Is it Toxic or LIMITING Behavior??? 🧐🤨😶

sillysassy

I'm trying to formulate a post for something that has been percolating in my mind for quite a long time.

AND for the sake of a possible powder keg.... 

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Can we all look at some of this stuff and have a thoughtful, kind, meaningful interaction here on the forums about how challenging toxic behavior can be for ALL HUMAN BEINGS instead of pointing fingers to one gender or the other? 

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Some people have been tossing around the word toxic masculinity for quite some time and while I agree that toxic behavior is unhealthy for all humankind, I wonder if there's a better term we could use to manage the emotion behind the definition. 

I saw this video posted in the fabulous @ZacRedBear profile AND THEN I watched it. 
(Edited because I spelt his name wrong! 😂🤣😁)

There were so many takeaways about men who are looking to have BALANCE regarding "masculine" and "feminine" traits in order to live a wholehearted life instead of skewing one way or the other. (I believe the science and psychology behind the idea that we have BOTH traits no matter our gene pool and chromosome tendency)
What I really appreciated from the men that presented the video was how they articulated how the imbalance of masculine/feminine behavior becomes LIMITING for the person and also challenging for everyone around them.  

This vid talks about masculinity being a "narrow lane of existence" which again speaks to finding balance in who we are as humans. 
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRtmqBbE/

She also mentioned that "Patriarchy has created an amputated existence" which affects the both men and women. This "story" that we have been taught has affected how men and women come into relationships with each other. This is seen in romantic/non-romantic relationships and I have had some interesting revelations meeting up with cuddlers and seeing how it all works out in this platonic world.

The Will to Change, by Bell Hooks, is a book that speaks to how differently we are trained to function in relationships and how the trickle down effect has hurt our connections.

This imbalanced behavior happens to both men and women. It just looks different. Women and men are taught different things about emotions and life purpose from a very young age.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/

I can only speak to my experience as a female gender type Gen X aged woman. I grew up in a poor CO neighborhood, without a lot of money but never worried about having food or shelter. I had conservative parents that didn't divorce until about 13 years ago so I had my basic needs met when I was young. 

What I'm wondering is this...... Has anyone ever heard or read something like this? It feels very eye-opening for me and explains a lot about my personal struggle and I'm extremely curious about the perspective from the cuddle community. 

PLEASE NO SHADE 

This is not a post to deny anyone's experience but instead I'm trying to get insight about the way we relate to each other as humans.

(When you edit something like spelling... It deletes the POLL so I'm attaching it again and the previous numbers were #1-30.77% #2-15.38% 3-53.85%

PeopleLikeUs

The book by bell hooks you mentioned is one of the best books on men ever. It has hit our forum more than once. That book could change the world. I am also reading one right now by a new author, Liz Plank called "For the Love of Men: From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity." It's also intense and Liz is a mellinniel.

Women have gone through 4 phases of feminism and men have gone through zero. Liberating men is the next step. It going to take time, patience, and understanding.

I'm with you in this difficult conversation. It needs to be had with love and understanding.

AmazingGrace791

This exact conversation is why I (a 31 y.o. woman) have been trying to teach my mother (54) not to genderize everything she says and does around and to my son (8). He doesn't need to be poisoned with any of the old ideas of "what a real man is", I'm teaching him to be compassionate for others and himself, to get in touch with his thoughts and emotions so that he can learn to communicate and control them effectively, and to be and do whatever he wants as long as it's right, not to worry about "what guys are supposed to do/be". If he wants to go to cosmetology school, learn to sew, arrange furniture, be a stay at home dad, or whatever else people would think of as more feminine lifepaths, I say more power to him! If he grows up well rounded, kind, and relatively content, I've done my job. And the same in reverse goes for any girls I may have down the line. I'd be honored to have a daughter in a STEM field, martial arts, or even the military, if that's what she felt called to do for an honorable reason. People must learn to see themselves and others as complex beings. It would make society so much richer if everyone could be celebrated exactly as they are, and condemned only for actual wrongdoings. Less bigots, less bullies, more love and peace! (Yeah I'm a bit of a hippie lol)

I just try to follow a simple mantra.
"Just be kind".

