Looking on the (B)right Side of Life

DaringSprinter

I saw a new research study from the UK and, for the first time in nearly a year, I found myself thinking of you. What, I wondered, would the folks on CuddleComfort make of this?

The premise is simple if you're familiar with the Understanding Society survey (a nationally representative annual longitudinal survey of some 40,000 households). This survey followed about 36,000 people from 2009 to 2021, and gathered a lot of data about them.

So take that data and check to see whether there's any correlation between cognitive skills like verbal fluency, fluid reasoning, numerical reasoning, and memory... and optimism.

What's the relationship between intelligence and optimism, do you think?

Disregard your instinctive conclusion and really think about it. If you take 36,312 people and test their memory, ability to think of words for things, solve simple logic problems, and so on, you can figure out which people have good cognitive skills and which have poor cognitive skills.

Now check to see how optimistic they all were about their financial situation next year.

Which ones were the most optimistic (and how wrong were they)? Which ones were the most pessimistic (and how wrong were they)? Take all the people who got their predictions right, and check: do they all have good cognitive skills? How many of them are optimists?

Fascinating.

https://neurosciencenews.com/optimism-cognition-decision-making-25307/

lonelytauros

It is an interesting article that people with excessive optimism, make poor financial decisions. It is somewhat interesting. It’s always gonna be easier for a person to bury their head in the sand rather than face reality, I mean optimism can be used as a manipulation tool to get people to buy things that they don’t need but if they can make people believe that it will make them happy or that it’s good for them. It will sell. It’s the same thing for ideologies Such as church or any sort of support group if it makes a person feel good a person is more likely to invest into it, whether it be financially or mentally

DaringSprinter

The best part of this study is how clearly it shows that being stupid leads to both poor financial decisions and optimism.

It's not that optimism makes a person stupid. It's that being stupid makes a person optimistic.

I think that's great.

JohnR1972

@DaringSprinter - it is good to see you back!

About 12 years ago I was in Australia and one evening in my hotel I watched a documentary where the film maker interviewed several serial killers in prison about their crimes. One killer in particular, who killed several college coeds with a knife in their sorority house, was asked “they had you outnumbered 5 to 1 and you didn’t have a gun, just a knife, why didn’t they fight back?

With a level of bone chilling calm only a true sociopath could exude, he said “Because I gave them hope, I kept telling them if they cooperated and tied each other up that nobody would get hurt.”

Their irrational optimism, that a guy with a knife who broke into their house was not going to hurt them, set them all up for unimaginable horror their final few hours of life.

There is a serious lesson there for all of us. It is easy incredibly easy to convince someone of what they WANT to believe.

DaringSprinter

Thank you, @JohnR1972. I don't intend to be here longer than this thread lasts (so possibly not very long at all!) but it's cool that you remember me.

Fear is known to reduce higher level cognitive ability. Thinking when you're scared is tough! Someone whose brain hadn't been terrified into stupidity would probably realize "he broke in with a knife and wants us helpless, but I'm sure he wouldn't lie" is idiocy.

Stupidity causes optimism, all right—and that can be very dangerous.

pmvines

Holy hot dog water is this a @DaringSprinter siting in their natural habitat ? As rare as an albino crocodile I am beside myself with disbelief and joy! It’s a Christmas miracle and my stocking is full ! I don’t even have anything to add to this thread not even a poops comment but wanted to say howdy and welcome back !

CuddleDuncan

I was always highly optimistic that @DaringSprinter would reappear.

