Boundaries and Consent

Sideon

We spend a lot of time, whether Pro or Enthusiast or Client, establishing platonic boundaries and mutual consent. These concepts (boundaries and consent) are the framework for this community. As Mods, we warn, timeout, and ban reported people on an hourly basis, the common denominator being the disregard and breaking of boundaries and not honoring another's consent -or very clearly expressed NO's.

The TOS are clear about wearing clothing during cuddles. If you think asking "what will you wear?" or "can I wear boxers, or go commando in shorts?" or "can we be skin to skin?" Is acceptable and appropriate, you 1) need to look up platonic, 2) reread the site rules, 3) and your questions are a mighty red flag waving that you want to move the boundaries and their consent. Sorry, horndogs, but that's a reportable NO. If you've been warned before, then we get into bannable territory. Say hello to Moderator hammers. Welcome to BansRUs.

Consent is agreement, verbal and non verbal, of expected and appropriate behavior. "Can I hold your hand?" affirms boundaries and creates an opportunity for consent, and the response dictates the next actions. Yes? Proceed. No or a headshake or they pull their hand away? You may not hold their hand, they don't need to explain themselves, and you don't get to ask them again. Remember Monopoly? You do not pass go. A grossly simplistic comparison, but you get the gist.

"Read the room" is a presenter's coloquial, meaning, when delivering information or having an exchange, pay attention to what is said, but also how it is said. Body language. Tone. If you're cuddling and the other person gets tense after you've moved your hand or changed positions, ask gently, "are you comfortable," "what position can I move to where you'll be more comfortable," or a basic "checking in here, are you ok"? Talk. Communicate. Listen. Then listen again. And keep listening, for the verbal and non verbal cues.

Know that this community demands clear boundaries and consent. As Mods, I feel personally that we fight this issue every day, every hour, with every ticket. What are some ways in which YOU can help establish, educate, and enforce clear boundaries and mutual consent here? I don't claim to have answers. I'm asking for your thoughts and input.

Thanks.

Be honest. Sounds super basic, but don't do things that you don't want to do for fear of retaliation or repurcussions. If you don't feel comfortable exercising your right to say 'no' to someone, don't put yourself in that situation until you are comfortable saying no to that person.

Talk to them beforehand, ask them questions, have them ask you questions. Have them ask you questions where you will answer in the negative. (Even if it's silly, like 'have you ever been to the moon' or 'do you have an ostrich farm in your back yard', or even consent-based questions like 'would you mind if I wear seven pairs of sunglasses while we cuddle' or 'can we hang upside down like bats while we cuddle')

Get used to saying no to them in more neutral settings so you will find it easier to reinforce the pathway you've already created, during a cuddling session, if you need to.

Most people value the importance of respecting someone else's right to say 'no'. Don't underestimate your own right to do the same.

sillysassy

Oh @Sideon I just absolutely love this. And of course I am so thankful for Mods who have a desire to help keep all the awful stuff at bay.

My thoughts and experiences about consent and boundaries.

AS A FEMALE TYPE ENTHUSIAST I am here to tell you that the previous me throughout my life didn't understand what REAL consent meant until I found this world of cuddles and my first workshop in a cuddle party. The mere IDEA of having a discussion about what is or is not ok was so confounding to my heart and mind that it took me awhile to really grasp the notion and get the hang of it.

I know this area of platonic cuddles is kind of new for a lot of people and I love the part where you said

Talk. Communicate. Listen. Then listen again. And keep listening.....

We each of us have a responsibility to the situation. Some are more practiced than others. We can't control or GUESS at someone's FEELINGS but we can certainly ASK!!!!!

On each side of the coin we need to be aware. For our responses and our questions. Body language needs and BEGS for a follow up question. Someone "sort of" pulls their hand away... Don't just grab it back!!! Don't just ASSUME. ASK!!!!!! Ask how they feel and if something else is desirable. Talking about it is key here in my mind.

My most favorite takeaway besides the thought process behind your "heart and mind being in alignment" is this

"Your NO makes me trust your YES more!"

If I know that you are willing to tell me "No." (which incidentally IS a complete sentence) then I can have a stronger ability to trust your "YES!" On the other side of the coin, if I am always offering half A$$ yes or no responses then how can I expect to ever feel heard or seen or COMFORTABLE enough for the joy of the snuggle???

I have never felt so connected as when a cuddle partner actually listens to me AND is respectful of the boundaries presented.

https://cerebral-sexuality.com/2018/01/03/platonic-consent/

I just love this girl!!!

