Men's Liberation and Male Affection

PeopleLikeUs

There was a time in the '60s early '70s when male affection in public prevailed over the handshake. We also got a glimpse into men's liberation. One flank of the men's lib scene was patriarchal led by writer Robert Bly and his book "Iron John." The other flank embraced male affection and the emerging gay scene that we refer to today as LGBTQIA.

"As interest in feminist thinking and practice has waned, there has been even less focus on the plight of men than in the heyday of the feminist movement. This lack of interest does not change the fact that only a feminist vision that embraces feminist masculinity, that loves boys and men and demands on their behalf every right that we desire for girls and women, can renew men in our society. Feminist thinking teaches us all, males especially, how to love justice and freedom in ways that foster and affirm life. Clearly, we need new strategies, new theories, guides that will show us how to create a world where feminist masculinity thrives." - from "The Will to Change" by bell hooks

What are your thoughts on Men's Liberation?

@SincereGenuine Bravo my friend!

samfiddle

@PeopleLikeUs
This is such a good post! Thank you so much for saying this.
Absolutely love Bell Hooks, just an intelligent, wonderful wondeful being.

samfiddle

This is a sad deficit in "mra"s thinking.
There absolutely are conversations to be had about what men experience under cisheteronormative patriarchy. But thats the thing, any conversation about what men go through will be incomplete unless approached from an explicitly feminist perspective.
What men go through isnt the result of "women oppressing us", its the result of the violent enforcement of dysfunctional gender roles. Women's liberation and "mens liberation" are neccessarily mutually inclusive.

PeopleLikeUs

Yes @samfiddle Thanks! What is "mra"?

Cuddle_RN

I guess I caught the other post before it was removed? Quotes are from that post.

"contemporary American mainstream masculinity is rather unique in its suppression of displays of affection, and of close and intimate friendships between adult men.” I really hope this is true.

"A predictable result of our homophobia is that men become overdependent on women to fulfill their need for intimacy" This idea intrigues me, I haven't heard this before, but on first glance it seems to track pretty closely with my experiences with men.

What does 'men's liberation' mean to you? The same thing feminism means to me - we're all equals, free to be who we are and fill the roles that best suit our own strengths and talents. We don't have to stay stuck in rigid gender roles and harmful stereotypes.

"feminist masculinity" I ❤️ this term, haven't heard it before but I know what it looks like.

"Feminist thinking teaches us all, males especially, how to love justice and freedom in ways that foster and affirm life." Love this! And it's coming, in the next generation. People in their teens and 20s now are doing so much better with this than my generation.

I'm pretty surprised at the negative responses to the other post. Let's discuss a good and valid topic that bears consideration rather than give negative attention to the person who brought it up.

HogboblinZwei

@Cuddle_RN

"I'm pretty surprised at the negative responses to the other post."

That post you're referring to was written by a person whose idea of "men's liberation" derives exclusively from bigots. His ideas were lifted from ignorant, hateful fundamentalists—and the poster himself is a hateful fundamentalist.

The thread disappeared for a good reason.

Cuddle_RN

@HogboblinZwei, do you know the story of the daughter of one of the members of Westboro Baptist Church?

We change through love...even hateful fundamentalists.

This is in no way meant to imply that it's your responsibility to deal with intolerant people. Just maybe let others have an opportunity to interact with them?

This isn't a hill I want to die on or anything, so please be gentle if you want to have a discussion with me on this topic. My starter husband is reaping the consequences of his actions and lashing out at me and I just don't wanna get yelled at. Thanks.

SunsetSnuggles

@Cuddle_RN posted: "My starter husband"
Oh my gosh, you slay me!!! 😂

~ Sunset Snuggles

KYtransplant

@PeopleLikeUs mra = men's rights activist. Very toxic group of individuals. I steer clear from anything about them. Aggressive hateful ideas and people

TheFunCartel

@Cuddle_RN I live an hour away from those tools and she merely profits from the time she spent with them. They recently protested the school district in the town I am in because of the district’s new LGBTQ policy of inclusiveness. They shouted vile things at kids and they go to the funerals of fallen soldiers and shout murderers at the grieving families and the list goes on. You definitely do not want to die on that hill of fundamentalist Nazi youth wannabes. They are very sick. They have been tied to threats, bombings and shootings over the years and I fully support @HogboblinZwei on this. Pacification and understanding never works with evil zealots. Unless, as in this case, there is a buck to be made.