DaringSprinter

@pmvines! @CuddleDuncan! You're still here! I wasn't sure what the odds were. It's good to see you again. I'm glad you remember me (and, I assume, my partner... who is currently—I'll add this to the thread for you, pmvines—pooping).

pmvines

@DaringSprinter yup haven’t been run off yet . Glad to hear hog bob has some healthy bowels

TheFunCartel

@DaringSprinter Welcome back! I am the poster formally known as FunCartel. Does Hogboblin still write? Easily the best writer I have seen pass through here.

carrieanne

Great post, a good one for me to see today especially. But my take personally is using never-ending-realist-optimism because I’m always going to be looking for hope. Im always keeping my sites on the days ahead when today feels so difficult. My mom said when I was young, this too shall pass. A constant reminder to not dwell.
At my age - truly age 74 as of today! 😱
…my future isn’t the foggy abstract stack of decades ahead. So intelligent optimism is how I live. And evaluating all sides. Being equally strong right/left brain also helps.

TheFunCartel

@carrieanne You do not look or act like a 74 yo. Whatever you are doing you are doing right! Kudos. And I agree, realism mixed with optimism is a wise choice. Everyone needs to hope while having their eyes wide open to reality.

sillysassy

@DaringSprinter HELLLLLLLOOOOOO!!! It’s so fun to see your name pop up in a NEW thread.

Every time I see something you’ve posted in the past I have warm fuzzy memories of you and Hogboblin. I 100% agree with @BoomerSpooner about his writing ability and your fantastic way of articulating thoughts!

I just necroposted the HolidayHaters thread and thought fondly of you and those awful “bells ringing” Please say hi (when he is done in the LOO!!!)

This article was incredibly interesting. I can see how the idea of “excessive optimism” can be terribly detrimental. To not be realistic enough (and certainly with finances) could be somewhat catastrophic.

It seems like mixing a balance of optimism and fierce reality must be necessary.

AND…. Wow. The chilling stories of people who prey on the HOPE of a truth teller. **********YIKES**********!!

DaringSprinter

FunCartel! I remember you by that name, @BoomerSpooner. Yes, Hogboblin still writes... but not as much as he did when he and I were living off savings. Having to go to work drains a person. It's a crying shame, because you're right: he's a magnificent writer.

He'd like to say a few words, actually. Hang on.

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And here I am! Hey, FunCartel. Daring covered my creative output pretty well. I have innumerable grand ideas, but I find it difficult to get them out, mostly due to my needing to work. It's exceedingly disconcerting for me. I suppose things would be going more smoothly if I possessed any self-discipline whatsoever. Oh well.

Anyways, I'll allow myself to be subsumed by Daring once again. It's always an unpleasant process—my thoughts become fragmented, and the agony of melting, like wax, back into Daring's sternum is exquisite.

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And there you have it! It's bedtime for us now, so have a nice day, everybody.

TheFunCartel

I do have something to add though. My ex-sister-in-law who I chat with occasionally is losing her son. He was just moved into hospice two days ago and is not likely to make it to Christmas. He has been fighting a brain tumor since he was 24 and he is now 35. She doesn’t want to talk about it with anyone. I understand that as losing a child is unfathomable and I do not know how I would cope if that occurred with my son or daughter. She had optimism and hope and now she is crushed. I have no idea what to say as saying anything is a reminder of the inevitable. I left her with if I can help in anyway—meals, rides, paperwork—let me know. My heart is breaking for her.

RedFox16

Super interesting study! It's funny that someone thought to test those correlations (intelligence level and how it affects optimism level....and how those together, then affect decision making).

It makes sense tho. The measure of intelligence (or IQ) is basically testing how well a person can understand things....and how deeply. So, a person on the lower end might hear a joke and only understand the surface level of that joke. Whereas, someone on the higher end of IQ can hear the same joke and understand several funny aspects of the same joke. Like when you watch a Disney movie as a kid....and then again as an adult (their joke are made to be funny in multiple levels)

Soooooo, when you look at things from the study's POV, it's probably that those who are on the lower end of the optimism/intelligence spectrum, is due to them not being able to fully understand the complexity of a given situation.

Someone like this may have an "optimistic" view something like "rich people should be forced to share their money with everyone, and then no one would be poor". But what they don't understand is the multilayered reasoning behind human nature and why people are driven to get rich in the first place. Or even why there are so many degrees of socioeconomic classes.

