much deeper than that.

Firstly, you have to be really close to somebody to shake their hand. Trust. Then you have to be willing to touch them. Trust. And let them touch you. Trust. And then, worst of all, let them take a grip of you. Huge amount of trust. The deal is that the whole thing is mutual.

If I had lived 300 years ago, and you meaningfully refused to shake my hand, I would have killed you on the spot. Why? Because that is what you are threatening to do. It's pre-emptive self defence. A handshake is a formalised and physical expression of 'I won't kill you if you won't kill me.' If you won't do it, you must be contemplating killing me. And it's public, everybody can see if you are shaking hands, it's a very distinctive gesture. So it's a public promise not to kill each other, at least not here and now.

So the magic is this: it means that at the end of this interaction we will both be alive.

Catloaf

So I like to watch videos of cats like most sane people on the internet. Something I notice a lot is people thinking it’s cute when a kitten or cat is holding onto something, or when it’s in “fight mode”, and constantly trying to agitate it so it makes for cute content. I know to most people this would seem benign but it’s something that just kind of hit me. The cat doesn’t like it and is communicating “stop it” in the best way it can. Why are you continuing to do it?

And then I think about the broader issues. The meat, leather, and fur industries for example. Animals do not consent to a lot of things we do to them. Where do we draw the line? They’re not capable of communicating the way we do. Even if they were though, I don’t think that would stop people from harming them sadly.

Note: I’m not asking anybody to stop doing or eating the things they like. This is my own opinion. I just think we need to be more aware of these things, and at least acknowledge that they’re going on. And if we’re not afraid and have an open mind, we should do more things to curb the way we treat animals, and ask ourselves if it’s right.

@CuddleDuncan

I get the historical significance behind handshakes. Somehow, though, I don't think it's something that most people take into account when offering their hand for a shake.

I bought a fellow who was down on his luck a pack of cigarettes recently. He extended his hand out to me while thanking me profusely. I didn't know him in the slightest. I nodded politely at him.

Hopefully the guy won't invade my fiefdom, steal my sheep, and gut me with a dirk anytime soon.

Yeah, handshakes suck.

As somebody with senses a bit too dang sharp for my own good, a handshake is just plain awful. But if you turn one down, people get insulted and angry or hurt! It's this huge social thing that I could really do without.

And that's not even mentioning the hand-crushers. Stupid dominance game.

@DarrenWalker

Hand-crushers are uniquely annoying. Why do these dudes have to make their micropenises my problem? Bizarre.

MxSmith

@CuddleDuncan you are invalidating @DarkLordChungus's dislike of handshakes by explaining to him why the cultural context is important. He actually doesn't need to feel obligated to ever touch anyone ever. The whole point of this post is about how we culturally pressure each other to abandon our own bodily autonomy and comfort levels to please others. @CuddleDuncan is there a kind of touch you dislike but put up with because its normal? Forget the "shoulds".

cuddles_ndream

@MxSmith Thank you for considering another angle in this subject , & including / being an advocate to animals as well …. One of the cats that have come into my life as of recent does not like to be carried/ pet / caressed (all the above)… so we’ve stopped, but now that we have stopped we realized that she actually loves to 💕 , but on her terms & when she’s comfortable … she’ll come up to you & brush her body against yours & if you’re laying on the couch 🛋 she would come up & cuddle against you or snuggle under your arms … this is amazing you bring this up! we all have our boundaries regardless if adults / children / animals / teens / ect and no matter the context (friends / families / acquaintance/ relationship ect)

“ We all get to say NO to Aunt Lily who likes to plant a wet one on our foreheads.” lol this made me laugh, my oldest sister absolutely loves to plant a wet one on your forehead or your cheeks & it is very uncomfortable to the point I would start backing away, she got offended & ask why am I pulling back & I told her simply that it just feels uncomfortable, (I stayed uncomfortable for many many years so to her this was the norm) she got the point as it has been years since she hasn’t done it, & my other sisters would tell her the same lol

Amazing post! 🌌

Lovelight

@MxSmith I don't see invalidation there because @DarkLordChungus said "I also don't understand handshakes. What magic is there in shaking a humans' hand?" So @CuddleDuncan simply explained the 'magic' behind it.

MxSmith

@Lovelight I see! I missed that. Well then carry on just know it doesn't matter how magic something is supposed to be. If you don't like it, there's no explanation necessary. Just "I don't like it" is enough.

