Platonic fatigue

beaubliss

Yes, you read the subject title right......and it's especially a problem on this site!

Can we all agree to find another term, please? One that is clear, succinct, and more accurate too? I'll make a couple of suggestions....after I rant at least a little about the misuse of "Platonic".

Full disclosure, I do have a philosophy degree, and I did concentrate on the ancient Greeks, so I have thought about this for years.....and I may have a little bias too

Plato described different aspects of love, and philosophers through the ages have argued varying viewpoints, including that Eros is the highest expression of love. Plato/Socrates were widely known for combining their love of wisdom with their love of the young male form. Without going into too much more detail, suffice it to say that there is nothing Platonic about Plato, and the term as it has been used in modern times really didn't come into fashion until nearly 2,000 years after Plato's death.

Because of the largely misunderstood application of the term "platonic", I would suggest either "non-sexual" or "non-erotic" be used instead. I'm not at all suggesting that the desire for erotic or sexual activity would change here; but, simply put, there would be a more accurate and clearly understood meaning of the rule that is so often discussed.

Shake

You had me worried with the title! I was not expecting a history lesson to come out of this thread. 😆

SunsetSnuggles

If we said "non-sexual cuddling", would that imply that "traditional" cuddling is sexual by nature? 🤔

~ Sunset Snuggles

Mike403

@SunsetSnuggles - People seem to assume that cuddling leads to sex and they don't know what the word "platonic" means.

SunsetSnuggles

@Mike403 People cuddle pets, kids, and relatives, so I've never understood that assumption, though indeed, I'm aware of it.

I do honestly find it hard to believe that the average American adult doesn't know the definition of "platonic", but I've met one in person already, so there's that. 😬

~ Sunset Snuggles

biancalovecraft

I do maternal cuddling. Hope you feel better about that 😂

Sideon

Platonic works, regardless and despite the historical trappings and Greek male idolization.

Language is fluid. Language and meaning change. "Queer", for example, has changed radically (pun intended) over the last hundred years. No different with platonic.

[Dammit, I posted before I was done.]

I'd argue (obviously) that platonic is more appropriate as non-erotic and non-sexual descriptions draw attention to erotic and sexual. Platonic isn't as loaded a word, nor as suggestive or exhortive.

SunsetSnuggles

@Sideon posted: "non-erotic and non-sexual descriptions draw attention to erotic and sexual."

Exactly.

~ Sunset Snuggles

Mare_Bear

Not to mention that because of laws banning hidden sex work on sites like this, bots are looking for words pertaining to s€x and flagging those sites.

HeavenlyNurture

I think the problem is much like the Law of Attraction SEO wouldn’t see non and would miscategorize things.

CharlieBear

I’d probably start here first:

https://public.oed.com/contribute-to-the-oed/submission-form/

cuddlefaery

There's a number of other terms you could theoretically use if you felt they were applicable....but chances are they wouldn't be as well known as "platonic". The more niche jargon you throw in, the longer it will take society at large to catch on and the more likely things are to get lost in translation.

Sure, we could argue cuddling in and of itself is already non-sexual and non-romantic....but that is not how the majority of human cultures socialize people to believe. Because we socialize everyone to associate cuddling in adulthood with sex and/or romance, it is therefore necessary to differentiate. But as @Sideon mentioned, using a negative qualifier automatically makes people think of the thing they're not supposed to. "Don't think about sex"....they're automatically going to think sex. If instead we use a fairly well known term like "platonic" that by common definition already includes the disqualifiers, then it's a lot simpler.

So, some of the less ideal alternatives I mentioned?

• "friendly" - while on surface level this seems like a good alternative to platonic as the two words ought to be exchangeable in this context, "friendly cuddles" for some reason gives people a creepy vibe. I've asked a fair number of people about it while trying to come up with a business name and almost all said that it gave off "guy in a van with candy" vibes or similar 😂
• "noetic" - for those unfamiliar , your noetiscape is your internal mental landscape, or how your thoughts and feelings come together to work in your unique way. The term has started becoming a little more visible in the form of "noetisexual" - a replacement for "sapiosexual" that seeks to be more inclusive and more accurate. So for some cuddlers, the people they cuddle with noetically would be those they are attracted to because of vibing with how their brains work.
• "kindred" - I'm partial to this one because I love alliteration and Anne Shirley 😅 "kindred cuddles" may bring to mind family more than friendship in some parts, though

MrAdmirer

The english definition of the word platonic is just fine.

BashfulLoner

@beaubliss i think you’ll have to accept the commonly accepted meaning or the word platonic. Even though the dictionary definition do not dictate what is commonly believed about the meaning of words, in some cases it does. I’m also don’t think there is another commonly accepted word that would work, in the English language at least.