(I a poster like this for a speech I was giving in my college class. It was so fun talking to teens about platonic touch and consent!!!)

sillysassy

Side thought... What has been so interesting for me is how this consent and boundaries has overflowed into ALL of my connections. Not just cuddles.

Its magical for me. Truly magical.

MxSmith

Thanks for posting this @Sideon I think about consent A LOT. I'm a seasoned pro cuddler and I think I'm very good at communicating around touch preferences/ boundaries; however, I still occasionally have had experiences that I really did not like and where I wonder "what could I have said/done differently" to avoid regretting a shared touch experience with someone. Yes, sometimes it's someone who has planned to try and push boundaries, in which case there's nothing I could have said better, but sometimes it feels like an accident or a miscommunication and it can be quite confusing. There are people who make it their business to get what they want by confusing others, but for the majority, I thought I'd share some common issues that have come up for me:

1. When someone asks for one thing and then they add something else in the mix. Example: Asks to rub my arm, ends up rubbing the back of my arm and also grazing my breast "accidentally". When the intention is one thing but something else ends up happening, it can be very hard to gauge sincerity. I'm not a person who is looking to be offended or have my boundaries crossed. I do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt and help guide hands better if I'm concerned a kind of touch may inadvertently become a different kind of touch. This kind of confusion has more than once really upset me.

• I think in order to avoid this scenario it's best to really know yourself and what issues may come up and to be more specific. Example: I do like having my arms touched but I don't enjoy having the back of my arm touched.

3. When someone makes a mistake because of "muscle memory" or cultural habit. Example: I'm Belgian and I grew up for 18 years kissing people on the cheek to say hello and goodbye. I don't anymore, but it's still very normal to me and when someone greets me and immediately plants one on my cheek without asking. I feel confused and angry because this is a rule and this is also something that I've seen men try to see if I will set a hard boundary from the beginning. (I also live in a heavily Portuguese area where kissing on the cheek is not uncommon). Again, I use common sense and give people the benefit of the doubt, but it can be pretty distressing and frustrating to start a cuddle session feeling like someone's first contact with you was testing you.

• In order to avoid this scenario I generally just ask people when they first arrive if they would like a hug. This immediately establishes how we are greeting each other and that we are asking each other how we are greeting each other.

3. Asking sexual questions. Like Sid said above, we already know the rules around not touching bikini areas, having to cuddle in clothes not underwear/nude , and no kissing. When someone meets with me in person and they start asking me these questions that they know are not allowed... (and for me, we've gone over these things in our screening video session as well) I consider these to be sexual harassment. I'm imagining the person thinking "there's no harm in asking" but yes there is. This is my place of work, and you've just come into my home and asked me if you can take your pants off. A boundary has already been set and it's unacceptable to keep asking in order to see if you can change my mind. The feeling I experience when someone does this is anger. If we were at an office I'd be calling HR. That's a terrible way to start off a cuddle session.

• A good way to avoid this is If a new person on CC is trying to meet with me, I will ask them to read the TOS before our video screening and then I ask them if they have any questions about the TOS rules during our video session. I have never ended a session at the very beginning because someone has asked me a rule breaking question; however, I might just respond next time "would you ask someone at your job if you could do this?" and then follow up with, "you see.. the reason you wouldn't is because it's sexual harassment and for some reason you can see that at your job but not at mine."

pmvines

What is ok today might not be ok tomorrow . It is ok to say ya know what , I'm not really feeling like this today . It is definitely a good idea to check in each time to see if anything has changed, or what it is the person wants / needs at that particular time . I can be quite grumpy and standoffish in mornings for example, so I may wholeheartedly consent to things at different times in the day whereas in morning might just need to isolate for a bit and not be all touchy feely .

MxSmith

Besides touch, there are lots of other boundaries to remember. Here's a list to consider.

1. BODILY AUTONOMY Their right to decide how you interact with their body, how and where you touch them.

2. PERSONAL SPACE AND BELONGINGS their home, the rooms you are entering, their belongings.

3. PRIVACY don't assume you can open someone else's refrigerator or go into every room of someone's house or look at their diary or try to remove an item of clothing.

4. EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES- don't assume it's okay to bring up someone else's personal traumas or ask them about deeply personal issues. Ask before asking. "Can I ask you about the issue you told me about last week that you were upset about?"
5. SPIRITUAL OR INTELLECTUAL BOUNDARIES - Sharing your faith, praying with someone, discussing politics may or may not be welcome. This is something you should ask someone before attempting. "Is it okay if I pray for you?"

6. FINANCIAL BOUNDARIES - trying to manipulate someone with money or refusing to pay them something you agreed is a violation of a financial boundary.

7. TIME BOUNDARIES showing up to someone's house early or late is not being respectful of the other person's time and other commitments.

