Hard and Deep: Free Will

exsanguinate

Hello, denizens of Cuddle Comfort!

The purpose of this thread is to ask a series of questions that some might find hard, or deep. I see it as a sort of break from the innumerable posts about a lack of enthusiasts, how we present ourselves online, and so on. Perhaps, if things go well, we can find others who share our views, or even learn something new. Be warned: debates may occur within. Here are the questions:

Does free will exist? Do you think it’s an innate feature of our species? If not, from where does it derive? If we have free will, is it possible to deprive another of their own? Is free will more nuanced than simply having it, or lacking it?

What fun.

johnk963

When I look at my moment to moment experience, I see that thoughts and intentions arise prior to the awareness of them. From this I can see that consciousness is just along for the ride. Since the self I typically identify with is that consciousness, I have no free will in that sense. I don't see any way that whatever subconscious processes cause those thoughts and intentions to bubble up into consciousness could be separate from the cause and effect I see in the world, I don't believe there is any free will to be found there, either.

Please define "free will"

MrPaul

Ask yourself, “Can I choose to do what I want to do?” If the answer is yes, you have free will. I cannot imagine not having free will. One could even be enslaved and live a limited life but still have the freedom of thought in your mind. Who can ever take that from you as long as you are alive?

poolman

George orwell's 1984 explored free will - Winston had free will and was (although limitedly) able to act with free will but after his encounter at the Ministry of Love, his resulting mental condition has lost not only his ability to act with free will but his free will all together. From https://www.coursehero.com/file/15119795/Free-Will-and-1984-Outline/

exsanguinate

@creedhands

BashfulLoner

I believe we absolutely have free will, being without constraints part is tricky. But the trick is the same reason you can deprive another of free will. The biggest impact on free will is fear, if we were free of fear we would be equipped to do anything. Fear of loss, pain, loss restricts us from doing many things, this is the reason why gamblers in some circumstances are the happiest people on earth. Especially when the gamble produces wins. I’m not speaking of a card game gambler, I’m speaking of the individual who has the confidence to take risks,

pmvines

If we truly were guided by free will social norms , customs , laws, and constraints would not exist . Have you ever seen The Purge ?

BoomerSpooner

@pmvines Karen Carpenter inspired The Purge.

UKGuy

We have free will but within boundaries. An extreme example would be an internee in a concentration camp can choose to scratch their nose or scratch their head.

BashfulLoner

Hedonism

pmvines

Satanism embraces the concept of free will and hedonism, and even then they don't embrace harm for the sake of harming

pmvines

...

Sideon

Pure free will exists is a theory, but humans cannot "act at one's own discretion" without the consideration to take responsibility and accept consequences. Our actions/inactions under the auspice of "free will" makes us a conundrum of contradictions (will I/won't I, do I/don't I dualities...). Taking responsibility for oneself seems mankind's biggest collective failing at a macro level, which begins at the individual level.

Religionists would pair free will with being free from sin. "The devil made me do it" excuses for that which is collectively unacceptable, and "glory to God" for reasons which are ambiguously ethereal and "pleasing." The religionist definition is inherently flawed because free will is used as a bludgeon to "choose to be righteous" - that's not a choice - that's a mandate. No thanks. I'll do good to do good, not because a supposed prophet (Moses, Joan of Arc, Zoraster, Joel Osteen, etc ...) tells me so.

I'll choose for myself, not because a man/woman who says God/gods/goddesses told him/her so to tell me, but because I'll evaluate based on where I am and where I'm going. For example, at times I may be more kind than selfish/self-serving, and other times more selfish/self-serving than kind. I tend to fall back on flight safety lessons any day: take care of yourself first before taking care of those around you. "Free will" to me means self-care and self-regard and being honest, because there are times I will choose poorly, and I get to own that. Neither the devil nor God(s) had anything to do with it.

When I read "Hard and Deep" I was going to report it, I was shocked. Thank God I clicked on it and read the whole thing. Should I be ashamed of myself? Yes! 🤦

CreativeCuddles

@MemberofLDS No, my mind went there as well but then I was directed in the right direction then read @BashfulLoner ’s “Hedonism” and figured then my mind was really confused 🤷‍♀️

exsanguinate

Oooh, some lovely responses so far. I’ll go ahead and quickly add my thoughts on the matter:

I don’t believe that free will exists. On a macro scale, society precludes it. I’m not talking about laws, but rather the culture and ideologies we’re surrounded by as we develop. Those things wriggle their way into our heads, with smaller units (such as the family, social circles, etc) acting as filters for how one perceives the world around them—or rather, the sliver of the world around them. As social creatures, we cannot shirk the burden of human history and thought.

On a micro (individual) scale—who has absolute control of the chemicals buzzing around in their brain? Of the automatic responses (informed by one’s upbringing and societal influence) to something delightful, fearsome, or repulsive? I like to think that someone out there has read this post and found it at least a little disquieting.

Going even further, our being living creatures nullifies or negates conscious thought. We must have company, food, and a means of reproducing—or die. And self-inflicted death is a struggle, even if one should wish for it. Society condemns it, and the body rebels before the mind slips into oblivion; a person who failed to snap their neck with a noose will struggle to free themselves until they expire by asphyxiation, for example.

