Maybe have a cap on how high pros can charge. I have seen $140-$150 dollars an hour on some profiles. I think that’s too high/borderline escort prices. I especially brought that up because one profile that I viewed looked shady and she was offering extra services such as coffee dates and scalp massages. My instinct was that she was up to more. One or two of her pics raised an eyebrow.
I don't think there should be a cap. If people want to avoid someone who wants a high price, then letting them price high lets people avoid them. Putting a cap just blends them in with everyone else. It wouldn't change whatever they are doing.
Agreed, people can charge what they want. As unfair and ridiculous as I think it can get this isn't a regulated industry (yet), so pros can set their own pricing and nobody can tell them no. Dodge a bullet if you have to. I can't wait for the day that pricing structures are actually put in place... $80-$100 is usually the going rate for someone who has done the certification and training.
While I respect the right to charge as you wish, I do have to say good luck with finding business . If you charge 2 to 3 times more what others in your location charge I'm sure some money bags will pay just cus they can, but it will be few and far betwe n .
There really is no reason at all to cap prices. Say what you will about capitalism, but those who price gouge generally sink to the bottom unless they are offering a premium service or experience that towers above the rest. In cuddling, I do not see Gucci embroidered on any of the pros foreheads so the capitalist version of natural selection will prevail.
@Catloaf Yea, $80-$100 is the usual rate. What it should be. I saw one cuddler put $155 on her profile and on top of that offer extra services with more money.
Agree with @catloaf. Professionals with experience, training, certifications, etc, generally only go up to $100/hr, some even $60/hr. People can charge what they want, and should. It's a free market. I do find it interesting though the people who choose to charge significantly more than trained professionals in the industry though :-/
I do think that the search results should display the price AND the karma numbers AND average karma, but I know that will take some time to complete...
I don’t see how a certification is of any value. I guess whenever there is an opportunity to make money someone creates a curriculum to seize the opportunity.
@boomerang86 I can see where you're coming from. A certification doesn't really prove anything at the end of the day. With that said, the same can be said of any profession. Someone being certified in something doesn't make them an expert or good at their job, nor does it guarantee what kind of quality work will be done. It says they showed up to class (which you can still account for).
It does a couple of beneficial things for professional cuddling:
Keep in mind that Cuddle Party as well as professional cuddling and the like did not simply spring into existence by someone who had a brain wave and thought, "Hey, let's capitalise on lonely people." This movement was channelled into the underbelly of the mainstream by two sex therapists less than two decades ago - people who are actually educated at the highest level (Masters or Doctoral in many cases depending on where you live) on how touch affects the body.
I've looked at the requirements for cuddling certification, and I do not see the value in the process. It's in no way comparable to a national EMT certification for example where only 60% are able to pass the process, and then they have to also pass state licensing processes. Anyone who has money can pass cuddling certification. I agree with boomerang86's assessment in that it is a way for some people to simply skim more money ($1,000 per person) from the process.
The certification processes I found in research involve cuddling people, paying professionals selling these certificates to cuddle you, reading information you can find on your own, homework that includes thinking of cuddle positions, and paying money to say you are licensed. Nothing happens in these certification processes that cannot happen outside of them. It would not hurt to go through this process, and it might help people who would rather not do it all on their own, but it is in no way going to really decide or demonstrate who is a good cuddler and who is not.
Now, a psychology degree might be useful... but, even psychology and counseling are art forms. A person with no degree but lot of empathy, love, joy, charisma, and insight may do more good than a person with years of training.
People giving massages have the ability to seriously injure a client. They should be regulated and trained on how not to hurt people's bodies. Certification teaches them how to not harm, and licensing makes them open to lawsuits if they do still hurt anyone.
The cuddlers who have brought me the most joy in life were not trained to be cuddlers. They simply are normal people with a gift. They exuded inner peace, confidence, and positivity. One has been a good friend for 4 years now, and I fly across the country to cuddle him. Simply being in his presence is like suddenly being tranquilized and transported to a different version of reality. The experience re-centers my entire being allowing me to dive back into life and responsibilities feeling refreshed!
