Under Attack! At the Mercy of Bullies.

"Am I under attack?" It's a question that many ask themselves in this age of instant communication. Now, comrades and friends, never ask yourself that question again. Replace your fear and uncertainty with knowledge!

Here's a helpful scenario to help you discern whether or not someone is being attacked or bullied:

Jack has shared an idea or an opinion. Margaret points out that said idea is problematic. Perhaps the idea is a generalization. Possibly it's not. Crucially, however, the idea is not supported by evidence. An example follows.

"Seatbelts in cars don't save lives," Jack says.

"That's incorrect. In fact, that's insane," Margaret says.

Has Margaret just bullied Jack? While you might be inclined to answer "yes", the correct answer is "no". Margaret has not bullied Jack. Margaret has critiqued the ludicrous idea that Jack has shared.

"Now wait a dang second!" you say, veins bulging. "She said that it's 'insane'! That's rude! She's attacking Jack!"

No, dear friend. You see, the statement that seatbelts don't save lives holds no water whatsoever. There are mountains of evidence that disprove it. An attack would be something like this:

"That's incorrect. In fact, that's insane. You possess a donkey's brain, Jack."

Now that last sentence right there—that is an attack. Not on the idea that Jack shared, but on Jack himself. It's an important distinction to make, pal. And many often fail to make this distinction. So here it is, laid out and crystal clear:

Criticizing ideas is not the same as criticizing people.

Every idea can and should be criticized. This is a fine way to discern whether an idea is good or not.

If you disagree, if this concept bothers you in any way, it might be a good idea for you to never speak to anyone ever again. If you are unable to dole out criticism—or to receive it—without an emotional response, then communicating with other humans might not be for you.

"But criticism of my ideas hurts my feelings!" you may argue. "I am my ideas!" you may feel. "My ideas are my identity!"

Then, my friend, you may need to work on your ideas (and your identity). Introspection could benefit you greatly.

And now we reach our final point. If your response to criticism is to lash out in an emotional manner, this does not make you right. You are not proven correct by having a tantrum, by becoming morose, or anything else. Appeals to emotion are not insightful, thought-provoking, or profound.

If your ideas can't stand on their own without a foundation of emotion, that is bad.

It doesn't facilitate discussion, which is what a forum is all about. It is presumptuous and condescending, as it places your ideas above criticism, and expects everyone else to comply.

In short: if the attack is directed at your ideas rather than at you, you are not being attacked!

Congratulations.

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Comments

  • You had me until you called me pal, bud.

    You are not proven correct by having a tantrum

    Pretty sure the louder you are, the more correct you are.
    Also when you're loud, you now can be called "everyone" instead of just "that one person".

    But in all seriousness (yes, I was just kidding above, for the most part) (also as serious as my all seriousness can get, which is not very), your post was very well written.

    Thanks for sharing your ideas.

  • Bullying is when an older child beats up a younger child and takes their lunch money. I don’t think the term should be applied to adults.

  • @dave31415 Bullying also consists of verbal/emotional abuse, online harassment, etc.

  • Bullying requires the bully to have more power than the victim, whether that power is in muscles (greater physical strength) or position (can have you fired, banned, etc).

    That's what makes the difference between bullying and simple conflict.

  • I love the wholesome terms you use to explain this. Golly!

  • edited January 2022

    For those who don't feel like clicking the link above: Yes, it's a thing children do. Same as ever, just with a modern twist.

    To quote the article:

    Cyberbullying has unique concerns in that it can be:

    Persistent – Digital devices offer an ability to immediately and continuously communicate 24 hours a day, so it can be difficult for children experiencing cyberbullying to find relief.

    Permanent – Most information communicated electronically is permanent and public, if not reported and removed. A negative online reputation, including for those who bully, can impact college admissions, employment, and other areas of life.

    Hard to Notice – Because teachers and parents may not overhear or see cyberbullying taking place, it is harder to recognize.

    All states have laws requiring schools to respond to bullying. As cyberbullying has become more prevalent with the use of technology, many states now include cyberbullying, or mention cyberbullying offenses, under these laws. Schools may take action either as required by law, or with local or school policies that allow them to discipline or take other action. Some states also have provisions to address bullying if it affects school performance.

    Kids these days, huh?