8. PERSONAL SAFETY BOUNDARIES For example: I require a photo prior to meeting in person, this is a boundary I will not negotiate and it's for my safety.

peacefulcuddler

Just going to throw it out there, since sometimes people forget, but consent goes both ways. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean I'm automatically welcoming of your advances.

@peacefulcuddler this should go without saying. Everyone's boundaries are valid and everyone's consent is important.

Thank you for the reminder that consent is not a gendered issue.

CuddleWho

Obviously consent is crucial. But I have to admit I've never really understood these discussions.

When you all have your boundaries violated... do you then sit back and think, "Oh, if this person understood this list of facts about consent, s/he wouldn't have done that?" Maybe you do, but honestly I never have... instead, I tend to think, "Oh, if this person respected and was conscious of my feelings, she wouldn't have done that."

This is a silly analogy, but to me it's like if a neighborhood was having a high rate of theft, and to try to reduce the crime some of the neighbors started teaching a class about property and ownership.

Mike403

I just want to drop in real quick and mention that the last thread made me feel like some kind of creeper. I understand discussing boundaries at the beginning of the sentence and asking for consent when changing positions. I literally did not understand what it meant to be confirming consenting constantly. Ask every minute? Every 30 seconds? I have autism and am not as verbal as most people in real life, so I feel most comfortable doing things in silence rather than keeping a conversation going.

CuddleWho

@Mike403

I literally did not understand what it meant to be confirming consenting constantly.

I'm not sure which other thread you're referring to. But I can say that some online discussions I've seen (not necessarily here) go way over the top with explicit consent, advocating behavior very few people are going to be comfortable with.

Almost no one actually wants to constantly be talking about consent throughout their interaction with someone. In my experience, with most cuddlers there is zero verbal discussion about consent in either direction, and it works out fine. We know we're here to cuddle. Every once in a while there may be something unclear, and then I ask. That's it.

MxSmith

@CuddleWho I really wish it was that easy.

Here's a familiar scenario:
Person A: "Can I hug you"
Person B: "yes",
Person A: grabs person B into an enormous bone crushing bear hug where they proceed to lift the other person off the ground, squeeze them and spin them around for 5 seconds. Person B hates this hug.

Who was wrong in this situation? Consent was given. But I'm going to say from personal experience, I dislike being grabbed in this way. My assumption would not be that this person did not respect my boundaries, but rather we had a different understanding of what a hug is. This happens ALL THE TIME during cuddle sessions over different positions and types of touch.

Sideon

@CuddleWho - consent is not obvious, given the vast number of reports/flags from both male and female participants who don't understand the concepts, let alone possible strategies in acting/reacting/being proactive. Listening is learned.

You assume the person respected and was conscious of your feelings. Consent and boundaries are about establishing and maintaining those mediums so that safe, platonic cuddling takes place. We're in the business of PREVENTING issues, not second-guessing and re-hashing what DID happen, how one of the parties WAS disrespected, how one party did not CARE about the other's feelings. Consent is verbal and nonverbal. It's a continuous dialogue in multiple forms. Participation is an active, not some passive thing that just happens.

Imagine. You meet a pro or enthusiast. You establish boundaries for the platonic cuddle: you talk, you level set expectations, you two are clear on what's acceptable. You both consent to continue and start to cuddle. In the middle of the cuddle she grabs your junk and laughs, tries to joke it off as an accident, and she gauges your reaction. Do you stop her? Do you say anything? Of COURSE you feel violated, broken boundaries, and hell no you didn't consent to that. It's a ridiculous, hypothetical premise to you, but turn it around and you have 100's of female Pros and enthusiasts who've gone through this already.

@MxSmith and her example above shows the very innocent, yet common way that a verbal understanding and the non-verbal actions can get confused fast.

CuddleWho

@MxSmith Ok, but what does that have to do with a discussion about consent and boundaries? As you say, consent was given. It doesn't sound much like someone violated you, more that he just hugged you in a way that wasn't how you prefer to be hugged. So... tell him that, and then he'll do it differently in the future. Right? How could some in-depth lesson about consent have changed this interaction?

CuddleWho

@Sideon

You both consent to continue and start to cuddle. In the middle of the cuddle she grabs your junk and laughs, tries to joke it off as an accident, and she gauges your reaction.

I regularly have cuddlers attempt to initiate sexual activity with me, verbally or otherwise, and I've had multiple cuddlers do basically exactly what you describe, just grabbing my junk out of the blue. Never the laughing/joking part I guess. You're describing this as though you have to get me to imagine some crazy scenario that's completely outside my experience.