@AmazingGrace791 Not too long ago my father-in-law was talking about how he raised his kids and I said "If you're about to drop some 1950's bulls**t on me, just stop yourself now." 😆 For background info., he was elaborating on things like telling kids "Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about."

sillysassy

@Calibrate715 I would TOTALLY message you, but we are both muted... We would have to do a 1,2,3 unmute so we could send a message! 🤣🤣🤣)

great_pillow08

🙄

JoyfulHeart

Thank you for your thoughts on this, @sillysassy

I agree that there are harmful narratives that dehumanize people of any gender. Because of this, I have the greatest respect for those who call for an end to toxicity of all kinds.

Over the past number of years, I've been intentionally examining my own attitudes. One result of this is that I've become kinder to others and to myself.

I believe that we all want to be seen as who we are individually. I'm grateful for both men and women who do that for me, thereby doing their part to make the world a better place.

There are so many of you here who are doing that within your circles of influence, and I honor you for that.

@sillysassy - that's a negative, Ghost Rider. Staying muted for now lol

Jubal

There's nothing masculine about the behavior referred to as "toxic masculinity". Yes, I agree with you that it needs a different name, but have no idea on what to suggest.

JohnR1972

@sillysassy - You probably knew I would have a lot to say on this topic 😉 I tried to keep it to under 1,000 words but I’m not sure if I succeeded.

I did some work with a state toxicologist several years ago on a consulting project and I learned so much from her. For instance EVERYTHING from clean drinking water to salt to caffeine is toxic to the human body in high enough doses. Drink 3 gallons of clean water without consuming electrolytes and it could kill you.

I see two forms of “toxic masculinity” (even though I really dislike that term). It can be toxic to others or to the individual himself. There are already numerous threads on here about men misbehaving so I am going to focus on the “self toxicity” aspect.

I LOVED the video you shared. I really enjoyed the LOTR trilogy when it came out years ago and I have watched it again since then. However, the video you shared above is the first time I had seen any of it since going through some MAJOR personal changes & healing over the past 2 years. In other words, it was like watching those scenes for the first time.

I 100% agree with the 2 commentators about how true masculinity embraces tenderness, poetry, brotherly love, respect for others, etc. I also agree, from personal experience, that all those things can be difficult for men to express. The difficulty could be for a variety of reasons including the way they were raised, role models in their life (or a lack thereof), life experiences, childhood trauma, etc. Sometimes people experience things early in life and they develop coping mechanisms (i.e. turning off their emotions) to protect them from further hurt and pain.

I could ramble for an hour on this topic but I will wrap up my thoughts for now with these last 2 ideas…

1) I am living proof that people can change. At 55 years old I began a personal journey that opened me up to new ideas and allowed me to feel and express emotions that had been dormant for decades. While I don’t think of myself as “old”, I know that there is a common perception that people my age don’t change in meaningful ways (especially not in a positive direction).

2) In the immortal words of Stephen Covey (author of 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) we should all “Seek to Understand, THEN to be Understood”. People rarely, if ever, change because they were verbally beat into submission. Change can be facilitated through understanding but understanding doesn’t come about through insults, accusations, or repetition of cliches.

In my experience true, meaningful change happens best one on one, or in small groups where dissimilar people can open up and talk and share experiences in a non-judgmental environment. Where everyone can get past the bumper sticker slogans of the other side and the mis-characterization of each other’s true feelings and beliefs that drive clicks on social media. Political parties and corporations know there is money to be made in fueling division. SCREW THE LABELS associated with race, gender, class, education, etc. talk to each other, preferably in person, as HUMANS TO HUMANS.

I recently attended my first NAACP event a few weeks ago. I had so much more in common from a values standpoint with everyone there than I have in common with many of the people I grew up with. The point is I didn’t see everyone there as “black” anymore than they saw me as “white”. We all saw each other as people. I feel like I am channeling Russell Brand now but what we all have in common is infinitely more important than our differences.

No government agency, no corporation, no advertising campaign is going to fix the division in our country between “toxic masculinity” and “wokeness”, between races, or between the genders. I am firmly convinced many politicians and corporations are benefiting from the division.

It is going to take EVERYONE adopting, encouraging, and living the most noble characteristics discussed in the video above to heal the personal, interpersonal, and societal wounds that seem to have escalated so much in recent years.

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Captain’s log: I just poured my heart out and probably over shared in a lengthy forum post. To quote the 1965 lyrics from The Animals, “I’m just a soul whose intentions are good, Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood.”

achetocuddle

@JohnR1972 That was so good and needed. Definitely not an overshare. True, meaningful change does happen mostly one-on-one or in small groups.

