What is the right thing to do?

Muffintop_1

Hello all, I have not pulled the trigger on a true cuddle session yet because I am a bit worried and need a bit of help pushing forward. Now, I am a big guy, I really don't have to worry about being safe, but I have always tried to do the right thing for me and my loved ones. I have been married for 16 years, I love her, and I am totally against cheating or somehow hurting her. However, three years ago she went through a battle with breast cancer which left her scared and insecure. Now she is on these after-cancer pills that make her quite mean spirited, and she has forgotten what her husband needs. I have NEVER cheated on her, and I really do not want to because she truly did nothing to put herself in this situation. Prior to cancer our sexual lives were amazing but now it's hard to get just a cuddle from her. I have tried to fill the gaps with several types of online porn, I have looked at some sites with working girls, but I know that is not what I want. I do not need or want to have sex I just need a bit of sensual satisfaction. (If that makes sense) I have met this one genuinely nice person for lunch from this site just one time but there was no cuddle, and it felt a bit weird just because I didn't know what to do or really what I wanted. I want to feel emotionally safe, and I want to feel like I am doing the right thing. I just do not know what the right thing is....

Cuddle_RN

What a difficult and lonely place to be.
I'm sorry you're going through this.

The right thing is honesty and professional counseling. If you want to maintain this relationship, going outside it to get your needs met is not going to help.

I'm sure this is a common struggle for survivors and their spouses. Her cancer center may have suggestions.

MCcuddles2

I'm sorry to hear this man. You seem to be in a hard position and your intentions seem pure.

achetocuddle

I was supposed to take that after-cancer pill for 5 years. I did not take it more than a few months because I could not keep working. It does affect your body and mind. It's nice that you remember your wife can't help it. Having been in her shoes and yours, I can say she is in the tougher spot. Best wishes to both of you.

MikeGirard

A therapist would be helpful in sorting out your feelings. If it's available, a support group of other people partnered with cancer survivors might help also.

I don't think you should foreclose on seeking satisfaction outside the relationship altogether. A lot of couples successfully negotiate open relationships to deal with disparities in desire. These couples typically set up ground rules to limit the likelihood of an outright affair ensuing. Your case is much simpler than those are, as you are only seeking openness in cuddling. Have you discussed the issue with your wife at all? Is there any chance you could get her blessing for cuddling outside the relationship?

One long shot I'm going to throw out there is cuddling with a man. It wouldn't be remotely like cheating since you're not gay. And there's no chance of chemistry taking it to places it shouldn't go. I have to say, I have trouble squaring all the 'platonic´ talk around here with the fact that under the label 'Cuddles' almost no one puts 'Everyone.' But maybe I'm just weird.

Muffintop_1

Achetocuddle... I understand she has it harder than me...truly I do...

Mike...yea...I appreciate you comment but I am not sure cuddling with a big smelly hairy man would work for me and chatting with her about this won't go to well. I do not think it's something that she would understand, and I would think that it would just make her feel worse about herself.

Mrcuddles...Thank you!

Cuddlern...that is something we have been talking about. Normally I am not a therapist kind of guy....

JessieLove

I think it would be best to be open and honest with your wife by asking her how she feels about you exploring pure platonic cuddling.

Muffintop_1

Jessie...She barely has 3 more years to take those horrible pills and I am very sure she would not approve of this type of activity.

I know if she came to me about this, I would feel so useless

MikeGirard

"a big smelly hairy man"

Hey, I resemble that remark!

I knew it was a long shot. But, for the record, not all of us are big, smelly nor hairy.

While your situation is surely difficult, it's starting to look less complicated. Certainly seems a bad idea to do cuddles behind your wife's back. You're likely to feel guilty; she'll be extremely injured if she finds out or suspects; and it creates ethical issues for your cuddle partners. From the looks of things, best thing to do is support your wife and wait it out, seeking comfort from friends, family and things you like to do. Treating yourself to more frequent (therapeutic) massage might help with the skin cravings.

JessieLove

@Muffintop_1 I understand.. In my opinion, being platonic is not cheating.

Muffintop_1

@JessieLove Thank you...

GreatHornedOwl

I am in a situation that is similar to yours, although for a very different reason. I have come to the conclusion that giving to another, that which your wife doesn't want, and refuses to accept, isn't cheating.

warm_embrace

I’ve been in a similar situation, only my wife has a long term disabling illness (24 years) and we live apart (she lives in assisted living). Therapy has helped both of us, and we have negotiated a solution that works for us and we’ve been happily married 39 years. I think one key to a successful long term marriage is rolling with the punches. This is not the future we imagined living together, but we are both living our best lives possible.

JessieLove

@Muffintop_1 you're welcome

Minestrone101

I say go for the cuddles. It's technically not cheating, it'll help preserve your sanity and marriage, and you'll get some of your needs met. Many moral and ethical decisions are in the grey zone imo, and sometimes the best choices will create the best social benefit while reducing the harmful effects.