    Edit: An interesting enough article. Doesn't have much to do with the criticism of beliefs, ideas, and statements, though.

  • edited January 2022

    Actually I think there are a lot of adults that bully other adults. I WISH it never applied to adults!!! 😂😂😂

    @HogboblinZwei I really appreciate your post! Very well explained and thought out. Thank you!! I also appreciate you putting it simply..... so we can hear you. If we are so entrenched in our ideas and our identity is wrapped up in them we will never be able to find truth/facts as opposed to opinion or subjective notions. Thank you thank you thank you for sharing.

    I wonder if there would be less anger in the world if we could detach our identity from our ideas…. Just a little bit. 🤨

    Criticizing ideas is **NOT ** the same as criticizing people.

    Edit..... @DaringSprinter You are right that children and cyberbullying isn't quite the same as maybe what happens here in a forum with adults sharing ideas and thoughts.
    I was thinking about what you said

    Doesn't have much to do with the criticism of beliefs, ideas, and statements though.

    I have to disagree. I think it is WHERE children learn to either find their identity in their ideas (i.e. what clothes are popular? Do you play sports? Are you interested in reading big books or math?) or have an idea/belief separate from their identity. If we can teach children the things that @HogboblinZwei is showing here, then maybe those children will grow up learning how to have self confidence in WHO they are as opposed to being defined by what they believe or what they do. (This is so thought provoking!!!! Thank you as well. 😊)

  • I agree that bullying is about someone exploiting a power imbalance. I was on the receiving end of that kind of thing for the last decade and a half of my marriage. Once I had been knocked off balance emotionally, my (now ex) wife pressed her advantage, blaming everything on my "chemical imbalance." It's amazing how quickly I regained that balance after my divorce.

  • @JoyfulHeart Yes, a bad marriage is like a bad splinter. Get rid of it and you're amazed at how much better you feel. You will still have problems and troubles, like everyone else, but at least you don't have to have them with that person around.

  • I agree largely to what the OP mentioned. I understand that the point of the OP's post was to show that not everything is bullying, and I completely agree that we should not always be too "emotional" about it. This is something I am currently working on in my life. I would like to add on to it one more thing though, that not everything we encounter in our day-to-day lives are as crystal clear as "seats belts being safe or not". There are myriads of opinions and beliefs, and some hold on to theirs very very strongly. For example, some believe in an existence of God, for others it is "insane". For some, vaccines are life-saving while for others it is "insane". Personally, whatever my belief systems may be (some of them I strongly believe in), I would avoid using these strong terms in conversations because that tends to completely negate the other person's belief system or opinions instead of willing to have a conversation about it.

    youtube.com/watch?v=rTNaRZlT6GU

    I am reminded of this scene from Friends between Ross and Phoebe. Eventually, Phoebe does become a bully herself, but I really loved the point that she made about leaving some room for another possibility, or a conversation. Because otherwise there is neither a discussion nor a conversation, and only statements being made. Using some of the OP's own words, these statements then would not be insightful, thought-provoking, or profound.

    If you disagree, if this concept bothers you in any way, it might be a good idea for you to never speak to anyone ever again. If you are unable to dole out criticism—or to receive it—without an emotional response, then communicating with other humans might not be for you.

    This did seem more like an attack on people, than on their ideas. I personally think, the OP's point would be sent across even without this paragraph in their post. I think posting this paragraph does lose of the audience and consequently some of the discussion that could possibly happen. But that is me, I am sure there would be people that beg to differ, and I respect that.

    Criticizing ideas is not the same as criticizing people.

    I wholeheartedly agree to this statement. Also, criticism must be constructive. In the seatbelts example, the OP called the idea "insane" which was a good example of screaming at the idea than at the person. But at the crux of using the word, what would we call or think of the person who has such an "insane" idea?

    (I understand insane is used with a positive connotation too. I talked only of the negative connotation in my comment of the post)

  • I disagree that criticism needs to be “constructive.” The alternative is not necessarily “destructive.”

    If something is nonsense there’s nothing wrong with calling it nonsense. I don’t think a criticism needs to be anything except correct and on topic.

    There is a time and place for constructive criticism but it’s not always necessary nor is it always relevant.

    One of the most important things to understand is that we are not our ideas. An attack on an idea is not an attack on the person. Simple. If everyone were taught this from an early age our conversations on controversial topics (and even a lot of non-controversial topics) would go a lot more smoothly and might actually get somewhere.