RustyTheNurse

@FunCartel I didn’t read that as @Cuddle_RN dying on a hill of nazism or fundamentalism or any combination thereof. It seemed to me to be suggesting that invalidating a person in total prevents a chance to have any type of conversation with them.

It potentially means that before a word is spoken there is already no point because their worth as a person is predetermined and there are therefore no words or thoughts they could ever have that could move anything forward in any way- no matter how subtle.

While I can appreciate wanting a barrier between yourself and a person espousing things that look and feel horrifying and damaging someone choosing to have a conversation with that person while not condoning their hatred or harm simply does not equal support.

I have uncomfortable conversations for a living currently as a psych RN and formerly as a hospice RN and it is often painful and not easy. Sometimes you really do need to shut someone out because of their persistence in being harmful and inability to have flexibility in the way they interact with you.

Being quick to do so and quick to include others in that category can be very protective and healthful for yourself- and it can also cut off the chance for difficult conversations that can end up with really beautiful and healing outcomes.

It’s a specific and individual choice and I tend to try to err towards being more forgiving and interactive or simply abstaining because that’s what feels right for me. Doesn’t mean it is right for you or anyone else, of course, because we all decide who to be in our various daily circumstances. Please know that these words are offered kindly and respectfully and only intended to reflect my position and current understanding and not to attempt to dictate yours.

I am also keenly aware that I didn’t see the original post and haven’t really followed much in relation to mens rights.

What I am familiar with are the pain and isolation of my patients of any gender and their struggles to feel safe, heard, included, and able to be vulnerable without having negative consequences. If a conversation could help ease that then personally I am interested at least a little.

-all the love
Rusty

Cuddle_RN

@FunCartel, are you saying you don't believe that Megan Phelps-Roper has truly changed? Was she at the protests and funerals you mention?

The hill I don't want to die on has nothing to do with WBC. I'm only suggesting that maybe others should have a chance to participate in a dialog, rather than having someone silenced.

"Pacification and understanding never works with evil zealots." I agree that pacification doesn't work. But I'm not sure that understanding is useless. Megan's story and others like hers tells me otherwise.

TheFunCartel

Megan is now a speaker for hire and has a couple of book deals in the works. I am skeptical at best about her. And yes she did go to those events…her father would pack the entire church and his family into vans and buses to do these things. They are a nomadic caravan of hate. They have gone after African-Americans, gays, military, Jews, and the list goes on. Easier to be understanding when it is not at your front door step. Ask the Ukrainians to understand Putin. Same deal.

TheFunCartel

@RustyTheNurse You are not following much of the thread here. I was responding to a specific person about a specific hate group in my area. It had nothing to do with the original post. A psychiatric patient is one thing, an organized hate group that will kill you is quite another. And like I said, it is easier to espouse “understanding” from afar when it hasn’t affected your children, mom or dad like this group has managed to do with so many.

TheFunCartel

Megan’s father’s Wikipedia page—Fed Phelps. She was his mouth piece for years because the cameras loved her and she softened the “church’s” image. In many ways she is worse than her father because she convinces those who openly accept someone saying they have changed when it really hasn’t. Fred’s Wikipedia page is mild compared to what they actually do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

RustyTheNurse

@FunCartel As a gay dude who has been the direct recipient of hatred and physical threats because of being gay I feel like I can somewhat relate.

As a nurse who has literally gotten multiple concussions from patients and then had to care for them until giving them over to another nurse I think I perhaps have some insight into violence. I spent weeks unable to remember my phone number, where I parked my car or peoples faces and names and not knowing when/if/to what degree I would I return to normal. I still haven’t completely returned to my baseline and that was 8 years ago. Doesn’t really seem like it’s happening at this point.

I have had to deal with violent patients who are quite in control of themselves and deliberately spit gay slurs and at times saliva at me for my entire 12 hour shift and I still have to come and answer them when they call for something. Every. Single. Time.