Perhaps being on the receiving end of breaking boundaries and sexual assault is acceptable to you, but I daresay it's NOT ok for the many women who do experience it. Your total lack of empathy and understanding the point of this entire thread is showing, @CuddleWho . [-Sid]

It's a ridiculous, hypothetical premise to you

No, it isn't. Your assumptions about the experiences of straight men and women are hilarious.

As hilarious as your inability to read or comprehend issues of consent and boundaries.

Sideon

@CuddleWho - dude. You literally said: "Obviously consent is crucial. But I have to admit I've never really understood these discussions." You assume a LOT about me and my world experience and perspective, starting with my sexuality. Let's just say your forum comments have never set you much higher than a troll, in my so humble opinion. I hate to break it to you, but this thread isn't about YOU. Get over yourself.

You're done on this thread. I'm not asking. This IS your final warning on your account. Be very very careful with and what you post next in the forums, because myself or any mod will lay down the ban hammer the moment anyone reports you. Sorry not sorry.

MxSmith

@CuddleWho Hmm, what does communicating about how we all like and don't like to be touched have to do with consent and boundaries? EVERYTHING. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THAT! My example is regarding a hug which is what we are all here for? I feel like this is very relevant and I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. I would much MUCH prefer to communicate with someone beforehand rather than have them touch me in a way I don't like and have to stop them/tell that's not okay. It's a preventative measure.

Re: the bone crushing hug. I gave this example because both sides are reasonable. It's culturally normal for people to give these big enthusiastic hugs and a lot of people also really don't like them. The only way we would know beforehand is if we ask. If you think this question is insignificant. I would ask you to think of my mother who has severe scoliosis, arthritis, degenerative disk disease, and osteoporosis. She also goes to church every Sunday where it's someone's job to hug people coming in and I'm legitimately afraid one of these greeters will grab her and throw her around which would really hurt her. This was actually something I hated back in the day before I turned to Satan and came to understand bodily autonomy. Who want's to reject a church greeter's enthusiastic hugs? (I mean I would now, but back then it would have been seen as rude and "up tight").

Sheena123

@MxSmith turned to Satan 🤣🤣 welcome, welcome! We love all on this side! Lol

@MxSmith @Sheena123

Not sure if joking or not re:Satanism, but in case you aren't:

waves in nontheistic satanism

sillysassy

@CuddleWho you said

...some online discussions I've seen (not necessarily here) go way over the top with explicit consent, advocating behavior very few people are going to be comfortable with. Almost no one actually wants to constantly be talking about consent throughout their interaction with someone. In my experience, with most cuddlers there is zero verbal discussion about consent in either direction, and it works out fine.

The emphasis added is mine.
First of all. Your experience is just that. YOURS. How is it possible that you can be so adamant about saying what "MOST" cuddlers do? If MOST cuddlers experienced it YOUR way, there wouldn't be so many frustrations or PRO's writing things like this below in their profile....

This from a Colorado PRO cuddler.... one of many. 😢

hi!! i quit doing booking and cuddles because of how many men sexually assaulted me during cuddle sessions. i'm leaving my profile up because i want everyone who tries to book with me to know this, since those men were far more abundant than not. i will never ever take a job like this again because of the people who couldn't or wouldn't control themselves or respect me. inviting someone into your home just to have them try to pull your clothes off while you're saying "no" is extremely traumatic and ya'll are gonna chase all the worthwhile women away from this site.

i enjoyed this job. i enjoyed getting to talk to people, hear their stories and comfort them throughout all walks of life. i loved the warm, fuzzy connections in this very dark time we are living through.

if you think coaxing a young woman into sexual activities while she is trying to hear you out and open her heart to you is appealing, you're a fucking predator.

If as you say @CuddleWho everything "works out just fine" with ZERO VERBAL DISCUSSION ABOUT CONSENT then your idea of "working out just fine" is very different than mine and all of the people who ENJOY and NEED to talk about boundaries.

@CuddleWho If you....

regularly have cuddlers attempt to initiate sexual activity with me, verbally or otherwise, and had multiple cuddlers do basically exactly what you describe, just grabbing my junk out of the blue.

AND you don't have a problem with it and if you don't report then that is YOUR idea of what is good and right and true, but that is NOT what the site is about.

You have mentioned multiple times in various threads how you won't cuddle with enthusiasts because its difficult and that pro's are the only way to go. Which leads me to believe that all of this action that against the TOS is happening with you from Professionals. If you don't care about them violating you or are just blowing off discussions about consent then it creates opportunities for other people to get hurt.

Like @peacefulcuddler mentioned... its not just a singular gender that is violated... its an ALL gender thing.