CuddleWho

I watched the first video. In my view Aragorn mourning a comrade who died in battle fits completely within the mold of traditional masculine values, so the presenters' idea that he's somehow breaking that mold or incorporating something feminine doesn't land at all for me.

I have a lot of thoughts but no good answers on this topic. I will say I think the prospect of teaching young men to embrace some aspects of femininity is not likely to work well for most people. In truth this is a very complicated issue and I doubt there actually are any good answers.

JohnR1972

@achetocuddle - Thank you. The timing of @sillysassy post was right after a rather negative experience I had this morning on social media.

I had posted a comment under a news story yesterday. No personal attacks, no hate or anger, just an opinion about the event in a news article.

This morning I was personally attacked by someone in a rather vile way for expressing that opinion. I clicked their username to see their profile and while I have no idea who this person is, I saw from their other posts that they and I probably agree on 90% or more of current issues.

However, they didn’t even take the time to understand me or what I actually stated yesterday. They simply practiced “mind reading” because the only people who could possibly hold my opinion are “un-American” *#^!~#$ idiots with ulterior motives.

I had always avoided social media until about 3 months ago and my 3 month experiment with it is rapidly drawing to a close. It is even more toxic than I thought it was and I had pretty low expectations going in. It is a great platform for like minded people to find each other and reinforce the “rightness” of their beliefs and to gang up on and attack people with other beliefs. No facilitation of understanding by either side regardless of which “dividing line” you want to examine.

I’m still searching for the platform / venue / creative idea to get INDIVIDUALS together in a safe environment where nobody feels peer pressure to defend their tribe - where they can open up, let down their guard, and speak from the heart TO (as opposed to AT) each other. I have witnessed miracles when this happens. I want to facilitate it happening more often to more people.

MrPaul

Quoting from that Cinema Therapy video: “If we can all agree to be that complete person, the world will be a better place.”

frankparker9

As the son of liberal parents in New England—a controlling Canadian mother and a more passive father, who was the cook in the family—I wasn't taught that men and women inherently had different roles. Starting in kindergarten, I made friends with girls, because as far as my five-year-old brain could tell, the boys just wanted to wrestle, and I wanted to color. So I made my own gender-based generalization. I doubt it's served me. I can't think of a gender-based generalization that ever has.

No gender has a monopoly on being "brave" or "struggling with accountability." If there was a time when we tried to organize society so that men were the ambitious ones, and women were the emotionally vulnerable ones, that's gone now. We live in a capitalist, hyper-individualist society where everyone is ambitious and no one is vulnerable. Few are empowered leaders, and few are empowered nurturers. In some places, on average, men and women were brought up with different baggage, and conservative/religious upbringings have saddled a lot of people with a ton of gender-linked baggage, and I think healing from this baggage is mainly where the terms masculinity and femininity apply.

ohnonotagain

I saw the term, "toxic masculinity," for years and thought it was just some r/FDS type of narrative saying all men are bad. Then about a year back or so, I actually looked into the topic and realized how wrong I was. It was so ingrained in my youth (growing up late 80s-90s) that I just took it for how it is. Rarely did I have a positive male influence in my life. Shit, since I was 9 I was the "man of the house," so to say.

It's truly tough in society, especially from that age. Men shouldn't show weakness, should always be strong, and should be perceived as dumb compared to their wives. Came to the point where I would actually just play stupid in some relationships just because that's how I thought to act. Contrarily, TV shows for young ladies are also skewing the narrative of reality. A couple relationships failed because I was never the prince charming, hopeless romantic (those are the intelligent dudes in media), or sometimes expressed my frustrations through emotions instead of through violence. Dating a latina is especially hard because some anticipate the machismo that is just a show of emotional unintelligence.

I am all for team work in relationships, but that's just the conclusions I have come to through years of studying my own mind. Unfortunately these things don't equate well when others are consumed by media showing the man as the constantly solid rock. Bro, I have bad days too, don't ask me to show my emotions if you are just going to be turned off when shit really hits the fan and I need you to be a rock sometimes too.

I may have gotten off point. I will finish this diatribe by saying, toxic masculinity is definitely real, more men should express more emotions instead of just pounding a 30pack of coors light on the weekend, and there should be more men's support groups online with good moderation to get out the young dudes with high standards who do not work on themselves and just expect Megan Fox to fall into their lap. But both genders have to help make this work out. If I am supporting you through your struggles and I am your cheerleader every single day of the year, can you just be there for me when times get tough?