    If we have a position and someone challenges it, we should welcome the opportunity to plainly state why we have that position and defend it. If we’re offended, what does that say about us that we find explaining our position to be offensive? If we can’t or won’t we essentially have admitted we can’t defend our position.

    When people criticize “tone” they are criticizing style and avoiding substance. It’s a thinly disguised personal attack meant to sidestep the issue. It’s been successfully used against anti-war protesters, civil rights activists, and feminists, to try to avoid dealing with the real issues being raised and, instead, focus on whether they are being presented in a socially acceptable style. It’s the last resort of those who can’t defend their position, an admission of defeat. That’s why I never entertain complaints about tone.

    I do wish that schools taught critical thinking, debate, and did a better job of teaching basic science. I’ve thought about starting a thread on common logical fallacies because when the conversations get heated, they pop up like mushrooms after a rain and it would be nice if we could avoid them. Wouldn’t it be awesome if we could have really productive conversations instead of having them deteriorate into train wrecks and then have to shut them down? Or am I chasing unicorns?

  • edited January 2022

    @spreadjoy There is an fundamental difference between believing in a god, and believing in vaccines. The existence of god can not be tested. It can neither be proven nor disproven. The facts can not be debated, because the belief is not based on facts.

    The belief in the safety and efficacy of vaccines is based on facts. The statistical evidence behind the belief can, and has been be tested. On the other hand, I have yet to see any evidence presented to support either belief that vaccines are not safe, or that they are not effective.

  • @Babichev In general, I agree with what you just said. However, there are occasionally times when an idea is so completely absurd that refuting the idea almost certainly involves the suggestion the the person presenting the idea is either lacking in intelligence, or lacking in intellectual honesty.

    I can recall a time when somebody was trying to convince me that evolution is impossible. His first argument was "since the earthy is less than 6,000 years old. that much evolution was impossible." His second argument was "you can't expect a tornado to blow through a junkyard and produce a 747." I was tempted to tell him that he was an idiot, but instead, I just turned and walked away without saying anything.

  • Yes. Sometimes I want to ask, “Are you really, really stupid or just a liar?” Which would be worse? Since there’s no polite way of asking the question I don’t. So far I’ve managed to restrain myself.

    I see no point in trying to have a conversation with someone who is not arguing in good faith. The exception is in some forums (especially professional ones) where I know others who are interested are reading and will potentially benefit from the answers. I have a bit of notoriety in my professional and I have quite literally gotten messages from people around the world who have thanked me because they learned something useful from what I wrote and it set them on the path of seeking evidence. I, too, have learned from others having such discussions so in those cases I think it can be worth engaging.

    Someone like you mentioned is not arguing in good faith. Their mind is made up. They have almost zero understanding of science or evolution in spite of benefitting from it in their daily life. The amount of work it would take to get them to the point where they could understand the flaws in their reasoning would be enormous IF they really wanted to understand and they have not indicated they are interested in understanding, they think they already know what they need to know. At that point the best option is to walk away.

    I’ve seen pseudoscience enthusiasts with a very low level of science literacy argue with actual physicists about quantum physics. Stunning. It’s not that I’ve never stuck my foot in my mouth but I’m pretty good at recognizing when someone knows more about a subject than I do at which point I shut up and listen.

  • @Babichev

    When people criticize “tone” they are criticizing style and avoiding substance. It’s a thinly disguised personal attack meant to sidestep the issue. It’s been successfully used against anti-war protesters, civil rights activists, and feminists, to try to avoid dealing with the real issues being raised and, instead, focus on whether they are being presented in a socially acceptable style. It’s the last resort of those who can’t defend their position, an admission of defeat. That’s why I never entertain complaints about tone.

    I understand what you are saying. I read your other reply too, and I agree to you at some level. What I do not agree to is the absolutes being used. You are right in saying that there are times when people criticize "tone" as a last resort. But is it always the case? I do not think so. You could put some number to it followed by %, or say "most of the people", but it is never always the case.