Ok, but what does that have to do with a discussion about consent and boundaries? As you say, consent was given. It doesn't sound much like someone violated you, more that he just hugged you in a way that wasn't how you prefer to be hugged. So... tell him that, and then he'll do it differently in the future. Right? How could some in-depth lesson about consent have changed this interaction?

How could it have changed the interaction??? The person who said YES to the hug could have learned that it is reasonable to be SPECIFIC and if they weren't respected they would know it from the VERY FIRST INTERACTION instead of halfway through the connection. They would also feel comfortable REVERSING their consent and changing their mind. They would be able to say "I am valuable and I deserve to have an opinion about what happens to me" @MxSmith used a very basic touch to describe a misunderstanding. It feels as though you are trying to ridicule her for using the example. In almost ALL of the threads about being VIOLATED it starts with small basic "incidentals" like this one and the person who NEEDS TO BE EDUCATED ABOUT BOUNDARIES AND CONSENT doesn't know how or feel comfortable calling things off in the initial stages.

@CuddleWho you mentioned...

This is a silly analogy, but to me it's like if a neighborhood was having a high rate of theft, and to try to reduce the crime some of the neighbors started teaching a class about property and ownership.

As much as you are saying its a silly analogy, you are actually a bit correct. The idea of consent in this manner (FRIES) is NOT something I learned about as a young girl, as a teenager, or as a woman. So its ABSOLUTELY like going to school and learning something for the FIRST time (like a class about property and ownership) and then learning how to express that to someone else and then learning how to take action if someone isn't willing to be respectful or listen to me. That is EXACTLY what @Sideon is trying to accomplish here in this thread. Helping to EDUCATE those who need it. If YOU..... @CuddleWho ..... don't need it, then just pass by the thread. You've got it all figured out? That's GREAT!!!! Start a thread about knowing it all because of HOW IT WORKS BEST FOR YOU. The rest of us who need the discussion about consent and boundaries will continue here as we were before.

The OP asked

What are some ways in which YOU can help establish, educate, and enforce clear boundaries and mutual consent here?

Its fine if you don't need any of that, but some of us do.

And you wonder why consent and boundaries needs to be discussed....... sigh. @CuddleWho I just don't know if you will EVER be able to relate to those of us who struggle, so I don't understand why you continue to jump in and say "This seems like a ridiculous thing to be talking about"

MxSmith

Waves back at @Sheena123 & @DeadGirlWalking in nontheistic satanism. I am in fact not ironically a member of the Satanic Temple. There is no option for that under religious beliefs on my profile, and it's probably not a good advertising move. But there it is. I'm out of the closet now.

sillysassy

@DeadGirlWalking I love what you said about

If you don't feel comfortable exercising your right to say 'no' to someone, don't put yourself in that situation until you are comfortable saying no to that person.

and omgosh @MxSmith @Sheena123 and @DeadGirlWalking 😂🤣😁

MxSmith

@sillysassy daaaayuuummm. That was a fantastic post to read. Thank you for so articulately expressing all of that.

Sideon

Rye823

I enjoyed reading this discussion. I'm an enthusiast cuddler and I put a lot of effort into conveying my respect around boundaries and consent both on my profile and during the sessions. I've learned a decent amount more from this post that I can use or at least be aware of going forward and I'm grateful to the mods and everyone who contributed here.

I agree some things can't always be anticipated (like the bear hug vs normal hug) but to the one who's doing the extravagant hugging, they should know better. There are degrees to these kinds of things just like any other social action upon just meeting someone for the first time. Reading the room and acting accordingly out of respect should be common sense. But as they say, common sense isn't always so common. That, or they live by the philosophy of it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission, which should really be reevaluated for cuddling purposes because to enter one's personal space is a privilege and not something to be taken for granted or to take advantage of.

Communication is so important in any interpersonal environment, especially one as intimate as cuddling, and I think even simple checkups every once in a while makes a big difference even without being excessive. It shows effort and concern for others. I think if everyone looked at cuddling as a way to help others which in turn helps ourselves as opposed to cuddling as a way to help ourselves which in turn helps others, we'd be more considerate of eachother's boundaries and wouldn't be having this conversation. Just my two cents.

@MxSmith

(Spoilered as off-topic)

I know a lot of people get the wrong idea about (nontheistic) Satanism, but it is the belief system that makes the most sense for me and my life.

For anyone that is interested, the seven key tenets are:
I
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

Sheena123

@DeadGirlWalking Those are some good principles to live by!

MxSmith

@DeadGirlWalking & @Sheena123 they really are good principles!

pmvines

Just wanna say consent is key and hail satan

Sheena123

🤣🤣🤣🤣