PeopleLikeUs

In the Cinema Therapy post, we have two men talking about non-toxic vs. toxic masculinity while using the stereotypically racist backdrop of Lord of the Rings. What more toxic masculine film could they have chosen than one that places white, Victorian good guys against bad, inherently flawed Black Orcs. The racism in this film goes hand in hand with the view on gender – the very few female characters are stereotypical and their role is the traditional one, staying at home while men are doing deeds far away in foreign countries. Males act and females react, and the only exception is Éowyn, a potential rebel, but in the end, she learns her place and conforms to a more suitable role as a wife and potential mother, and order is restored.

In the brief "hope-peddler" vid, Heather flat-out projects and overlays her own take on "why evolved self-aware women are not attracted to masculine men?" She proclaims herself as superior to people who take a binary approach to romance. She goes on to body-shame muscular men. She also makes the generalization "why so many of us are turned off, like actively turned off, by really muscly men." So she admits that some women are turned on by muscular men? Are traditional binary people part of her gender spectrum? I don't think so.

Comedian Melanie Hamlett then simply suggests men's groups as the most cost-effective way for men to connect emotionally with each other taking the pressure off their partners. Yes, relationships need social integration. One person cannot be everything to another. Other people help add balance and perspective to primary relationships. I found her table-turning play on words, “emotional gold digger” to be pretty funny, but it is also a dig.

Since you mentioned the late bell hooks but did not post a video, I am posting a sample of her intersectional thinking on the issue of toxic masculinity. Bell, in all of her books never views patriarchy through just one lens.

Hamtaro1

I believe few men actually meet the definition of toxic masculinity.

From the internet's most viewed source Wiki. Toxic masculinity has two key components misogyny and homophobia. Both of which are strong words and would need repeated behavior to show a person identifying as a cis male would need to display to be deem a mans masculinity as toxic.

Just like narcissism toxic masculinity has been applied to many different men who have been hurt by women. Honestly talking about myself here toxic masculinity could be applied to me because of my previous frustrations with difficulty talking to women with a romantic interest. I held resentment towards women in my heart because of my many failed attempts of attracting cis women not the ideas of contempt towards queer or cis women.

Which to me homophobia is my pastor as a child yelling into a microphone that having an affinity for queer people lands you a special place in hell. Even though sin is sin so there is not supposed to be a hierarchy. Cis men just want to attract cis women and displaying homophobic tendencies feels internally as a death wish for attracting cis women.

Misogyny to me would be my father commanding me to sit down and not help my mother with cleaning because that is a women's job in the house. The other portion is how much anger he displayed towards my mother. I never saw him hit her, but I only believe he didn't because that was a fifth wife and most likely beat the other four because he became a new person as a Pentecostal Christian with my mother moving to Florida. For context my father was born in the year of 1941.

It's unfair to define a majority of modern men as toxic masculine man when they don't exhibit these strong behaviors driven by contempt towards queers or women.

A lot of modern men just want to be sexually active and enjoy monogamous relationships with loving caring women who respect their partner. I personally have opened my sexuality towards men and queer identifying because it has been hard to date cis gender women for whatever personal blocks I encounter or potentially the societal circumstances men are facing in the dating world today. This was a lot and it's fine to as me question to provide more context. Rant over.

Sideon

This is Sid the human enthusiast's post, not as a mod.

@sillysassy - Fair warning - it's a long post. @Everyone Potential trigger warning for family dynamics and fighting.

I'm not too concerned with other men and the self-image they create for themselves, but I do care about how humans treat other human beings. Stroll with me a moment, saunter even, and look through some of my life's experience of the IDEA of men, masculinity, and how one "should" act.

My folks were religious. I knew from an early age and pre-baptism that I was destined for their idea of hell because I argued with religious leaders: I wanted to wait until I was older and had sinned in order to be baptized to wash it away. Of course my father and grandfather were horrified, but mom saw my logic and agreed with me. We all compromised. Translation: they bribed me with a basketball. I sold my soul and was baptized for a basketball, but then stopped playing in 6th grade because I wasn't the tallest player anymore.