But hey, the idea of free will imparts a sense of control. People like to feel in control.

hillbilly

Isn't taking away your freedom the driving premise behind modern society? Politics, religion, economics, laws and customs are all to herd you into very limited option scenarios. When was the last time you did anything entirely on your own terms? Have you ever? Free will is kind of like the Easter Bunny. I've heard about both, but never seen either one-

BoomerSpooner

But you used free will to start a thread on free will. There was no determinism to it.

exsanguinate

@FunCartel

Nah, I have a predilection for amateur philosophy, and deal with insomnia in stupid ways. This sort of thing is the result of the culture I’ve absorbed (and an inability to sleep).

BashfulLoner

I mean laws and government really don’t limit you in any way. Should we chose to anything they restrict we could. But we also understand consequence. we could isolate from each other and not reproduce and yes the species will perish but if we had the will to do that we could. I through hedonism into the mix because some would be a relentless pursuit of pleasure, Some would use drugs all day or drink all day. There will be gluttonous folk as well. But as we know all of those things are true today, but not many polarizing behaviors, and that likely wouldn’t change because we are drawn to each other, and influence each other.

BoomerSpooner

@exsanguinate you deal with insomnia in stupid ways? And you know they are stupid?

@CreativeCuddles Same

geoff1000

The very religious say everything that happens is according to God's will.
The very scientific say that our actions are simply the product of chemical reactions and other physical processes, which have a determined outcome ; like pulling out the pin of a hand-grenade causes it to explode.

Free will is simply a concept to describe these behaviours. If a person robs a bank and is caught, we put them in jail. Do we care if God made them rob the bank, so our justice system would put them in jail ; or that they are an accumulation of molecules which we need protecting from, and which we should try to change to prevent a repeat ?

If a person I want to cuddle, decides they want to cuddle with me, I take the view of the characters in The Matrix ; it is very nice, and I don't really care if it somehow "isn't real".

BoomerSpooner

Neuroscience has proclaimed that free will does not exist in the last 20 years but a few professors have knocked several cracks into that theory. They did a large study about 5 years ago where you had those who believed in free will, those who did not believe in free will and then a third group. This third group were people who believed in free will but were now questioning after being shown evidence that free will does not exist. They were all given envelopes full of money and told to take out exactly $1. The results? The third group whose faith was shaken took more out than allowed, those who did not believe in free will at all did it frequently and those who believed in free will were the most honest. Studies on charitable giving, volunteering and something as simple as allowing someone to borrow your phone demonstrated those who did not believe in free will were far less likely to give or volunteer. I find this compelling and disturbing in that studies like these suggest that science and technology in its pursuit of pure fact seems to destroy the humanity that binds us together. Is it so important to prove that free will does not exist? At what cost? And extending this further, we seem to be entering an era that since we have the science and technology to do a thing, we are asking less and less if there is intrinsic value to mankind in doing it, other than to serve science or the extremely wealthy. These are more important questions than if free will exists.

MrPaul

I’m a realist. As I see it, if I choose to act or to merely think in any capacity whatsoever, I’m exercising my free will, independent of any external influence. We are more than a collection of rule-based behavioral organisms; nor are we the product of purely random or organized chemical impulses. The norms of our society do influence our thoughts and behaviors, but only to a limited extent. Consider that the will to do is present prior to the act of doing.

I’m of the opinion that those who would deny the presence of free will wish to avoid the responsibility of taking ownership of their own thoughts and actions.

BoomerSpooner

@MrPaul you touched on a troubling aspect of the assertion made by neuroscience who essentially say you don’t control your thoughts and decisions, biology does. Defense attorneys have taken much of the research and stretched it into a legal defense—he had no choice to do x. I read that this defense has increased like 80% since 2000. The belief that we have no control has far-reaching ethical implications, and if you look around, seems to permeate world politics and leaders.

BoomerSpooner

FOUND IT! This article explains it much better than I do. I read this a long time ago and it is one of those rare articles that sticks with you:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/480750/

exsanguinate

@MrPaul

“I’m of the opinion that those who would deny the presence of free will wish to avoid the responsibility of taking ownership of their own thoughts and actions.”

How have you concluded that? Seems like a personal bias.

exsanguinate

@FunCartel

It appears that the main reason we need the idea of free will is a bunch of back-patting, “Isn’t humanity neat” nonsense—that’s what I got from the article.

I don’t find that convincing.

MrPaul

@FunCartel
An interesting article! Thanks for the link.

Abuse of science in courtrooms is rampant.

I see free will as a topic that can be discussed and debated to great extent without ever being settled. Sufficient evidence to prove either view is either not convincing or not present. Fun to think about, though.

@exsanguinate
I developed my opinion based on logic. If free will exists, individuals must be accountable; if it does not, personal accountability is at least questionable, and at most entirely deniable.

So, given that I believe free will exists, what evidence would sway my opinion? If someone or something could accurately predict all future experiences and choice outcomes I make in my life based on all current and past information about me, I would fully accept that there is no free will.

I present the same question to you. What evidence would sway your opinion?

Thanks for posting this topic. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss a thought-provoking topic.