Lovelight

I don't usually * put up with unwanted touch. Apart from exceptions, I tell the person I do not want it. Though one time a girl (we were like teenagers) would hit me * and it hurt * (maybe it happened just once) when she spoke. I suppose that's the norm for her (maybe not common with many) and perhaps I am more sensitive to such type of contact. Though for whatever reason, I couldn't tell her it was unwanted. I did however distance myself from her. So while exceptions happen, I generally try not to accept or put up with unwanted touch. There was also one case where I didn't like (not hate) the person or at least barely wanted anything to do with him. Though he was with someone else who greeted me (I think offered me a handshake). Then he too did, I didn't want it to turn into a huge issue or make whatever issue I had with him look bigger than it actually is by refusing the handshake. I wasn't uncomfortable with it, I just didn't want it. Though made the decision to go through with it. I did however, signal to him that it was unwanted. So he never offered it to* me again. 😊

@MxSmith for sure!

CuddleWho

Luckily, I haven’t had to deal with much of what you’re describing. If anything, I go through life with very little of any kind of contact with another living being. It’s part of the reason I’m on this site.

For better or worse, I think this is likely the experience of the large majority of men on this site. It's very hard to relate to the idea of wanting people to touch me less.

I have had a couple experiences in my life of women touching me in ways that many people would deem inappropriate or unwanted. For instance, I had a female colleague who used to put her hands all over my body while talking to me. At work. But honestly, I never really minded. I like being touched, people are generally welcome to touch me, and if somebody really manages to do something I don't like, I'll tell them to stop.

Lovelight

I consider handshakes to be mini hugs. If coming from people I want it from it makes me feel happy. I am sure it makes others happy in such context too. So there's one other 'magic'. How someone shakes someone's hand may also convey one's confidence and comfort with the person.

PeopleLikeUs

I have a friend that I made the mistake of mentioning cuddling to. We visit about once a year, and I became hesitant this summer because she made it clear she for sure wants to cuddle. I should have never mentioned it. I have other friends that I have turned on to cuddle culture but have never engaged only because of the unspoken subtext that comes into play. So in this case, I have decided to cuddle this particular friend even though I am repulsed at the thought. I am even going completely all out so that when it's over, I can say to myself "job well done." I am going to make sure she feels everything a good cuddle has to offer and put my own wants and needs aside. She lives in the filthiest apartment I've ever seen. Aside from all of this, I love her to death.

hugonehugall

I’ve never really experienced a ton of what you would consider “ unwanted touch “ in my life which I guess is good.
On the handshake thing it’s also become the norm in professional settings as well , at the start or end of an interview or meeting it’s basically expected that one party or another will extend their hand for a handshake as a sign of respect or confirmation that some sort of agreement has been reached. While we may not always want to shake these peoples hands for one reason or another I doubt it’s a good idea to reject such gesture unfortunately.

Mare_Bear

This happens to all kinds of people but I would guess that women get the most unwanted touch if we broke it down. I've never seen a man put his hand on the small of the back of another man while passing in a hallway or aisle but it happens to women a lot, even between strangers.

I'm aware that I have been part of the problem, the line, "I'm a hugger!" is innocent sounding but it is intrusive, it leaves the hugee no chance to say no or have bodily autonomy. I encourage everyone who is able to take a class or training around consent, boundaries, or pro cuddling to do it and learn more about this.

When I go out to a club where I see people I know I now I ask, "Would you like a hug?" to people who know I am a pro cuddler and many have stated they appreciate my asking these days. Not with outstretched arms but with a neutral composure that does not pressure them to say yes. Do not be afraid of No! Embrace it (haha).

In COVID times I did not get within six feet of someone to elbow bump, that did not make sense to me. I adopted the the hand on heart with a slight bow which I learned from Justin Trudeau as the correct way to greet a Muslim woman who does not wish to shake hands. I have started doing this in all situations where I don't want to hug and if you can do this before the hands pops out for a shake it can be easily squashed. Shows respect for self and the other person.

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https://twitter.com/sarasoueidan/status/748953000203345920

b0nfire

@Mare_Bear Great bit of information about greeting Hijabi – I’m about to do this for everyone in lieu of handshakes!

I have experienced more harmful, even violent forms of unwanted touch in my life, but even before then, I was generally touch-averse until I had a chance to assess the situation. It doesn’t necessarily have to be “shake my hand so I see you’re unarmed” level of trust, but if someone I’ve never met before starts walking towards me with their arms open expecting a hug, I’m likely to tense up. My mom is an equal opportunity won’t-take-no-for-an-answer hugger and it’s always made me a little uncomfortable. Touch means so much more to me when there’s a base of established trust, and touch without that established base has been more likely to cause harm in my experience.

Catloaf

@Mare_Bear I have a Muslim stepfather, who is from Pakistan. I also had a partner for 9 years who followed Islam and he was from Afghanistan. I was never told about or shown this. So I’ve learned something new today, thank you. 😁 I’m going to use it as often as I can. Though I do nod at people frequently already.