This is a random example....it is not a personal opinion or reflective of how I personally see things in society

Some things they might not be able to comprehend:
-If a person knows that they will be forced to give away their money....they won't have the drive to work so hard.
-OR they will invent ways to hide it.
-AND forcing people to be altruistic, doesn't make people better, it actually makes people angry and bitter and not want to voluntarily help others.
-AND giving others money without expecting them to do anything in return, makes them more and more dependent and less and less willing to help themselves.
-There's more....but don't want to go too long. 😜

Thus optimism, without understanding, can actually be harmful if a person reacts due to things they don't fully comprehend. Since they will be reacting in ways that only address a situation in the ways they personally understand it....and not the ways things truly are (due to human nature or scientific facts, etc). You can't hope and wish yourself into a better situation or a better world.

So, those who can't fully understand certain personal decisions they are making (like starting a business or how to invest money etc) are more like to make poor decisions. Like investing money with someone without realizing they should do research first or thinking that buying property is always a good investment.

The other side of this, is of course to not let reality get you down too much!! 😂😂😂 Don't let your high IQ make you always see the complicated sides of things! As @carrieanne said... intelligent optimism! I like that 😊🤗

michael8219

RR: trust but verify.

P: So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

carrieanne

@BoomerSpooner
First of all, reading about your nephew (?) and what your ex-SIL and family are going through is painful. I’m so sorry…I’m trying to imagine the process of going from hope to resignation.
Are we even capable of that kind of acceptance because as humans and the fact that we will never know the future, how can we not ever feel a little bit of hope?
I was once told to accept & visualize my closest family member actually dying and the funeral as the way to deal with her addiction. I couldn’t ever do it. I’m that type of hopeful person.
Meanwhile thanks for the kind words, and when we finally meet for a cuddle, I will return the compliment! Right now, I’m holding my own because I’m still sort of 30!
Is refusing to fully accept reality another form of optimism? Or is that just delusional?
sorry I keep editing!

TheFunCartel

Is refusing to fully accept reality another form of optimism? Or is that just delusional?

I believe that would fall under a coping mechanism.

carrieanne

And btw everyone should keep in mind that those high age numbers we all think of as old are not really old. It’s best to think of OLD as being at least 30 years away no matter how OLD you are. And remember when you are OLD you will know so much more no matter how you have lived.

TheFunCartel

@DaringSprinter @HogboblinZwei I look forward to those grand ideas coming to fruition. Work is always an impediment to our grand schemes and machinations.

carrieanne

Yes, I agree and we all have to do it at times!

michael8219

Great outlook Carrieanne! I guess I’ve got 30 more years…

DaringSprinter

Hey, @sillysassy! I didn't see your message before falling asleep! I guess there's something to be said for automatically reloading message threads... though they do strain some computers a bit.

It's really flattering that you have such fond memories of Hogboblin and me! I'm glad you enjoy our shenanigans.

All things considered, it's probably a good idea to hope for the best... and prepare for the worst. There's a good reason that saying has lasted since 1561! (I also still hold that, if you're going to be surprised, it's better for the surprise to be pleasant than unpleasant, which makes pessimism the cheerfulest option. All your surprises are nice!)

A response to someone else's uncalled-for religious quote: Nothing lasts forever—not belief without evidence, not a feeling of expectation and desire, not deep fondness and caring. These are all human things that die when we do. And in the case of the first one, hooray! The other two are nice while they're here—especially the last one. And yeah: if the subject in question is important, don't trust without also doing some equally serious verification. Don't just have faith that the housebreaker with the knife will leave you alone if you get tied up!

CharlieBear

Hiya @DaringSprinter, nice to see you back on the forums

DaringSprinter

Hey, @CharlieBear. Nice to see so many of the old regulars are still here!

