Unintended consequences: the dis-integration of society?

JohnR1972

One of my favorite books is the “The Logic of Failure” by Dietrich Dorner (1997).
https://www.amazon.com/Logic-Failure-Recognizing-Avoiding-Situations/dp/0201479486

In it, Dorner describes how mankind often makes big mistakes by doing things that seem like immediate and obvious improvements to the status quo, but in the long run, those “improvements” turn out to be detrimental to the very people they were intended to help.

As I think about what I perceive as the fracturing or “dis-integration” of society (in the U.S. in particular) I can’t help but wonder how much of it has been accelerated by technology? I know there have always been conflicts between different groups throughout human history so clashing ideologies and even violence are nothing new.

But it SEEMS in the past we generally had more in common (i.e. shared experiences) that united us and helped hold us together (but I will admit that might be a flawed perception on my part).

Technology can be a wonderful thing. I “cut the cable” over a decade ago and have not had live television since around 2011. I enjoy having the option to instantly choose from tens of millions of videos, movies and shows on YouTube, Netflix, Amazon Prime and Apple TV whenever I want to watch something. But with so many options, what are the odds of a co-worker having watched the same thing last night so we could discuss it over lunch today? We have fewer “shared experiences” because of the incredible amount of options today.

Likewise, even within a family, there was a time when it was more common for the family to sit together watching the same thing on TV (back when people only had 1 or 2 TVs in the home). Today, 4 people can sit in a living room with headphones and everyone is watching whatever they want in a handheld device. I am not saying that is “wrong”, just that it sacrifices shared experiences. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion about some situation / dilemma you just watched with people who didn’t watch it with you.

I could site other examples of no one speaking to each other in a gym because everyone is wearing headphones. You may not be particularly interested in having a conversation with a stranger during a workout but without doing so, that stranger is unlikely to ever become a friend.

Niche content, whether a YouTube channel or TikTok, tends to become more “fringe” as it can be very profitable to create content for a small group of die hard followers rather than having to appeal to a broader (and therefore more moderate) audience. Streaming services have algorithms that suggest content based on what you have previously watched / engaged with so anyone who watches “niche” or fringe content is likely to be subjected to more and more of that type of content.

Are we allowing the convenience, comfort and entertainment of modern technology to undermine the shared experiences that help hold society together? Is big tech profiting from “selling division” and contributing to tribalism? If you answer yes to either, what do you suggest to turn things around?

CuddleHugs01234

Be intentional. Spend time and do activities with those you love. Take out the headphones and get your face outta your phone when out. Do things in your community too.

stormydaycuddle

But it SEEMS in the past we generally had more in common (i.e. shared experiences) that united us and helped hold us together (but I will admit that might be a flawed perception on my part).

Because marginalized groups weren’t allowed to speak up. But I’m not sure this was looking at things from that angle. So Im not trying to start anything or say it was your intent etc.

lonelytauros

I don’t think technology is Solely to blame this might be an unpopular opinion, but a lot of disintegration or degradation of society has a lot to do with morals and values. We live in a society all about self-worth, and that were either kings or queens, rather than living in a world full of community and family support I’m not saying it’s not out there It is but things have definitely changed.

Minestrone101

@lonelytauros Funny quote to address the morals part. lol

TheFunCartel

a lot of disintegration or degradation of society has a lot to do with morals and values.

Morals and values are highly subjective and normalized by the prevailing belief systems in power. Your morals are not someone else’s. What is lacking is toleration of differing morals and values as well as compromise.

Mela_B

I do see some of what you're saying, but I also think this largely depends on the person. And perspective. I tend to make friends wherever I go, chatting with strangers and coffee shop employees. I frame myself and the world as approachable and friendly, and because I see it that way, it usually is. Sure, some people ignore me, or worse, aren't pleasant, and I try to be kind to them anyway because maybe they need that to remember what kindness is like. And if that doesn't work, they're not my people anyway. 🤷‍♂️ ❤️

lonelytauros

@BoomerSpooner is killing rape or stealing subjective?

TxTom

@JohnR1972 Good observation. @lonelytauros Agreed. The fracturing of society (a moral issue) is separate from the technology (a tool). Although technology can be used to either exasperate the situation, or be used to improve it. We see plenty of both examples. The Cicero cartoon above does humorously illustrate pattern details that contribute to the endless cycle of the rise and fall of civilizations. Morals and values are absolutely not subjective. Truth, like math, is absolute. As individuals, we all don't get to decide subjectively what we want 1+1 to equal.

TxTom

And this has the potential to be an outstanding discussion thread, if it can be kept civil.

JohnR1972

@CuddleHugs01234 - great suggestions!

@stormydaycuddle - I don’t disagree with you about marginalized groups but the shared experiences I am talking about, in my opinion, were things that transcended groups, at least to some degree.

Regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. 10s of millions of people watched ET and Raiders of the Lost Ark. Seeing those movies was a little thing but it was something a tremendous number of people had in common, just like watching the final episode of MASH, Cheers, or Friends. It evoked similar emotions in all of us and gave us something to talk about together.