    The point of my post was not to condemn the tone, or to justify being offended always or being emotional always. I do agree to the OP fully on those points. My point was the usage of strong words like "nonsense", "insane", "absurd" while discussing a topic or while having a conversation creates a barrier. I am also not suggesting it is wrong to use it anytime. I am just suggesting that the usage of it could possibly lead into a one-sided conversation or a non-productive debate where both sides have now set up such big walls that they are not willing to listen one bit. Use discernment is all I am saying.

    Wouldn’t it be awesome if we could have really productive conversations instead of having them deteriorate into train wrecks and then have to shut them down? Or am I chasing unicorns?

    This is what I am try to get to too. Some people want others not to get too emotional about things. Other people want these people not to just write them off. Is either side completely wrong? I don't think so. Is there room for improvement for both sides? I think so. How do we co-exist? I think we could co-exist by being sensitive about what the other side thinks and expects. We don't need to follow it blindly, but wherever possible use some restraint. Either restraint from using strong words or restraint from being too emotional. I think that is how we can have productive conversations.

    @GreatHornedOwl The point of those examples was to show that people differ in their opinions. I don't want to sidestep this thread into discussing about God or vaccines. I was just showing that there are people who fully believe in one set of beliefs while the other fully believes in the opposing set of beliefs.

  • Critical thinking and free exchange of ideas are often taught at the university level but rarely adhered to in the real world due to the frailties of human nature. Even the highly educated are not immune to this phenomenon and oftentimes educated people fall victim to groupthink due to this.

    Social media influences and standardized educational philosophies seemingly have created an environment in which free and independent thinkers are often ostracized and at odds with the extremes of both sides of any debate these days.

  • edited January 2022

    @spreadjoy - in 10 years of engaging in online discussions, mostly professional, I’ve seen probably literally thousands of complaints about tone. I can think of one instance where it might have been a legit complaint. I stand by what I wrote.

    So what if people use strong words? There’s nothing wrong with strong words. They serve a purpose. Try to imagine the Civil Rights Movement without strong words. “Oh, please, sir, would you stop mistreating us?” Strong arguments need strong words. Why should we be afraid of them?

    I think it’s useful to cultivate skillful means of communication but we are ultimately responsible for our own emotional reactions. To blame them on others is not only shirking responsibility but gives others power over us. Covering ourselves in the cloak of being a victim when we are not is manipulative, dishonest, and immature. Thousands of people may be reading what is written, each of them with their own background. There’s no universal standard as for what is socially acceptable so what is the point about arguing whether someone’s “tone” is acceptable or not? It only derails the discussion and takes it off topic. To be honest, I don’t think it matters if someone is a raving lunatic; if what they are saying is correct, it is correct. On the other hand, I’ve more often seen honey sweet words dripping with venom and false claims. Ironically, it’s usually those who complain about tone who engage in the most vicious personal attacks. When this is pointed out, they blame the other person for it, essentially admitting they have no self-control and demonstrating that they cannot prove their point so they need to distract from it. Forget style, stick to the topic, support your point with evidence or sound reasoning, don’t engage in personal attacks, and there shouldn’t be a problem. It’s not that difficult and should be basic ground rules for any discussion.

    When people are confronted with uncomfortable truths or information that contradicts their cherished beliefs it doesn’t matter how nicely it’s worded, they will take offense. I used to bend over backwards to be “nice.” It was a lot of work and people still got ticked off so I finally decided to say what I have to say and not worry about it too much. I’m not mean, I’m just to the point. There’s a big difference.

    Eastern Europeans are very blunt and have told me Americans drive them crazy, you never know what they are really thinking because they hide it in “nice” words. To them, it’s dishonest. Whose standards of style prevail? Mine? Yours? Theirs? The guy down the block?

    As for opinions - there is a famous essay on No, You’re Not Entitled to Your Opinion. Opinions based on misinformation are worse than worthless, they are often downright dangerous. Not all opinions are equal nor should they be treated as such. We’re not required to respect people’s beliefs or opinions. Some people are just downright demonstrably wrong.

    If we focus on the ideas and information we can skip all the subjective interpretation and misinterpretation. This is something even a child can understand at some levels and should not be reserved for only those with a university education. Any functioning adult is capable of it.

    As for the examples given, @GreatHornedOwl was right. One was about belief, the other was about knowledge. There is a difference.

  • Sorry, I’ll be done in a moment.

    One of the complaints I would often get in my professional forums was, “I think what you said was correct but I think you could have been nicer about saying it.” My response was always, “If you think you can do a better job then please do it.” Of course they never did.