JoyfulHeart

Hi there @DaringSprinter !

Minestrone101

Welcome back. It is good to see a regular member.

On the topic of optimism, I disagree with the premise. In my opinion, bad financial decisions are caused by a lack of financial knowledge and generational trauma. The same can be said of relationships : many people have been in bad ones and make very poor choices at times - also related to personal and familial trauma and not necessarily IQ or intelligence.

One's outlook is just a coping strategy to deal with one's circumstance or even blinders - but I don't think it's related to financial or intellectual health/wealth. If that were true, then the opposite would be true - being richer or being more pessimistic would equal to greater wealth, success, or intelligence. I don't find that to be always true.

Finances and success are topics that are multi-faceted, and it is very difficult to isolate a single variable as the central cause of an outcome unless there is a some type of predisposed bias created before the experiment. Again, family trauma and spending/relationship habits are more of the cause of bad decision making than intelligence or outlook imo - and solving those issues involve multi-layered strategies as ending any generational trauma usually requires.

Also, socioeconomic class and education level plays a part. The book below touches on some of those issues. I recommend it!

Cheers.

DaringSprinter

Hullo, @JoyfulHeart. Good to see you again too.

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@Minestrone101, people keep coming back to the financial thing, but that's not part of the premise at all: it just happens to be the thing they asked people "are you optimistic?" about.

It's handy because it's easy to check and see if people were right in their optimism about money.

Trickier to quantify someone's physical health from year to year: is there a difference between being right that your bum knee was going to support your weight more often and being right that your heart's going to develop a steadier beat and being right that...?

But the premise of the study was "let's take all this data and see if there's a connection between people who are optimistic and people who do well on cognitive ability tests, have x level of education, etc."

What's the relationship between intelligence and optimism?

That's the premise.

Minestrone101

@DaringSprinter I'm not a fan of the premise and how they drew their conclusions. Also, there is supposedly multiple types of intelligence , so measuring intelligence by finances or IQ or relationship or career decisions or drawing a picture are very limiting tests. And then we have to see the researchers and see what kind of biased ideologies and methodologies and predispositions that they had before conducting the research. I guess what I mean is that there are too many variables at play (both dependent and independent) to draw a definitive conclusion imo.

Certain things could change the conclusions drastically : region, socioeconomic class,race, gender , country, way of measuring intelligence, how to interpret the surveyed material (eg - were all the failures left handed, had black hair, went through a divorce , ate salads once a day, etc - at best, they can draw correlations), types of questions asked, famiily dynamics, etc.

To add, every wildly successful person will also say optimism as one of their best attributes to weather hard times. Viktor Frankl detailed the psychological makeup of successful survivors of the Holocaust, and mental composition/attitude (intellect,expectations, willpower) was a strong proponent of how certain individuals thrived and others were broken, became animal like, or joined the enemy. Even the type of optimism and reason for optimism can vary, so to conclude that all optimism leads to the same road is already shaky.

I think it's overly simplistic and too easy to believe and to defer to the devices of the researchers and not fact check them.

DaringSprinter

@Minestrone101, the data's from the Understanding Society survey. A government survey? Free access data? From all across the UK?

And if you want to separate things out, see how optimism linked to just the cognitive tests, or just the education level, or... you can do that too. The study itself is directly linked in both my original post and the summarizing article I linked to.

You can go look at the methodology yourself.

I understand the desire to decide, sight unseen, that researchers, scientists, specialists, and other smart people are just plain lying. How could I not? I'm surrounded by people with that desire, particularly when the data they're being presented with makes them feel bad. It's human.

Tell you what: you go ahead and believe that optimistic people are just as likely to be intelligent (by whatever measure you please) as people who aren't optimistic. Don't look at the correlation between cognitive skills and optimism. Don't look at the data. Just disagree with it, and believe that you're right. You probably are, after all. What are the odds you're wrong? Nah. Let's be optimistic about this.

Don't look.