My folks were avid hunters. My father was a sharpshooter. I grew up with guns: rifles, shotguns, pistols, handguns. By the time I was a teen, I was proficient with all of my dad's guns. Their idea of male bonding including rabbit, deer, pheasant, duck, and elk hunting. It set me apart to my father and brother that I could go with them and have better opportunities to bag a prize, but have more fun collecting white sage or wildflowers, such as prairie fire (Castilleja) - I never killed an animal. No thanks. What infuriated them, and perhaps may have changed the narrative of my life, was that I was a dead-eye aim, particularly with the Glock 9mm and target practice. Where my father and brother hit 1-2 skeets, I hit three. Where they hit 7 out of 10 targets, I hit 9 or 10 out of 10. Without that ace up my sleeve, I'm not sure respect would have been part of their vernacular into my latter teens when I came out. My father, in his knowing without having the vocabulary or world view to handle it, somehow thought that maybe if I learned how to fight I'd be "okay". Bless his little noggin. During one particular deer hunting trip which was part Lord of the Flies, and part Modern Family, where he thought instigating a fight between me and my much larger cousin would "toughen me up", which turned into a ring of drunk guys surrounding us next to the bonfire cheering us on. Unlucky for my cousin, who I didn't like anyway, I punched him in the jaw, in the guts, kneed him in the nuts, and he went down like a sack of rocks: 4 seconds. My brilliant father was furious and sent my big brother into the ring to fight me. I had never hit my brother before and wasn't planning on it, so I upped the ante and said low and slow, "I'm not going to fight you. If you do touch me, I will hurt you, and then Dad, you're next." My brother looked relieved and turned around, my white-faced dad finally shut up, and the group of guys suddenly had something else to do. Oh father, gay does not mean helpless. I can take care of myself.

I dated women. I had girlfriends. And then I also had boyfriends. And then con-current boyfriends. Don't get all judgey - I didn't say I slept with any of them, m'kay? Coming out, I was bombarded by language and ideas and perspectives in the gay community: for some couples, two guys together meant a double-sized wardrobe, for others it meant specific roles based on heterosexual norms (top, bottom, versatile), and for others it meant whatever those two chose to make of their relationship. I met butch drag queens and dykes that were part of patrols in the gay-borhoods. Femme jocks. Twink tops. Bears, cubs. Communities that rippled and overlapped in concentric circles, near and far. These were the days when the AIDS quilt was displayed in DC. There was this slow but persistent reverberation of respect and consent which to me ironically coincided with leather bars and country western line dancing. I was paired with a lesbian in a two-step class and it wasn't until four beers later when she finally let me lead, she followed, and we danced across the floor like bumbling tumbleweeds. Graceful, but sloshed and hilarious tumbleweeds. Move over, Gene Kelly!

What we see in the media, gay pride parades, drag queens at library reading hours, or the terrifying idea that the gay agenda is just as domestic as heterosexual's... is just that. Ideas. Perspectives. Facets of a diamond. It is an odd thing for me to write and admit, but I don't really see people as they look. I experience people as they are. I'll circle this back to my beginning statement: humans can believe whatever they choose about themselves, but my experience of them only matters based on how they treat me and others. I know who I am. I know how I treat others. No hesitation.

Sid Chronicle, #223.

sillysassy

...Oh my goodness.... Wow.

There is a lot of processing going on here... in my heart and in my noggin'.... all of your comments are appreciated and thoughts are percolating.

I am thankful for all of the shares so far. I know this is a BIG conversation.

Thank you for your thoughtfulness in posting.

Goodness.... a LOT of perspectives are showing up here. 😊

Sideon

Some would call this Exhibit A of Non-Toxic Masculinity.

I call it being human.

SuperManCuddles

@Sideon Wow! Thank you very much for sharing life experiences! You overcame much adversity, are you true self and it’s inspiring!

TxTom

"Toxic masculinity" is a newly created term implying that there's something wrong with men being men.

Today's society also doesn't seem to like boys behaving like boys, so in some instances, they're diagnosed with a "condition" that calls for drugs to mellow them out.

(Now that I've said that, please note that I'm not calling anyone names, or pointing fingers, or blaming anyone in particular.)

JoyfulHeart

@TxTom

The existence of toxic masculinity doesn't automatically deny the existence of other kinds of masculinity. While some users of the term may think that, I believe that there are many who use the term who can think of examples of healthy masculinity.

If I were to say that I don't like rotten apples, I wouldn't be suggesting that all apples are rotten.

Just my inexpert opinion based on some conversations I've had with people who've used the phrase.

sunnysideup

@Sideon Thanks for sharing that amazing story.