Some of them specifically cited their religion as their reason and right to do so.

I was often not even offered the option to have them assigned to another nurse.

As someone who worked with a doctor who was killed I think I perhaps understand death threats and murder and have been affected by them.

I understand consequences of actions. Especially those taken repeatedly and willfully and in the face of utterly overwhelming contradictory evidence and with the intent to hurt in order to feel more powerful or “right” or “better” than someone else.

I also had my own violent religious history with family in relation to being gay and so I understand that angle as well in some sense.

I don’t believe any of us are advocating the hatred and speech of such groups or denying the detriment they bring into the world. We are merely in different spots in the most constructive ways to respond to them.

I was also quite clear that I was expressing my own reactions and thoughts and not attempting to assign them to any other person on this planet.

I certainly can appreciate that you wish to be in a place of zero tolerance toward the people that do these things and I can see loving and wonderful intent in that.

However, I’d rather you didn’t presume so much about what has or has not effected me in my life or what particular distance I am operating from.

Thank you for advocacy against hatred, we just have different approaches.

MCcuddles2

There is definitely a delightfully ironic, fascist element to today's liberal "woke mobs" who thrive on silencing and hatred.

Cuddle_RN

@FunCartel, you said "yes she did go to those events…her father would pack the entire church and his family into vans and buses to do these things."

When was the last time Megan attended these events? She left WBC in 2012. I would argue that as a child she didn't have a choice in the matter, and when she became an adult and was shown another way, she chose to leave.

You also said "Megan’s father’s Wikipedia page—Fed Phelps. She was his mouth piece for years because the cameras loved her and she softened the “church’s” image."

Megan is not Fred's daughter. You're thinking of Shirley Phelps-Roper, Megan's mother/Fred's daughter.

You said "In many ways she is worse than her father because she convinces those who openly accept someone saying they have changed when it really hasn’t."

I'm not sure what your basis is for this statement, as you're confusing Shirley and Megan. Did you watch Megan's TED talk? Or are you just making assumptions?

WriterGF

I would caution that if you are going to start talking about "liberal woke mobs," you are getting into politics, which I don't believe is encouraged here. There are other sites for that.

MCcuddles2

Eh, I never stated whether my political affiliation is liberal or conservative.

My affiliation doesn't stop me from recognizing the absurdity of all members of the political spectrum.

CuddleWho

There seems to be some confusion in the comments between "men's liberation" and "MRAs", which are two very different things.

To return to the original post:

The word "feminism" means vastly different things to different people, and in different times and contexts. Some ideas that go under the name "feminism" have changed society dramatically for the better. Other ideas under the name "feminism" are childish, hateful, and/or insane. Almost all public discourse I've seen that purports to be concerned about men's wellbeing from a feminist perspective reflects a complete lack of understanding or empathy for the experience and psychology of the large majority of men.

As far as the goals of the original men's liberation movement... I'll address what I think is the primary goal: the idea that men are too constrained by traditional ideas of masculinity. Of course this is in some ways true, and I definitely believe everyone should be free to live their lives as they see fit, and to not be judged based on whether they conform to some stereotype. However, it doesn't change the fact that most men actually do naturally conform to at least a rough approximation of traditional masculinity. And that's where a lot of discourse around these ideas goes haywire: To whatever extent I conform to traditional masculine ideals, it's not because the patriarchy told me to. I conform to them because it's who I am.

For instance, telling men they could get their needs met if they'd be willing to cuddle other men is inane. Sure, in some ways US men are a little uptight about touching other men. Fine. But men's need for physical affection is (most of the time, for most men) not about being close to any random warm body, it's (most of the time, for most men) about being close to a woman. Ranting about the patriarchy won't change this.

TheFunCartel

@cuddle_rn Megan is the granddaughter yes but was the spokesperson for the church. She was a long term hype person for them. And their actions go back several decades.

She is profiting from their hateful actions and hatred. If she left the church that would be fine, but she has made a very good living off her supposed transformation over Twitter. Sorry not buying it. If she wants to go and apologize to all their victims, then go ahead. But stop making a quick buck off your notoriety.