Does an act that comes naturally and is innate to our species need intense training? Does anyone need to be trained to hug or hold a hand? Does the process of providing comfort to another human need to be over complicated? A 5 second act of kindness can be drawn out into months of training, but it's not needed. Offering comfort does not need to be regulated. The process and the results speak for their selves. Cuddling, and any benefit, was around for thousands of years before modern education came into being.
Dare I propose that the best cuddlers use instinct? A comparison would be mothers who practice attachment parenting and whose children have been shown in various studies to grow into bigger, healthier, more empathetic, and very helpful individuals? This type of parenting has always existed.
There is value in promoting profiles based on karma. I also see that this would be skewed against any new cuddlers who join the site. That could lead to less new women on the site. This could be balanced by also letting people sort profiles from new to old or old to new...
Excellent response @Catloaf . I agree certification doesn't guarantee anything, but I can guarantee that if you take the group which is certified compared to the group which is not certified, the odds are more in your favor that the professional is serious, passionate, and has some idea what they are doing. This may or may not be important to you depending on what you are looking for (particularly important for those dealing with trauma related to abuse, for example). I know I have heard significantly fewer bad stories about certified professionals than ones who aren't. I am in no way saying that there aren't certified professional who suck or non-certified professionals who are amazing, just that there are trends.
@RaindropSweetie There are a great variety of certifications right now and like catloaf pointed out, the industry is still figuring things out, we are still in our infancy. I have gone through cuddlist and it is more than just having money. The course is interactive and to be certified, you need to do a session for someone qualified for assessment or submit a video of your assessment session. I am actually not certified through them yet because there is no one near me and I'm not techie enough to do that video, lol. I did do training in person with one of the leading businesses in the industry out in CA and am certified through them. Again, you can't guarantee everyone who is certified is amazing, but I can all but guarantee that anyone who drops $1,000 on a class, airfare, etc, is someone who cares and loves this work. And considering part of what was brought up about them, is that they are rarely over $100/hr, usually much less, I would be reluctant to spend more on a riskier option.
"People giving massages have the ability to seriously injure a client. They should be regulated and trained on how not to hurt people's bodies." Cuddlers need to learn how to not hurt people as well!!! Emotionally! This is so important. This is a huge risk to those with certain needs not using professionals or going to a poor professional. Absolutely we have the opportunity to do more harm than good! 😞
I can't argue with you that there are some people who just have a natural gift. but are there people in other legitimate industries with training certification classes running around refusing to take the classes, claiming that they are natural and have no need for any classes? I would never take a professional seriously who says that. The best professionals in pretty much any line of work are people out there learning constantly. They love learning about their work and want to be on the up about anything new coming in. They are humble and acknowledge that they don't know everything and there are always new things to learn.
I'm glad you have had good experiences with non certified professionals. Not everyone can say that. You are lucky. I have heard endless bad stories about them, which pushes people away from the service and makes them more skeptical of professionals in general. It is very frustrating. Admittedly, probably makes me bitter 😉 I do understand and know that there ARE awesome professionals who are not certified. I just also know that the odds are more in your favor with the certified professionals.
This service and this industry most certainly needs to grow into more certifications and regulation. There is so much harm that we can do in not knowing what we're doing. Karma means little more on here than showing that the person is real, had a session, showed up, didn't steal, or kill anyone. The actual words in the karma can sometimes indicate a little bit more, but still not always. I have known people to be banned who had awesome karma. I have seen clients who suck and push boundaries, who have had awesome karma. I have known professionals to have good karma who aren't really anything to write home about (stories from the clients who posted the karma). The system as it is, most people will not write a bad karma, so you can only gleam so much from it).
This response is way too long, lol. But basically, there is so much harm in professionals in any industry thinking that they don't need any training. Anyone doing any work, in any line, in any industry, can stand to learn through education. it doesn't do anyone any good, in your career or not, to walk around acting as though you know all that you need to know.