@sillysassy I believe that categorizing everything with respect to race or gender is divisive, it’s better to say humans should strive for x. At the same time, if one group is being disproportionately being discriminated against, it’s useful to point this out.

Being a millennial, I’ve seen a greater push for equality in workplace especially women compared to what more recent history was like, but dating still seems to be very much traditional for heterosexual couples.

I believe that society has done a decent job at pointing out what toxic masculinity can look like and it’s effects on society: I also believe it did not do a great job with showing what modern masculinity looks like, or on being clear about throwing gendered lifestyles out the window altogether.

I believe this part of the reason how people with toxic views like Andrew Tate became popular with young males, he filled that void of a role model/pathway.

sillysassy

@PeopleLikeUs thank you so much for the video. She is absolutely phenomenal.
I am processing the rest of your comment before I respond because I want to think on it a bit beyond my initial reaction.
Thank you for sharing your truth.

I really appreciated the way she spoke to the BALANCE of humanity.

We were the feminists who could not be trusted because we cared about the fate of men. We were the feminists who did not believe in female superiority any more than we believed in male superiority.

I think she is presenting the kind of thinking that helps solve the problem and strugle of gender blame.

@AmazingGrace791 I love this.

If he grows up well rounded, kind, and relatively content, I've done my job.

I can relate to the idea of trying to teach our children a new perspective. Giving them space to be exactly who they want to be is challenging when you also want them to experience familial relationships. As my parenting is entering into a new chapter (my daughter is 23 and my son is graduating HS and leaving the house) I feel like NOW is the time for them to finally be free of any parental constraint and do whatever they are going to do with the training and love they got all through their lives. This cuddle world actually opened up a LOT of new conversations for all of us in the last 6 years.

@Mman if we could all live that mantra.... it would be a different world I believe. 😊

@JoyfulHeart

I agree that there are harmful narratives that dehumanize people of any gender. Because of this, I have the greatest respect for those who call for an end to toxicity of all kinds.

I think that was the biggest point I was trying to make in this post. Ending EVERYONE'S toxic behavior.
Anything can become toxic when it is done in its extreme. As a mom, I've seen people get bat shit crazy about trying to "protect" their family. This is called "masculine" if a man is doing something like trying to beat the sh!t out of someone for flirting with his daughter, and "feminine" when a young child can't go ride their bike because of a mom's overprotective nature about perceived dangers.

We all have the ability to become toxic with our behaviors no matter if they are "masculine or feminine" traits.

What I loved about the word LIMITING BEHAVIOR is that it became something that can be attatched to all humans. The idea that when we get crazy fueled about something we wind up diminishing our options for other beautiful things to happen. Hence.... LIMITING.

Pointing fingers toward one aspect of human kind or another isn't actually solving the problem... Just like in a discussion or disagreement.... the blame game doesn't serve a good purpose and doesn't move us forward as a society.

@Sideon goodness. Thank you so much for the warning and also thank you very much for sharing. "Your heart and my heart are very old friends." 💕

@sunnysideup I completely agree. 

I believe that categorizing everything with respect to race or gender is divisive, it’s better to say humans should strive for x. At the same time, if one group is being disproportionately being discriminated against, it’s useful to point this out.

I started this thread specifically to talk about BEHAVIORS in our human society. I know this is a BIG BIG BIG subject and that is why I didn't even try to attack the idea of race because that takes on a whole huge amount of discussion. 

I have mentioned that I grew up with an influence because of my specific paradigm. Just because my brother grew up thinking it was "less masculine" to play music doesn't mean every male type had that same story. There were plenty of my friends whose families celebrated musicality and dancing, dressing and smelling nice were a VERY favored aspect of "masculinity" in their homes but in mine it meant your must be a homosexual. Because of this clarity, I realize that their struggles will look different than mine because of what they were told growing up. Different story, but similar struggle.

@ohnonotagain Thank you so much for sharing part of your story. 

more men should express more emotions instead of just pounding a 30pack of coors light on the weekend, and there should be more men's support groups online with good moderation to get out the young dudes with high standards who do not work on themselves and just expect Megan Fox to fall into their lap. But both genders have to help make this work out.

Anyone who uses a 30 pack to deal with their emotions might need to check that coping decision, but it seems like we all cope with stress in different ways instead of dealing with the real issues at hand. Like you spoke to getting some therapy and doing some self work instead of just trying to deny feelings. Its not just whether someone has the ability to shed a few tears but actually learn how to process the emotions. 