  • @Babichev

    I understood what you are trying to say. Thanks for the explanation. I never mentioned about "tone" by the way, until you brought it up. Nevertheless, you believe there is no universal standard for "tone". I believe it is there to some extent. Regarding usage of strong words, I agree to the point you are making that it is better to speak truth strongly, than falsehood with some butter. All I am trying to say is that - if your intention is to discuss, and have a productive conversation then calling someone's idea insane or absurd or nonsense is not the way to go about it. This is according to me. Personally, I think you can still convey the message without using these words. But if using these words is what has worked for you in having a productive conversation with someone, then I am no one to stop you. I may not be entitled to my opinion, but I do have one. Speaking of which, is https://sbs.com.au/news/no-you-re-not-entitled-to-your-opinion the one you are talking about? I looked online for an essay on this topic, and this article by Patrick Stokes is what is popping up.

    Regarding the examples I gave - to you God is a belief. To some others, including me, it is the truth based on knowledge and facts. To you vaccine is knowledge, and to others (not me), there is a conspiracy going on. To these people you and I have a belief in vaccines. Does it change the truth in any way? No, it doesn't. But it does show that not all things are as simple as wearing seat belts. In the case of vaccine, I could completely disregard what they have to say by calling them "conspiracy theorists" and not look into it further or I could give an ear to what they have to say. Look into the data and evidence for myself, and then decide if it is just a conspiracy theory, or is there some truth in what they are trying to say.

  • edited January 2022

    @spreadjoy - where would we find this universal standard regarding “tone”?

    If someone’s idea is absurd, or outrageous, or disgusting, or preposterous, we’re supposed to lie to make the conversation palatable? We’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

    I should warn you that Cuddle Comfort has a policy against perpetuating COVID misinformation so please do not take this discussion down that road no matter what your personal beliefs. I would also ask you to refrain from engaging in discussions about belief or disbelief in god(s) unless the purpose of your comments are to derail this conversation and shut the discussion down. We’ve been through that before, let’s not do it again, okay? Everyone loses. That’s assuming your purpose is to have productive discussion.

    Let’s try to find some common ground. Would you agree that we’re all responsible for our own emotional reactions? And let me ask a question: if you have a strongly held idea and then are confronted with pretty solid evidence that your idea may be wrong, how do you react? Can you think of a time in your life when something like that happened? I can think of literally dozens of times in my life I’ve had to change my thinking and it hasn’t always been pleasant. I’ve written about it professionally a number of times. Here’s one of those essays. It may not make sense to anyone outside of my profession but I literally almost quit when I came to the realization that possibly most of what I thought was true may not have been. I survived.

    https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params={"note_id":639492383602901}&path=/notes/note/&refsrc=deprecated&_rdr

  • edited January 2022

    @Babichev Through your experience living in this world, through being observing and being open to listening you should get an idea. Nobody is perfect. If someone points out something regarding a wrong "tone" used, you should think with an open mind if they are right. If you believe they are not right, then you continue to what you do. If you believe they might have a point, strive to adapt. If it is possible that they are wrong and they are open to listening to you, speak to them about it.

    I would never ever suggest you to lie. I strive to speak the truth always. In my earlier comment, I did mention that I don't think it is wrong to use these words ever. Again, use discernment.

  • edited January 2022

    The type of people who come to this site looking for touch are probably touch starved, struggling and probably not in the best place mentally and/or emotionally.

    In an environment such as this, when presented with a choice, I choose to be kind rather than try to be right. But that's just me.

    It almost feels like walking into a refugee camp and berating people about their belief in God and presenting facts to show how wrong they are.

    This platform ebbs and flows with time. when it becomes harsh to struggling people, I choose to bow out and stop participating.

  • edited January 2022

    @Babichev I understand politics and religion do become very heated. My intention of the examples was not to make it heated, but to put across a point in a broad and general way. In fact, I even mentioned in one my comments:

    The point of those examples was to show that people differ in their opinions. I don't want to sidestep this thread into discussing about God or vaccines. I was just showing that there are people who fully believe in one set of beliefs while the other fully believes in the opposing set of beliefs.