I think what @RaindropSweetie is pointing out and I agree is not all certifications are created equal. Cuddling is decidedly not rocket science vs. EMT certification and ensuing recertification on the latest medical advances. Cuddling certification impresses me not a wit.
As far as becoming more mainstream and being accepted, I think an organization with dues that has a comprehensive PR campaign is the way to go. Exposure on the news, morning shows, and radio shows are what makes something mainstream. To the average layperson it is comical to say you have a certification in cuddling when you can go on-line and get the same info and be proficient inside an hour.
@FunCartel As someone who has actually DONE classes, I will disagree. As someone who has NOT done the classes, you can't possibly say whether the information is either valuable or something you can otherwise learn in an hour or not. We will never agree on this subject. There are both natural skills and things which you learn in a classroom. I am a much better professional then I was a year-and-a-half ago because of everything I have learned from other professionals and in classes, to combine with what I am and can do naturally. To say that we should be able to learn from other professionals for free that which they have spent time and money learning, is really inconsiderate. Some information may be free, but not all. But anyway, people who are just looking for fun may be able to get by just fine and enjoy non trained professionals. I still say that people who are in need of a more therapeutic experience are at a much lower risk in general in going with trained professionals, and they may be at a benefit to ask specifically as to which training they have done. There are some professionals who have a psychology degree, for example. It is to be noted, that the professionals I know with these degrees also have participated in cuddling training. The best professionals in any industry are humble and always interested in learning.
FunCartel is correct.
While I agree that someone willing to pay $1000 to say they are certified does demonstrate something, I have looked through the available courses and found nothing in the courses that makes them necessary. The only interesting thing that cuddlers could benefit from, everyone would benefit from, was CPR/First Aid certification on one of them. I already have a medical provider's version of that. As someone who is an avid learner and career college student, studying everything from education to medicine for a decade, I do not shy away from learning. I say this to point out that a $1000 cuddle course has less substance than a single college class that costs a third of the price with a much more intensive curriculum....
Yes, people can be hurt emotionally, but even psychotherapists with 4-10 yr degrees still hurt feelings and make mistakes. One course won't prevent much if someone does not already know how to not hurt feelings. The two are incomparable in the sense that one can disable and damage a person's body causing long term ailments.
What I do think the certification courses provide for some cuddlers is a sense of the methodical... That could be a good thing if someone wants that feeling in a cuddle interaction. Some people may need or want that sort of interaction. Some people may benefit from a more laid back and natural approach as well. If someone has spent time in a clinical setting, they may not want more time that echos that experience. Both types are available, and that is good. People need options. I would not say that someone not going through the certification process is only good for "fun" cuddles. As I wrote before, people can be therapeutic without this certification process.
I'm happy to hear that you feel that you improved from these classes. My point is that people can be great without them as well. We can all agree on that, so they are not something that all people would need.
It just wears on me a bit seeing the topic represented as if the certifications are a golden standard or represented as necessary when they do not compare to other educational and certification processes. Many people do not know what you actually have to do to get them, and paying the money is indeed the defining factor for these courses. It's a bit like an online degree from a fake college. People pay quite a bit for them, but when they go to use them they lack substance and are not usable. Take that with a grain of salt, because I know my metaphors can be taken in a hurtful way when not intended. This is intended to neutrally compare the high money value for low educational/product return on that investment. I do think it's good if someone is seeking to be certified, because it does show that you are interested in that route. I don't think anyone else should be seen as any less for not choosing to go the same route considering the status of the matter. People can promote their certifications without implying others are less for not having them.
It's a bit backhanded, it makes some female cuddlers on site feel unwelcome, and I see it very often from 2-3 members of the site. This constant sort of malignment, for lack of a better term, is a major reason why some other female cuddlers avoid the forums. A few have spoken to me about it. People can say, "I'm certified and have worked hard. Please hire me." There's no need to say, "I'm certified, and others who are not are not serious, scary, and risky so stay away." Can everyone see the difference? One breeds negativity, and the other is positive and speaks for itself. I would like to see the positive statements not brought down by the negative.