@Muffintop_1 I totally get your situation and feel much compassion for you.
In order for you to support your wife you need to be in a good emotional state. Cuddling would certainly be one thing that would help. I can only suggest an open and frank conversation with your wife and talk it through. Also, a therapy session or two could be of value.
I wish you lots of success and happiness.

MxSmith

@cylee1180 I love everything you post.

@Muffintop_1 I know it's hard sometimes for people to accept that transparency is not always the best option, and it's often confused with dishonesty. I think that sometimes life throws you a really difficult situation and you have to do the least amount of harm while taking care of yourself. Your wife is taking care of herself and you are taking steps to take care of yourself, for whatever reason those two paths are not together at this time. I don't think it's wrong or immoral to seek platonic touch elsewhere and keep that private.

I will say that the word "sensual", although not inherently misplaced, does raise some redflags in the pro community. We've all had cuddles with the dude who won't stop rubbing his lips on our necks insisting "it's not kissing". I usually say "soft touch" and "intimate embrace" to convey what I am ok with and avoiding the word sensual because it's too ambiguous.

Muffintop_1

@MxSmith I appreciate that...This is why I have not acted on this cuddling thing yet...It's incredibly hard to determine what the heck my soul is missing and or the record...I am a total germaphobe...I won't be rubbing my lips anywhere....hahahaha ewwwww...creepy

CuddleDuncan

Any 'cheating' is not in the cuddling, it's in the implied deceit of doing the cuddling without telling the partner.

Some kind of counsellor or therapist that somebody in the OP's position (which which I sympathise greatly) went to see alone may be able to suggest a way of bringing this up with the person in his wife's position.

A thought worth bearing in mind is that marriage is not intended to be tackled alone. (In Scotland at least, weddings are public by law.) So the first thing we can say with absolute certainty is that seeking advice and help - as you are doing - is definitely the right thing to do.

A corollary of this point is that supporting your spouse through difficult times is also something which is not intended to be tackled alone. One of the many problems of our modern society is that marriage is frequently regarded as an isolating event, whose main object is to prevent one or both parties from having any other close or intimate relationships. This is a modern notion and isn't what you actually signed up for.

What you did sign up for was that your spouse would be there for you "through better or worse". Right now, you're going through worse and your wife is not stepping up to the plate. The fact that she, through absolutely no fault of her own, is not able to step up to the plate isn't really the point. The point is that you need support, and that if your spouse is not able to provide that support, then you are entitled to seek it from elsewhere.

It is notable in this type of case that one of the key reasons that the person in the OP's position (the carer) needs support is because they are themselves stepping up to the plate in their support of their spouse, the caree.

In other words it's not so much, "to cuddle or not to cuddle, that is the question" as "I need to cuddle or something, how can I do that without hurting my spouse?"

Standard advice is this kind of situation in the broadest sense is to try and get the other person (the spouse) to think it was their idea in the first place. Crude, simplified, example: hassle her repeatedly for cuddles for three weeks and then allow her to discover cuddling "accidentally". Act surprised when she brings it up.

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Here's a story I have told on the forum before, some time ago. It came, heavily anonymised, from a professional cuddler.

Once upon a time there was an old married couple who were generally happy, but the wife wasn't into touch any more and the husband was suffering. Cuddling was brought up as a solution by the husband, and the wife was not happy. He persisted until he got a grumpy, "well you just do whatever you want". So he did. It made him happier.

The wife noticed. She began to ask him about his sessions. He was seeing the professional, and told his wife all about her. The wife because to express an interest. She demanded to know more and the husband wasn't able to answer all her questions, so a phone call was arranged between wife and professional. Well, they got along like a house on fire.

Anyway, the consequence was that the professional was invited to dinner and since the couple lived deep in the country, that amounts to an invitation to stay the night for purely practical reasons. The professional's plan, based heavily on the demeanour of the wife, was to do herself out of a good client by getting them to cuddle each other.

I never heard what happened but I'm pretty sure they all lived happily ever after.

zerocantaloupe

Let's look at this as a quasi decision tree.