I would draw an analogy of running into a fellow American when I was accidentally stuck in Belgium for several days (I never planned to go to Belgium but my flight to London was diverted there due to a volcanic eruption that closed airports across Europe). When I saw someone who looked American, was wearing a NY Mets hat and spoke with a distinctly NY accent, I felt a connection to them because I knew we shared things in common as Americans, regardless of how many things we didn’t share as individuals.

@lonelytauros - I 100% agree, Technology is not the sole cause or even the main cause, but I personally think it is an accelerant (like soaking something in gasoline before something else lights it on fire).

TheFunCartel

@BoomerSpooner is killing rape or stealing subjective?

Here we go with moving a goal post. You said morals, which is an extremely wide vista of beliefs. Now you are more exact. No those aren’t subjective but blaming it on some set of codified morals is not the issue with some of that—economic, family structure, hunger, homelessness, mental illness and several other factors are involved with that. Morals is an easy and simplistic thing to blame it on because politicians couch their arguments as such so the real problems of society go unattended. But throwing out the word morals without a definition or parameters says nothing and represents little.

JohnR1972

@Minestrone101 - a wise man, about 3,000 years ago, said “There is nothing new under the sun”. I think your cartoons is a great example of that truth 😊

@BoomerSpooner - Do you think the reduction in shared experiences might be contributing to that lack of tolerance? I am NOT advocating for bringing back the draft but I have read several authors who claim the forced integration of people from different backgrounds into the military actually had a positive impact in regard to understanding / acceptance of different backgrounds / life experiences.

I was not in the military so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of that statement but I would encourage any veterans to weigh in on that topic.

@Mela_B

I frame myself and the world as approachable and friendly, and because I see it that way, it usually is.

I love that ❤️. It reminds me of my favorite Buddha quote…
“What you think, you become.
What you feel, you attract.
What you imagine, you create.”

JohnR1972

@TxTom - Thank you. I am hoping it stays civil and so far so good 👍

TheFunCartel

@JohnR1972 The draft was only used for part of the Vietnam War. After that you just needed to register. Most of the people today have no connection to being drafted so I do not believe that is even relevant. Besides, that begs the question if that were true, were things intolerant before the draft? And I would argue that the bulk of those drafted were poor and those who could go to college did because of the college exemption. I was a military brat and my dad served two tours in Nam.

I think the switch to opinion journalism in the 1990s and the economics of journalism splintered the country more than anything. Divisiveness is good for ratings and attracting eyeballs. Where we once attempted to be objective has now turned into name-calling by experts explaining what the news means.

PeopleLikeUs

In a healthy society, people turn in one set of problems for a better set of problems. This is progressive, developmental growth. We're never problem-free.

Societal development often comes with a new set of issues, but the goal is generally to improve overall well-being, equality, and quality of life.

The notion of going back in time to a supposedly "better" place is often criticized because it tends to oversimplify historical realities. The past may have had its positive aspects, but it also had significant challenges, injustices, and limitations, which might not align with contemporary values or understanding. Social progress involves learning from the past, acknowledging its flaws, and working toward a more inclusive and equitable future.

Diversity in a society is often seen as a strength, contributing to innovation, cultural richness, and a broader range of perspectives. Embracing diversity and adapting to change are crucial aspects of societal resilience and growth.

TxTom

I was in the military for several years.

This was my observation: The amount of self-integration/segregation was a like a sliding scale. The closer you were to being in a combat environment, the more integration and brotherhood between different racial groups. The further you were from being in a combat environment, the more segregation and conflict between said groups.

TheFunCartel

Embracing diversity and adapting to change are crucial aspects of societal resilience and growth.

I agree but in the current climate diversity is a mine field of divisiveness because no one is looking at the shared experiences.

TheFunCartel

But technology is not to blame. Tech should take some blame for exploiting some of the societal flaws. However, if I were to take an educated guess at the current landscape I see the following issues:

1. Pandemic fallout—mental illness has skyrocketed and kids were incredibly impacted by it.

2. Housing—rents and housing prices are beyond the reach of many Americans and the younger generation is becoming rapidly disenfranchised and disillusioned as a result. This creates a schism between age groups.

3. Trust in the government over the past seven years has eroded significantly and the result is name-calling, jingoism and false promises. Another schism.

4. Education—less is taught and our young people must pay the equivalent of a mortgage to obtain a college education while said college announces plans to build a lazy river at the fitness arena or provide for 10,000 meal options which they also make them pay for separately from tuition. As a result, enrollment is dropping at colleges across the country. More disillusionment and fewer shared experiences with the older generation.

I could go on, but our issues are not a one size fits all cause and effect. Society today is an amalgamation of multiple ailments.

stormydaycuddle

@BoomerSpooner and others: I think its hard to share experiences so close to the subject. The different groups haven't fully become their own and therefore while seeking identity they are trying to get as far from the past as possible (rightfully so). There were too many shared experiences that were pressed upon groups. Things based on race, women. LBGTQ+ and others. I was actually (and I'm serious) reading an article last night about a woman who was talking about how all her standards growing up were through the lens of being white and she wasn't but she grew up trying to see herself as white. That's not even a full generation of disconnect between the trauma of being forced to assimilate. I think it needs more time. You need to fully be free to be you before you can feel comfy being in the same space in a way.