Cuddling is one of those interactions where people just have to trust their intuition and really talk to whoever they plan to cuddle to get the best results. People on site have also told me horror stories. I cannot say how these interactions may have been avoided. It is a bit like shopping for a therapist, doctor, teacher, etc. While everyone in the field may have the same education, or some less, their personalities and drive to help others will make a huge difference in how well they do their job. Some just go through the motions of what they were taught without any passion, understanding, or care. Some go above and beyond to touch the hearts and minds of many. Some will definitely not be in ones best interest to hire, but a few will outshine the others in terms of compatibility.
@RaindropSweetie "The two are incomparable in the sense that one can disable and damage a person's body causing long term ailments." That is saying that the other form of harm is lesser. One thing that was reiterated to me in mental health first aid (more education) is that we CANNOT compare different people's struggles. We CANNOT rank the significance of any one person's individual struggle or difficulty in life. That invalidates one person's struggle if you claim it's not as bad as someone else's.
I did not say or imply that one form of harm is lesser. That's putting words into my mouth. If anything, you are reminding me of why medical degrees are so necessary. If you are worried about harm, then no one without a medical license to practice psychotherapy should be able to cuddle. Anything less can cause harm. Would you be willing to pause cuddling to get a doctorate in order to best serve your clients?
So if one is not less important or less significant, then we can compare the two? They are both significant and equally important to avoid causing for someone else. Ok. Then we agree.
Anyone can cause harm. The goal is risk reduction. And yes, in my first year of cuddling I engaged in several different efforts to improve my education and preparation for working with clients in all different situations. And I have continued this year in taking both mental health first aid and asist training. I am always looking for more ways to be better prepared for working with people with different needs. But no, we do not need to get a doctorate in psychotherapy. We are not therapists. What is important is acknowledging this and encouraging our clients to seek a therapist when necessary. And being clear in our communication with people that what we do does not substitute for talk therapy. But just because we are not therapists does not mean that we cannot cause harm, and that it is important to understand our boundaries in what we are prepared to handle and to educate ourselves to the best of our ability in order to reduce the risk of harm as much as possible.
The skills being argued are ones that are applicable to things other than cuddling . Not sure I'm following what it has to do with cuddling in terms of the certification process . You aren't teaching therapy and clinical Ed through cuddling certification .
@pmvines Absolutely spot on. Agree 100%. This is what @RaindropSweetie is essentially saying that some are not grasping.
"The skills being argued are ones that are applicable to things other than cuddling." Yes. True. But most people in our society don't know these things, which is one reason why professional cuddlers are needed. But since someone is paying us for this, we are expected to have these skills and knowledge. I think most "professionals" in this industry still don't know these things even though they are charging for it. Using a professional who has the credentials may not guarantee that they have the natural skills, but it at least tells you that they care enough to try to learn all that they can, and they are most likely to have the knowledge to do a good job, even if they don't have the natural skills or the experience to be quite there yet. Personally, when I am looking for who to pay for a session, they would be humble enough to either have the education or are actively seeking to be educated. I have personally met and talked to professionals across the country and Canada, and every professional I would recommend to someone looking for a professional, is one who has taken the effort for more education. After that, I would see how their vibe is and whether I feel accepted and experience zero judgment with them. I wouldn't be attracted to anyone who thinks they have nothing to learn, that they are perfect and already know everything. Part of what made me see that this is truly something I want to be doing is that I am so excited about any class related to it. I love this work and I love to learn all I can. I can't imagine doing something which I am not interested in learning everything about and related, and can't begin to comprehend having the feeling that I already know everything I need to know about something. Learning never stops.
On this note, I do feel that everyone in our society should take the mental health first aid class and the ASIST training class. I didn't learn a TON, because of my background in psychology and my natural tendency towards compassion and acceptance, but both classes had a lot of great information which our society could really stand to learn more about. I learned something from each class.