• Decision: drop the idea completely
  ** P(NoCudDivorce) Husband can't take it anymore and divorces. Both parties unhappy.
  ** P(NoCudStay) Husband just sucks it up. Husband unhappy, Wife happy?
• Decision: use cuddlers without asking
  ** P(NeverFindsOut) Husband uses cuddlers and wife never finds out. Husband happy? Wife obliviously happy?
  ** P(FindsOutDivorces) Husband uses cuddlers, wife finds out, divorces husband. Both parties unhappy.
  ** P(FindsOutForgives) Husband uses cuddlers, wife finds out, wife forgives husband. Hard to score.
• Decision: Ask about using cuddlers
  ** P(AskCuddlerYes) Husband asks wife, wife agrees. Both parties happy.
  ** P(AskCuddlerDivorce) Husband asks wife, wife divorces on the spot. Both parties unhappy.
  ** P(AskCuddlerNo) Husband asks wife, wife says no. Leads to
  ** Decision: do it anyway
  *** P(AskCuddlerNoAndDropIt) Wife said no, husband drops the idea. Leads to the "drop the idea completely" decision tree outcomes.
  *** P(AskCuddlerNoUseAnywayNeverFindsOut) Wife said no, husband does it anyway, wife never finds out. Husband happy? Wife obliviously happy?
  *** P(AskCuddlerNoUseAnywayFindsOutDivorces) Wife said no, husband does it anyway, wife finds out, wife divorces. Both parties unhappy.
  *** P(AskCuddlerNoUseAnywayFindsOutForgives) Wife said no, husband does it anyway, wife finds out, wife forgives husband. Hard to score.

Some of these are hard to score because of the following variables:

• Happiness loss from bad conscience due to successful deceit
• Happiness loss from relationship damage due to successful forgive
• Happiness gain/loss from wife knowing husband is miserable

Sorry if this mathematical breakdown sounds cold and sociopathic from the lack of abstract concepts like conscience, values, etc. I guess ultimately it depends on what matters most to you. For example, is it more important to you to preserve the marriage at any cost, or do you want to maximize happiness?

great_pillow08

You NEED to ask her!! Tell her it's completely platonic. Show her the site so she knows the rules everyone HAS TO agree to and just be open and honest with her about it. And PLEASE make sure you're capable of keeping it platonic. I've had SO MANY cuddlers (even professional ones) banned. Whatever you do, DON'T invalidate how she feels about it either way! I'm a cancer survivor too and THE LAST thing you want to do is make her feel like she's "less" than she was before! Good luck!! hugs and prayers

achetocuddle

@zerocantaloupe Outstanding post. A great model? Not sure if that is the right word.

Minestrone101

@MxSmith Thank you! You too! Smart and empathetic.

OnTheJourney

I think you already know the answer but are hoping one of us can state it in a way you can justify a potentially bad choice.

You need couples therapy. The mind set of "therapy isn't for me" is out dated and harmful to you. Therapy means nothing negative and is in no way a measure of how well you can manage your life.

I'm guessing you were raised like I was where men suck things up, walk wounded, bear the weight and never ever show the least bit of vulnerability. That's not a great way for any human to live. You are no less of a man, husband, or person to seek therapy. When you die no one will build a statue of you with a plaque that reads, "The one true man. He resisted therapy at all costs."

You both could use it to help through this tough time for both of you. And during that process you may form the ability to have your needs met open and honestly, either by your wife or with someone else with her agreement and understanding.

Muffintop_1

I appreciate all the advice and the time you took to help me out!

Nice little group we have here!

achetocuddle

This is a caring bunch of people. I don't take it for granted Not so easy to find at times IRL.

Babichev

Hello, @Muffintop_1 , and welcome. I’m glad you’re getting off to a good start here.

None of us can really tell you what is the right thing to do because we know so very little about you and your wife and your circumstances.

I used to feel harshly about any sort of deceit in a marriage but I’ve come to accept that sometimes people are caught in a tough situation and doing something without full disclosure may be the best option under the circumstances. I don’t think it’s a step to be taken lightly but if cuddling outside of the marriage ends up being the way one can stay within the marriage, who am I to say it’s wrong?

I’ll add my voice to the others who have suggested counseling, either yourself or with your wife. It might surprise you. It may help you find a way to convey to your wife that you care about her, that there’s a barrier between the two of you and you want to overcome it with her.

When we’re in long term relationships we can develop habits that are hard to change. It’s scary because we don’t want to lose what we’ve got. However, consider this: perhaps there are things that she would like to discuss that are difficult for her, too. Counseling can help us look honestly at the things we fear and help us find ways to move past the fear so we don’t continue to be held back by it.

Only you know what is the right thing to do for your. We can contribute our thoughts and perspectives but we’re not psychotherapists and we’re not in your shoes.

Good luck. Let us know how things go for you.

MikeGirard

Stellar discussion! Got a lot from it myself.

zerocantaloupe

I think it kinda boils down to a classic battle between why some people like Star Trek The Next Generation and some people like Deep Space Nine: adherents to Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative vs adherents of utilitarianism.

My ex-wife was a raging Kant that tried to take over my personality, so my actual utilitarianism is starting to come back out.

WriterGF

To me this is the central issue ... regardless of what people here say, if you don't discuss with your wife and just start cuddling, are you going to feel guilty? Are you going to feel you are somehow betraying her? Because if you are, you won't enjoy the cuddle.

I usually stick to my Grandma's advice ... "If you can't decide if you want to do something or you don't, you probably don't."

MikeGirard

@zerocantaloupe congrats on your liberation from the 'raging Kant.' I really liked your contribution to the thread.