I am so grateful for everyone's willingness to interact with kindness.

Thank you so much for this aspect!!! I love love LOVE this discussion.... I really appreciate being able to see through a different lens based on the input of this community. Even if its just a single emoji. 😊

PeopleLikeUs

@sillysassy

Thank you for sharing your truth

No. That's what it is.

PeopleLikeUs

Some people have been tossing around the word toxic masculinity for quite some time and while I agree that toxic behavior is unhealthy for all humankind, I wonder if there's a better term we could use to manage the emotion behind the definition.

"Mindful masculinity" is a better term. The conversation we need to have about men is not distinct or separate from the one we've had and will continue to have about women. In fact, the gendered expectations holding women back are born out of the same system that creates limitations for men. Those oppressions aren't only connected; they're born out of the same idealogy. This requires a fundamental shift in the framing of our conversations about gender, where we don't assume whether someone is the victim or perpetrator based on their gender. Although issues affecting gender have been famed as a "gender war," with losers and winners, a more mindful conversation about gender only has winners. Women have been approaching their gender consciously for some time, and men can do it that way, too, by practicing mindful masculinity.

WKplatonic

It is a toxic behavior. It is a trap pattern that people are falling into that they don't even realize. Social media has been and is destroying today's society. It is easy to attack someone from behind a device than face to face. There is an old saying, "Get out of the devil's workshop and make a life for yourself. We all expect too much from this life, but how much are we willing we give back? This life doesn't owe any of us a damn thing. We must get out there and earn it. Leave social media to those with speech impairments and those who cannot leave their homes daily.

sillysassy

@WKplatonic I agree that we all fall into toxic behaviors that are for the most part something we don't realize until we see or feel some of the pain from the destructive patterns. I don't think I would agree that "social media is destroying today's society" as opposed to the way people USE "social media."

I know this platform isn't the same as Insta or Facebook or anything else, but I think CC is a perfect example of how we can be connected somewhat to a million people with a similar mindset (i.e. platonic cuddles are a beautiful part of life) but possibly never have a chance to meet with them in person. Able bodied people can use any of those sites and still be mindful in their intentions with others.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the "Devil's workshop" comment, but I don't think there is a SINGLE thing on earth that has both possibilities of being used for good or bad.

@PeopleLikeUs I agree that this issue is something that comes from a specific idealogy and the _reframing _ of our ideas and new conversations about it can lead us to a more mindful approach in ALL of our behaviors.

This was very potent.

In fact, the gendered expectations holding women back are born out of the same system that creates limitations for men. Those oppressions aren't only connected; they're born out of the same idealogy.

I was reading more this week and this morning perusing through the forums and something hit me...

There was a HUGE blowup because a cuddler had a very specific idea about how women dress in public that formed his ideas. Is it this kind of thing that moves us to a place where we feel we have a special "claim to THE TRUTH" as if its possible to even have ONLY ONE KIND OF WORLD IDEAOLOGY???? He wound up hurting some people and hurting his chances to connect with other cuddlers a bit.

This kind of gentleman grew up with lots of people telling him a specific "truth" about something... we could even relate it to being told all of our lives that the snow from the sky was made of feathers and then at some point in our life we find out the snow is actually frozen water.

I'm sure no one was trying to hurt society by telling this man that how women dress=this but in fact it was only ONE VERSION of truth. It was THEIR truth. And in his mind... IT WAS/IS THE ONLY TRUTH.

I heard a new phrase in the last few weeks and it makes a LOT of sense. Ontological arrogance bell hooks speaks to so many beautiful concepts in her book that all of the issues we face as humans are interconnected and loving each other EVEN with our "story" that we've been given is the only way to find healing as a society. At least that's my take on some of what she said.

Ontological arrogance is when we operate as though we have a special claim to the truth. That our truth is the only truth. When we come from a place of ontological arrogance, we occur to other people as “being right waiting to happen.”

On the other hand...

Ontological humility accepts that there are (at least) three realities in any conversation: yours, mine and what's really happening.

It seems like to move through life feeling like WE happen to have a corner on the truth is a lonely and tragic path. For years I would have imagined these kinds of people were just "confident" but if you don't leave room for someone else to have a different understanding of reality.... wow. I'm having a lot of thoughts tumbling and twirling in my head this morning....