TxTom

I agree with @BoomerSpooner 's 4 points above. I would only add that, as for education, not everyone is cut out for college, and not everyone needs a college degree. Trade schools are a great alternative. Society needs both white collar and blue collar professionals.

TheFunCartel

@stormydaycuddle I hear what you are saying but even disparate groups of people have shared experiences. Everyone needs healthcare, jobs, education, and food. And it is no secret that marginalized groups have lacked a voice in the past. But that is not what is being asked. The question was why does our shared experiences not bring us together? For that I have no solution. I fear if everyone was dyed purple and given the same gender everyone would still be worlds apart.

KingsportCuddle

Nice post, @JohnR1972. Mankind trying to solve the ills of society and, despite their best intentions, making things worse, sounds a lot like what happened in the Middle East when the U.S. decided it would be in the best interest of the people for us to rid them of Sadaam Hussein. (Obviously it could be argued that there were other factors like securing oil reserves and such that factored into the U.S. decision, but we'll leave that off the table since it's beside the point.)

As a tech geek by profession, I'd say technology is a mixed bag. Sometimes it helps people be smarter. Sometimes it just helps people do stupid things faster. 😅 I do think that technology and social media has been somewhat detrimental to how the average person socializes with others. And as you mentioned the myriad of choices lessens the shared experiences with those around us. As to what to do about it, I'm not sure anything can be done. Or let me rephrase, there are things you and I can individually choose to do in our own lives but I don't think society as a whole will ever go back to those simpler days of innocence. Technology is now moving as an exponential pace (with the emergence of ChatGPT, and we begin to inch closer and closer to artificial general intelligence). For better or worse, the future will likely unfold in dramatic ways before our very eyes in the next 5-20 years.

stormydaycuddle

@BoomerSpooner and I think that's part of the answer. There’s a new filter that must be overcome. The need for autonomy first.

TheFunCartel

Shared experience is nothing without listening to each other.

stormydaycuddle

Listening is different from community bonds. You can have one and get progress without the other and getting peace.

RedFox16

Interesting topic @JohnR1972 As I understand in your OP you're not trying to say that technology is wholely to blame for a dis-integration in society, but a factor. And that's due to the fact that it causes us (in the ways you listed) to not be sharing in common experiences like we used to.

Well, I do understand what you mean....I actually see it firsthand with my own kiddos and their friends. However, all throughout civilization....adults have claimed that exact thing. And usually saying it's due to technology.... or music or video games or clothes, etc.

Typically, the idea that "society was better back when" is due to something called nostalgia. And nostalgia (a sentimental longing for one’s past) is actually something that gets studied in psychology...a decent amount. A lot of studies I've read about this tend to say the same things.

The POV that "when we were young" was a better time (more moral, more innocent, people were more connected, people were kinder, etc) is due to that nostalgia effect. As well, it's due to what our brains were focused on at those times in life....when we were young. Young people tend to be more focused on their own small world that only encompasses themselves, their friends, and the things they were all doing collectively. And that's truly how brains work in young people (about teens till mid to late 20s) They literally don't realize what's going on in the larger world around them. The way adults do anyways 🤷🏻‍♀️

We may have known about issues or wars or problems when we were those ages....but our brains could literally not understand it in the ways we can as adults. Those issues didn't mean a whole to us and didn't seem to affect us much either.

Soooooooo, all that boring background info is to say....

The world was never "better" when we were younger. It's different, yes....and there's always problems with new technology and new things and new anything, like @KingsportCuddle mentioned. But also those problems are very much subjective. Just like @BoomerSpooner pointed out.
My own kids (15, 17, & 19) are already starting to be nostalgic for how things were "when they were young" 🤣 It's SO weird!

And sometimes, I even find myself telling them how things were better when I was their age, because no cell phones....and then they just ask me how I survived without them (which tbh, nowadays I probably couldn't LOL)

TheFunCartel

We may have known about issues or wars or problems when we were those ages....but our brains could literally not understand it in the ways we can as adults. Those issues didn't mean a whole to us and didn't seem to affect us much either.

I disagree when it’s your parent over in some foreign country it affects you immensely. My mom, brother and I used to make tapes to send to my dad and the taping sessions always ended in tears.

cde123

This is an interesting one. I'm sure we all have our pet theories on what the leading cause of disintegration in modern society might be - how we treat each other, for example, or perhaps the influence of consumerism and instant gratification, or the increasing sophistication of those alternate moral systems which have been created outside of traditional religion. Is technology a primary cause of division? Perhaps in that it enables us to be surrounded by influences we don't even recognize as such - but then again, newspapers and radios and magazines were that for previous generations. Yet technology can also be an equalizer - you can hear from a real expert on YouTube now rather than someone misinformed, if you know where to look and how to judge.

stormydaycuddle

@CDE123

TheFunCartel

you can hear from a real expert on YouTube now rather than someone misinformed, if you know where to look and how to judge.

Yeah but critical thinking has been all but obliterated in education. So people latch on to echo chambers.