Amortentia

Wow that is kind of cute and respectful with doing a hand on the chest to show respect to a woman like that. I personally like it or when curtsies are done too lol. I think all that is just cute. I guess it is just always best to ask before you try and respect their way especially if it is a religious issue when it comes to any type of touch. Some people won't even do handshakes ever so best to know to avoid an awkward moment. I also remember that I prefer it myself if they ask first but would usually do a handshake or hug even if they just go for it. I remember in the past (none cuddlers on this first one) I would be taken by surprise when someone asked, "May I kiss your hand"? (on top of hand during a greeting) or "May I hold your hand?" it always caught me off guard but in a nice surprising way. They don't even say "can" but "may" so even careful on the proper word lol. So yeah those are all cute little things I think. Now makes me want to learn more about Muslim women and other religions when it comes to things like that and now wanting to watch Princess Diaries from all this lol.

MountainCuddles

The first thing we have to do is stop mutilating infant boys, which is blatant sexual assault. If we want to abolish unwanted touch, let's start with unwanted sexual mutilation.

dontremember

A friend of mine is touch-averse. She won't hug anyone if she can possibly avoid it, largely because she gets asthma attacks from perfumes, sweat, smoke, fresh-cut grass and other things. I've seen people walk up, say Hi and expect a hug. If she does hug, it's generally one of those leaning-forward, shoulder-to-shoulder, pat-on-the-back, minimal contact kind of hugs. I've told her she can use me as a shield if she needs to, just retreat behind me or start up an intense conversation with me about nothing much until the prospective hugger goes away. If her husband is around, it's up to him to deal with that, but if he's not, I'll look after her like she was my little sister.

And then there was that one time she spontaneously gave me a big solid hug, definitely not just shoulder-to-shoulder. I'm still baffled by that. Her choice, though. I was definitely not standing there looking like i wanted a hug. I've known for years that that's not a thing she does.

applepie55

This is a good story to read:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=485625955803874&id=100030694223175

As a child, I was forced to hug family members and it always made me super uncomfortable. When I was 12, I decided to speak up and say "no." I was scolded and it really turned me off from hugging any others in general. I'm not one to touch others regularly or want to interact with adults; but that's why this community is so important to me. It's finally a consent based situation.

I know most family remembers have good intentions when they swoop up a child and squish them in a hug but it shows children that their feeling dont matter.
I actually got into an argument with an ex because he would squish his nephew in his arms even when the little boy was screaming and kicking to get away. He said "I'm just showing him I love him," and I asked him to think of it from his perspective. Was he enjoying it? Is that what he is going to equate love to- uncomfortable? Fortunately, my ex understood in the end and now asks his nephew for hugs and respects him when he says no.

Catloaf

The first thing we have to do is stop mutilating infant boys, which is blatant sexual assault. If we want to abolish unwanted touch, let's start with unwanted sexual mutilation.

@MountainCuddles Infant girls too. Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s “Infidel”. Her experience breaks my heart.

quixotic_life

One for me is the unexpected arm across the back with their hand cupped on my shoulder. [shutters] No thank you!

As far as the hand shake, I go with the side step, 'whoops' didn't notice approach. There are just way too many variants in how another's hand feels or might hold mine. So nope. Plus germs. Just eww.

Ahmedali999

There are some women touch men sexually and talk soft to get money from them it's both sides not only men

My entire life as a male child was one long experience of being touched in ways I would far prefer to have avoided.

From being required to hug the aunts, to roughhousing with the uncles, to being forced into martial sports, and being constantly bullied and beaten by the larger male children around.

All of it absolutely sucked, and here is the damage it did: It was absolutely needed to teach me how to defend myself, both socially and physically, in the painful world I inhabit.

Lovelight

@PeopleLikeUs "She lives in the filthiest apartment I've ever seen. Aside from all of this, I love her to death."

Perhaps she is depressed or going through a very difficult time? If you care so much about her, you could try having a talk with her about it, offering to help her some way with getting it cleaned up or something. And helping her to find resources for mental health or something. And another suggestion, doing public cuddles for the time being, so that you aren't so uncomfortable. What do you think?

What you do for her may not fix the issue long term, though it could help her know that that there is someone who cares and really shows it. And maybe that'll give her the emotional boost she needs to get it together. At least try to find a middle ground because I am concerned it may build resentment at some point to not.

Ironman294

@Mare_Bear i didn’t know that’s how you greet woman in the muslim world. That’s a sign of respect it appears Trudeau has, now if he would have only learned how to respect black and brown people by not being racist and dressed in black and brown face that would very important. I mean racism is disgusting especially when you try and mask it with virtue signaling.

PeopleLikeUs

@Lovelight Sometimes love isn't pretty. But thanks! I think a cuddle will be plenty. Plus I tend to care take, so it's not entirely without some reward. I will leave and our friendship will be hightened. I'm good at saying no too. But this cuddle will take some sacrifice.