So the basis of my statement that she is worse than her grandfather is she presented an image to the public of the church before she left that was incongruous with what the church and her family really were. Pure evil is when the person appears good while hiding the evil behind her back. That’s what she did. Her dad was obviously screwed up. It doesn’t take much thought to figure that out. But she presented, as the spokesperson, a loving image of the church and their membership grew under her time as the spokesperson.

TheFunCartel

@RustyTheNurse I presumed nothing about you. You jumped in with your lecturing and I said your stories are very specific to you. They are anecdotal. You never had your daughter attacked by this group so stop making it about you. I sympathize with you being gay and experiencing hatred for it but your experience is not the same as mine so stop assuming you know what affects me. You are not changing my mind on this subject so stop trying to tell me how to feel about this. I only have sympathy and understanding for the victims who do not have book deals and a publicist. Go proselytize to someone else.

Cuddle_RN

@FunCartel this is unkind and @RustyTheNurse has done nothing to deserve this from you. You are the one making outrageous assumptions in this thread. It's giving Starter Husband Projection vibes and I don't like it.

TheFunCartel

I’d rather you didn’t presume so much about what has or has not effected me in my life or what particular distance I am operating from.

L

@Cuddle_RN I didn’t know I had to get your stamp of approval. It was no more unkind than his post that said I assumed a lot about him. I did not so I responded. That is a quote from his post to me. I just don’t want to hear anymore from someone who doesn’t know the whys I feel the way I do so I am telling him to stop trying it in me.

And stop projecting your life mistake onto me because that is very judgmental on your part. I am not a “Starter Husband Projection” because I have seen nothing that would ever interest me in you. So I am nothing like your ex. Just my opinion since you opened that door. Would you like me to pick one of the bad females I have encountered in life and tell you how I get the “Fill in the blank projection vibes” from you?

If you are soooo understanding as you claim and want to practice what you preach then how about asking me why I said what I said instead of calling names.

Cuddle_RN

TheFunCartel

Snow White isn’t the image I thought of:

That is more befitting

DaringSprinter

@Cuddle_RN

Regarding hateful bigots, change through love, and @HogboblinZwei: he definitely knows change is possible. Look at me—I was a hateful bigot when he and I first met (though it wasn't love that changed me...).

If I could go back in time and prevent myself from talking to the people my bigoted words hurt, I would. If only more people had refused to listen!

This site doesn't need preachers of hate.

Let them come back when and if they've changed.

---

Edit: The mods were right in removing the sermon posted by that sincerely and genuinely bigoted user.

While there might not have seemed to be anything objectionable in it, it was unmistakably a segue into that guy's favorite subjects: the oppression of men by women ("which is why we're not comfy cuddling each other!") and the illegitimacy of gayness as an orientation ("it's just because our dads don't cuddle us enough—which is because of women!").

We've seen this before.

TheFunCartel

@DaringSprinter 💯 @HogboblinZwei may not suit everyone’s taste but he is truthful and honest. He walks the walk whether you like it or not which is far more honesty than those that exchange pithy niceties on here to make themselves feel they are a good person but turn into vipers when they don’t like the narrative. I have disagreed with him at times but I absolutely know his heart is true. I can’t say that for a lot of people on here who present a facade of kindness.

DaringSprinter

@FunCartel: Agreed. He was exactly what I needed to clear the garbage off my brain. No façades there!

HogboblinZwei

@Cuddle_RN

"do you know the story of the daughter of one of the members of Westboro Baptist Church?"

No, I do not. I have no interest in hearing her story. Unless—and I'm being serious here—she actually murdered her parent. I doubt that's what happened, given the whole "love" thing that you're going on about. This may sound extreme, but the WBC's actions and rhetoric have always been extreme. So, in my mind, it would fit.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with human history, but love and understanding doesn't really get anything done. And politely asking "Hey, can I be allowed to exist?" is ineffectual.

"maybe let others have an opportunity to interact with them?"

I am not a moderator. I didn't make SincereGenuine's thread disappear. I have not prevented anyone from discussing his inane talking points. All I have done is point out that he's a delusional bigot, which makes sense given his posting history.

Lastly, something somewhat unrelated: Your posts on this topic have reminded me of a particular comic. Let me see if I can find it...

Yay!