    But even after my reply, when you termed it as belief and knowledge, I felt I will have to dig a bit deeper to defend my use of those examples. However, my intention was never to make it a non-productive heated discussion in the first place.

    I will strive to not use these examples in the future, understanding that the usage of these might derail the thread.

    I agree that we’re all responsible for our own emotional reactions. I have had to change my strongly held ideas too, and yes, it has never been pleasant. In fact, I make it a point to admit to the person who I was advocating my strongly held idea that I was wrong. That becomes very difficult for me, but I do it. Even today, in this thread, when you explained about tone and how different cultures view tone differently (which makes it difficult to accommodate all), I understood that. I was not thinking in that way before.

    P.S. I am more than happy to go back and edit my comments to remove the examples and their subsequent mentions/explanations of it by me. If it helps not derail this thread, then I can gladly do it. Please let me know. This is also because I know you are a moderator. So from your position end experience, if you think deleting them would the right thing to do for the betterment of all, then I will respect that.

    I don’t think that’s necessary and thanks. - Babichev

  • @sillysassy: Something weird happened. Before I went to bed, your quote from OP (above the applause) was accurate. Now it's missing a "not" and says the opposite of what it did previously! Weeeird. Anyway, on to the next bit that changed.

    I think it is WHERE children learn to either find their identity in their ideas (i.e. what clothes are popular? Do you play sports? Are you interested in reading big books or math?) or have an idea/belief separate from their identity.

    Childhood bullying is where children learn to either separate themselves from the things they think or not? Huh. I'm gonna have to think about that one for a while.

    I'm not sure I was ever bullied as a child. I didn't attend public school—my parents believe the Bible as a matter of fact rather than faith (or so it seems to them), so I and my siblings were taught at home to avoid the indoctrination in evil my parents believed (as a matter of fact, not faith) we would definitely receive if we went.

    So how did I learn to separate my ideas from my self?

    I was raised to be a Christian. Not to have Christian beliefs, like "a greater than human being spoke the entire physical universe into existence in six literal days" or "we have all sinned, and the wages of sin is death, and only the blood of a perfect sacrifice can cover this sin," no—I was taught to be a Christian.

    I barely left the house except for services on Sundays and Wednesdays. Bible was a course of study just like Math. My family may have been in the world, but we were not of the world!

    Our actions were a result of our ideas, and so how could our ideas not be our identity?

    Bullying wasn't involved.

    So how did I learn not to identify with my beliefs? Well... I knew I wasn't a Christian. I believed all the stuff, sure! But that was part and parcel of it: believing in the truth of the Bible meant I also believed that there was no place in heaven for those who delight in evil.

    And I loved evil! Stealing stuff, hurting people, killing things—was there anything that made me feel more joy? No, there wasn't!

    My ideas, therefore, were not who I was.

    ...Incidentally, my parents had the idea (based on the solid fact of the Bible's truth) that I was demon-possessed. Which is why I received no help whatsoever for my antisocial behavior; just more beating with the rod to drive the foolishness bound up in my heart far from me (which is probably why I was a sadist in the first place), and a lot of prayer.

    God, incidentally, did nothing whatsoever throughout all this. Didn't tell my devout parents to stop beating me. Didn't make them stop. Didn't say a single word for or against, in fact, unless we count the bits in the Bible about corporal punishment being good for kids!

    Anyway, I eventually got my hands on some actual information about how the world works, instead of Christian-warped misrepresentation, and here we are.

    I find truth remarkably useful to have!

    Hmm. I value having correct ideas about reality very highly. And I know that some of my ideas are probably incorrect (though I don't know which ones).

    I think that might be the key—not bullying in childhood.

  • @spreadjoy

    There are myriads of opinions and beliefs, and some hold on to theirs very very strongly. For example, some believe in an existence of God, for others it is "insane". For some, vaccines are life-saving while for others it is "insane". Personally, whatever my belief systems may be (some of them I strongly believe in), I would avoid using these strong terms in conversations because that tends to completely negate the other person's belief system or opinions instead of willing to have a conversation about it.

    How strongly a person holds onto a belief doesn't impact the veracity of said belief.

    Let's take your example of vaccines. Strongly believing that vaccines don't save lives is ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? Because there is a history of vaccines helping people. Anyone with even a slight knowledge of medicine can point to a variety of instances that disprove the belief vaccines are not life-saving.