I have cuddled two “certified” cuddlers and one even broke down the certification process that she lamented ever having done, and I am not impressed. Moreover, neither of these cuddlers are anywhere near my top 20 cuddlers. This is partially because, I believe, it is a natural skill that cannot be faked. These cuddlers also did what I see above....so busy telling me how great they were because they had a certification that they did not pick up on me wanting them to shut up. I run from certified. A piece of paper does not offer empathy to the client but it does seem to bolster the self-esteem of the person receiving the dead tree document.
This is why I do admire @RaindropSweetie as she does seem to understand the purpose of cuddling without the exaggeration that it is an elixir for all manner of ills. I also know that since she is an EMT she does empathize with true stress as she is exposed to it daily in situations I would not want to imagine. I imagine she understands pain all too well.
Finally, another reason certification does not do much for me is that this industry is already commodified. Therefore, why would you want to bring it under the limiting oversight of the mental health community, and by extension, the Federal Government? While I am not accusing anyone on this site of this, there are some indirect implications if you organize. The money becomes larger than the individual contractors and this leads to “unregulated” greed. I point to the supplements industry that has been unregulated for over 50 years and has a trade association lobbying group to lobby the FDA AGAINST being legitimate. First, the ridiculous margins they make would be eroded, and then the pharmaceutical giants would crush them in matter of months. Same thing with massage therapy which has gained traction but has the issue that the insurance industry lobbies to disprove any claims of medical benefits so they will not have to cover that therapy. Just food for thought.
Funcartel- very well put. If someone does not enjoy a session with a pro (certified or uncertified) they will not return for another session.
glances at the elephant
The reason professionals get paid is their willingness to take unpleasant gigs.
People getting their needs met freely are unlikely to spend money getting those needs “extra” met.
At this stage of cuddling as a profession, the “certifications” are 95% marketing, and 5% technical.
I’m sure an enthusiastic, focused student might pick up a technique, or a good work habit, here and there, but certifications are currently a way to put potential clients at ease.
Question for the professionals in this informative discussion:
If you were designing a certification program, what would your focus be?
Can you sum it up in five bullet points?
Mine:
1) Boundaries, exploration, verbal and non-verbal communication, connection, and disengagement.
2) The clients needs, the agreement, the contract, payments, follow ups, continuing sessions.
3) Preparing the space. Ambience as a function of light, sound, aroma, air flow, and textures.
4) The art of small talk. Reflective listening, active listening, voice control, whispers, murmurs, and giggles.
5) How to touch. The caress, the deep hold, positions for healing, positions of safety, non-invasive massage, breath matching, etc.
Yep. There are poor professionals in any industry, no matter the qualifications. I'm sorry you had that experience 😔. The bigger problem I see and want people to be able to avoid is the massive number of people coming in thinking this is easy money, giving people the impression they are just waiting for it to be over so they can leave with their money, "professionals" not understanding what this is and offering "other" services, and otherwise not meeting the minimum standards of service. There is no way to filter out professionals who are just bad at this without talking or experiencing their session directly, but the things I list can mostly be filtered out by different qualifications. But we can disagree on whether that is necessary or not. I just get tired of people saying the service isn't worth paying for because they have sessions with "professionals" who just lie there like a cold fish and just seem like they're waiting for it to be over. There needs to be some barrier for entry, whatever that is. This is an expensive service, and anyone with a pretty face can come here and convince people to give them money. On pages that require training, there is at least that barrier to only let through those who are serious and passionate about providing this service. The bigger this gets and more accepted it becomes in society, the better we will be. Cometition and knowledge of options. I don't know, but I appreciate the conversation.
Whether it is easy money depends on the client. If the client is a pleasure to deal with (respects boundaries, doesn’t smell, a decent conversationalist) it is easy money. If the client is Uncomfortable to spend time with it is not easy money. The pro has the option to not let them book again to avoid these problematic clients. It is almost like getting a hair cut- if it is a bad one it is time to find a new barber.