Plus everyone here loves to say it like it’s something that sets them apart from regular folk. We cling to words in society that makes us feel good or different from others for some reason, but that’s a whole different subject.

But I’d suggest we use the word kite, kite cuddling would work. We can just make up the meaning. We can talkie pride in it.

Rachel_P

@beaubliss I agree that that term gets regurgitated and tossed around here like confetti at a New Year’s fête. While it does aptly convey the fact that this is a non-sexual service and community, it also negates the intimate nature of cuddling in and of itself.

Cuddling is an intimate service. While I’ve seen that assertion shot down here before—in an attempt to push the platonic narrative—platonic is an adjective used to describe an action or relationship that is inherently intimate and requires closeness, yet is non-sexual in nature. Laying in a bed next to someone is intimate. Hugging and holding is intimate. Light touching of the hands, back and shoulders is intimate. Yet none of these are sexual unless they are a prelude to something else.

I feel like the word intimacy is often misconstrued as being against the TOS of the site…which is wild, because it indicates a familiar interaction that is private in nature. That’s cuddling…unless you’re doing a public or group cuddle. I think the overuse of platonic is an attempt to make it clear that this site is in for the procurement of illicit services.

I did find the bit about Plato interesting. I had always only heard the capitalized version of ‘Platonic’ as being associated with Plato the man, but it makes sense that the general version of the word is also associated with him as well. I think the word works for the purposes of the site, but I get miffed with how often other words that are anything else get poo-pooed. Especially when said word is also an apt descriptor of cuddling. ✌️

VanillaFlower

Perhaps amicable cuddling as it implies that it’s strictly on a friendship level?

MrAdmirer

The English definition of platonic is “intimate and affectionate but not sexual” What more is needed? It’s quite clear to me and covers the context of everything from a smile, to hand holding to hugging to cuddling. Another special term is moot. Why muddy the waters even further? We don’t need a philosophical deep dive or special labels for every single little thing out there. If anything, that’s what causes my fatigue….lol.

beaubliss

@MrAdmirer
YOU may not need a philosophical deep dive......but that's my kink!
And I do admit (as I said in the beginning) that I am a bit biased, and every time I hear "Platonic", I think of where the word derived, and I can't help but become fatigued at its inaccuracy.

beaubliss

Some of the alternatives mentioned are actually really good.....vanilla cuddling is fantastic, and I really really like kindred cuddling, primarily for its alliteration, thanks @cuddlefaery !

SunsetSnuggles

🤣 Vanilla cuddling...you know, the kind that doesn't use fuzzy handcuffs.

~ Sunset Snuggles

beaubliss

And @Rachel_P, well, I have no doubt we would get along famously. Your thoughtfulness in response is exactly what I discuss as essential in cuddling as an intimate service. And a big YES as regards cuddling being intimate! "Platonic", though inaccurate as it references Plato's actions and descriptions, does convey to many only a "friendly" activity, possibly devoid of intimacy. The real striving includes appropriate intimacy, and that will vary from client to client, as well as to what is inspired to flow from the pro. Some will want to be cuddled in silence and will feel that human touch itself is enough to take him/her to the absolute edge of appropriate intimacy.....while others will want the deep dive into intimate stories mutually told, along with sweet enlivening touch.

There is no fixed definition of "intimate", as there is apparently with "platonic" and I for one LOVE that vagueness!

cde123

This one pops up every once and a while, and somehow the thread glosses over that Platonic refers primarily to the ideals of Plato and isn't necessarily about love at all. Plato was more concerned with us humans and our striving for excellence in all matters. Platonic relationships (yes, including the romantic same sex relationships he's somewhat known for) certainly had elements of helping others achieve the same.

If you are trying to help others be their best selves in a Platonic way, then it follows that taking advantage of them is not the way to do it. That's where cuddling comes in. Platonic cuddling is not taking advantage of others. It doesn't need to be about love at all, certainly not about erotic love.

Of course, if one isn't interested in helping others at all, and it's just about selfish sensuality, then calling it Platonic would probably feel wrong and we would want another word.

MrAdmirer

The reason the ideals of Plato are “glossed over” is because, I hate to break it to the intellectuals out there, most people just don’t concern themselves about the Greek origins of the word or the ideals of Plato. The accepted English definition of the word platonic is just fine for most people.

Even calling it vanilla cuddling sort of cheapens cuddling if we want to read too much into it. I don’t consider cuddling to be ordinary at all.

cde123

@MrAdmirer Hey, even that English definition of platonic says "(of love or friendship)" - neither of which are part and parcel with cuddling 🤷

MrAdmirer

@cde123 that's why it is in parenthesis. It does not have to apply. And if you can't go into a cuddle session with a friendly disposition, I suspect it won't be very enjoyable for either