    Boom. Direct evidence that destroys that claim. It took me about five seconds to find said information. That a person could maintain a belief that vaccines don't help save lives, when there's readily-available evidence to the contrary, is absurd.

    Another key point I should have made in my original post:

    Not every idea deserves respect. Some beliefs are so outlandish that deeming them worthy of respect devalues critical thinking and study in the pursuit of knowledge.

    "It's important to be open-minded," some might say. And I'd agree. So, using the vaccine example once again, here's what I'd need in order to be convinced that vaccines don't save lives:

    The person who made such a claim must have a PhD in virology, epidemiology, or a related field.

    The same person must have published a thesis on the subject that has been peer-reviewed and found satisfactory, thus dramatically changing the entire field of medicine.

    Nobody on this forum has met that criteria. So, if someone made that previously-mentioned claim here, I feel that it would be perfectly reasonable for me to lambaste that vacuous claim, which in all likelihood was an attempt at fear mongering instead of a cogent thought.

    It wouldn't matter to me how strongly they held that belief. Because belief doesn't mean anything on its own.

  • edited January 2022

    Well said, @HogboblinZwei.

    My parents hold very very strongly to their belief that the universe was created by a supernatural being in six literal days—so strongly, in fact, that they kept me and my siblings out of school to prevent us being "indoctrinated to believe lies."

    They hold on to their belief in the truth of the Bible so strongly that when it says "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him" and "do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die" and "if you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul" and "he who spares the rod hates his son" and "chasten your son while there is hope, and spare not for his crying" and "endure hardship as discipline, for God is treating you as sons, and what son is not disciplined by his father?" and "children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord" and—dang it, what's that law God gave his people where he makes it clear that if a kid is too disobedient he deserves to die? I grew up on this stuff, learning what God considers moral and what he doesn't, but the exact verses slip my memory these days.

    Anyway, you can guess what believing all these statements are true leads to! And if the statements were true—if my parents' beliefs were accurate—then there'd be no harm done. Quite the opposite, in fact. But... as previously noted....

    How strongly a person holds onto a belief doesn't impact the veracity of said belief.

    No, indeed.

    I object strongly to any insistence that people tiptoe around criticism of a belief, or treat it with any kind of politeness at all, just because someone "holds on to it very very strongly"!

  • edited January 2022

    @DaringSprinter thank you so much for catching that weird mistake!! (I still had time to edit it and now its correct) I try to be very diligent about someone's quote. I reiterate it again....

    Criticizing ideas is not the same as criticizing people.

    Thank you @HogboblinZwei for this. I love this comment and I think now it is accurately represented!

    @DaringSprinter you said

    bullying is where children learn to either separate themselves from the things they think or not? Huh. I'm gonna have to think about that one for a while.

    The point that I was trying to make is not that BULLYING is where they learn to separate ideas from identity, but that SCHOOL and PARENTS is where they should learn to separate ideas from identity and sometimes the horror of bullying is where that happens.
    For example.... 7 year old Barry punches 6 year old Mark because he couldn't throw the ball far enough to win the game. Barry tells Mark he is a loser and a worthless human because he can't throw the ball. Mark cries because his nose and heart hurts and the teacher tells them to stop fighting etc. IF the teacher could tell both Mark and Barry that how far they can throw the ball doesn't make them more or less WORTHY AS A HUMAN it just means they have a different skill.
    THIS is what I mean about children learning from a young age how to separate ideas/beliefs/skills from their identity.
    In the same manner, if 10 year old Jane likes to wear combat boots like her Dad and 11 year old Stephanie tells her she should be kicked in the head because she looks stupid in boots and should wear a pink flowered dress instead because that would make her cool and popular, then the teacher should help them learn how to separate ideas from identity.

    Of course I strongly believe that parents should be teaching these things to their children as well..... which brings me to the next thing you said @DaringSprinter ...

    My parents hold very very strongly to their belief that the universe was created by a supernatural being in six literal days—so strongly, in fact, that they kept me and my siblings out of school to prevent us being "indoctrinated to believe lies."

    I believe parents have a huge responsibility to train and take care of their children. I don't think there is anything that I take as seriously as my job as a Mom. Home is where our ideas and beliefs about the world first form. It is where children are taught the fundamentals of life. As a Mom I feel like this idea of teaching my children that who they are as a human is completely separate than what they do. What they believe is something they have to be prepared to defend separately from their value as a human.