@CharlesTwisted I travel a lot, aiming to go places wherever I am needed or requested, usually for lack of current options. I would like to be able to meet with people interested in this work in those locations so that my clients who have a deeper need are able to continue seeing someone more frequently than I visit. Number one would be just talking with them to assure that they have a genuine care for people and a true lack of judgment and complete acceptance for all people. You can't teach that. If they pass that, then I would move on to positions and touch, how to deal with conflict with clients and maintaining and holding boundaries, and of course consent and exercises with Yes and No. Aside from that, general tips on communication within a session. People here won't believe me, but there is so much to that, I can't even begin to type it. I'm tired, lol.
@boomerang86 Even your "easy" client you describe would not be easy money for someone who is not meant to do this work. The problem is this is advertised in a way that makes it seem easy to everyone. Most people like to cuddle, it's fun, no physical labor it seems, etc. "Easy money." What is not easy for the majority of people is meeting a stranger and being ready to jump right into cuddling with them. People who come in thinking this is easy money find out pretty quickly that it's not so easy as soon as they meet with their first client. Most people can't jump into cuddling with a stranger. For those of us who love this work, yes, your description of an easy client is pretty easy 😊 But that comes in the same package as the not so easy clients, in addition to all the time and effort spent not with clients - websites, education, communication, being active in forums, haha, getting together with other professionals to share ideas and advice, etc. A very small portion of what I do is actually cuddling... Unfortunately.
@ubergigglefritz You are painting in large brushstrokes to justify your business model. I can appreciate the extra work you put in but quite frankly, @boomerang86 is correct, if no one likes the service then they will not return. If I were an uncertified cuddler I would resent your implications that they think it is easy money or that they are prostitutes. Some of the best cuddlers I have ever had were non-pros, followed by uncertified pros, with certified pros bringing up the rear. Are there sex workers on here-yup and they are easily detected and reported. The problem I had with the certified pros is the same problem you get with many young graduate students—they are too anxious to tell you what they know that they lose sight of the reason they are there. I know my experience is not everybody’s but I have also chatted up some other certified pros and the condescension can get very thick pretty quick.
I definitely am not saying that all uncertified professionals are prostitutes or just there for the easy money. I had no training when I started and was neither of those things 😉 I'm sorry your worst experiences were with certified professionals. I am just saying that there is definitely value and need in them, but maybe not for all clients. Just like with any other professional, some people need someone with more training than others. I took a pilates class at work once. I have a history of knee issues so her education and skills were not up to par for being able to guide me through the positions without hurting my knees. Everyone else there thought she was great, but if I am to take pilates I would need to take it from someone who has gone through the training necessary to know how to deal with my body's issues. Similarly, someone who is working through significant issues from past trauma needs to be extra careful as to who they pay to help them work through their discomfort around touch. The right professional for them may or may not be certified, but the odds are higher with a certified professional with significant experience, so with the added care needed, I would generally recommend going with a certified professional for them. People who are just lonely or looking for some relaxation time and have no "issues" to work through, have little risk in going with whoever. Like @CharlesTwisted mentioned, the certification adds a little bit of safety for those who need that. Not everyone needs that, and that is fine.
I can appreciate all the feedback given on this topic. As someone who wants to be certified eventually (I might actually stop being scared and take the plunge this year), I agree with both sides - a certificate really does and proves diddly squat...but on the same hand, I really believe it's something that is taking the industry into the infancy stages of becoming an accepted practice. At the end of the day, the biggest determinant of a good cuddler is personal - what are they like on the inside and how does that transition to their interactions? If a person is narcissistic, they will take that trait into any situation - including ones where they get training only to use as a bragging point, which is exactly what @FunCartel described. Those who are not high on that narcissistic spectrum would probably make great cuddlers given that they have empathy, caring, and understanding... trained or not. I'm sure we could all agree on that?