    One big difference between how your parents taught you and what I teach my kids is that I have a belief about something but I might be wrong. "Lets talk about it. Lets explore all the different ideas about that and then you can come to your conclusions, but this is what I think about that for right now." I always tell them that there are going to be things that they have to unlearn because I will make mistakes, but I have to teach them what I believe because I feel strongly about it. Even something as basic as food and nutrition. Trying to encourage them to have a healthy diet based on my research is not WHO I am, but what I believe. I have to share that information with them. It doesn't mean I won't allow them to go to school where the lunch lady serves something different and in my opinion not as nutritious, it means I am giving them ONE perspective about the world. Giving them the tools/training/and ability to make up their own mind about things means I am giving up control over them.

    I have to say something about the way your parents raised you.... You said "I'm not sure I was ever bullied as a child. I didn't attend public school" but I think you did have bullying in your life.... in a different way. Your parents believed/practiced something so strongly and as an authority figure in your life, they had complete control over your environment. You didn't have an opportunity to learn how to separate ideas from beliefs because they didn't agree with that in their own lives. Thank goodness you have such an amazing ability to overcome that kind of extremism and find your own voice about things. Not many people have the fortitude to survive that. Kudos to you. You are absolutely inspiring and I hope that you don't feel like that is trite. I mean it. I can relate to some of your struggles. Not as severe but I appreciate you sharing your truth.

    @HogboblinZwei Thank you again!!

    How strongly a person holds onto a belief doesn't impact the veracity of said belief.
    It wouldn't matter to me how strongly they held that belief. Because belief doesn't mean anything on its own.

    I completely agree with this but I have to ask..... (keeping in mind that criticizing an idea is not the same as criticizing a person) It feels like when someone can't respect an idea they sometimes can't be respectful to the person. Why is that?

    Not every idea deserves respect. Some beliefs are so outlandish that deeming them worthy of respect devalues critical thinking and study in the pursuit of knowledge.

    I know that I am always seen as sprouting rainbows and pixie dust but I think this is the critical part of our relating within our discussions. I REALLY appreciate what @Babichev mentions about strong words being necessary and things don't have to be palatable. Having ideas means having the ability and desire to defend them. Being open to being wrong gives us all a chance to find truth and pursue knowledge. Oh @Babichev Yes.....

    One of the most important things to understand is that we are not our ideas. An attack on an idea is not an attack on the person. Simple. If everyone were taught this from an early age our conversations on controversial topics (and even a lot of non-controversial topics) would go a lot more smoothly and might actually get somewhere.
    If we have a position and someone challenges it, we should welcome the opportunity to plainly state why we have that position and defend it.

    I do think that people should be seen as valuable humans even if their ideas are outlandish and ridiculous. I am not the kind of person who is interested in having a conversation with someone to try and change their mind about whether the earth is flat or round if they aren't going to use critical thinking, but it doesn't mean I am going to say that as humans, they are a worthless piece of garbage and undeserving of life. It just means we cannot agree on something really big and we probably won't have intellectually stimulating conversations anymore.

  • One of the motivating forces in my life is curiosity, and the desire to learn. I've come to recognize that I learn more when I'm listening than I do when I'm talking.

    My brain has the opportunity to process new ideas, and to discard parts of them or all of them when I cannot find evidence to support them.

    I've come to recognize that public fora often include people whose approach to life is very different from this. They believe that their original impressions are always the correct ones, and they are on a mission to conform all others to their point of view.

    As others have mentioned, there are many on this forum who welcome a healthy exchange of ideas. When someone's contribution here suggests that they are not in this category, I generally tend not to engage. I figure that if the universe hasn't taught them otherwise, my forum post is unlikely to make much difference.

  • @JoyfulHeart 💗💗💗

    One of the motivating forces in my life is curiosity, and the desire to learn. I've come to recognize that I learn more when I'm listening than I do when I'm talking.
    As others have mentioned, there are many on this forum who welcome a healthy exchange of ideas

    I think I am going to start a new thread to practice a healthy change of ideas!!! @HogboblinZwei you might not know this, but I am spurred on to PRACTICE what your thread topic proposes.... I wonder if it will work out well for all of those involved?

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