Deep Thought Monday: Self-Care v. Selfish and Shame . . . Pls Weigh In

[Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)
in General

I've noticed again and again that cuddlers here, both enthusiasts and pros, describe themselves as "givers." I started thinking about this language over the weekend and here are my reflections.

Of course, it sounds much better to say you are a giver rather than a taker. lol And while I do believe there are some people who are truly givers in their soul, I also believe most people are a combination of giver and receiver (we'll say that rather than taker!) in that they give when needed, but also want and need to receive, however, to say that is shameful or bad.

I've been in counseling for over a year for personal issues, much of it surrounding love and relationships and how my beliefs affect my self-love and self-worth, and doing a lot of self work on my own. I am one of those people who use to say I was a giver. But I've realized I am not a giver, but I thrive on being a Helper (I am a Type 2 Enneagram, The Helper) so, as a pro cuddler, I want to help people who need touch and affection.

Of course, even as a pro, I receive benefit from cuddling clients, even if I am not the focus on the attention. But what is sad? bothersome? upsetting? to me is there are clients who almost insist on being a giver rather than simply taking the time to enjoy attention being focused on them and having their need for touch fulfilled. I feel like men have this issue even more because of society telling males they need to be dominant/in control, making it difficult for some/many man to allow themselves to be cared for and vulnerable.

I've also learned there is a difference between self-love and being selfish. One is being vulnerable enough to admit your needs and putting your Self out there and making those needs valid/a priority to your well-being. The other is believing you DESERVE to be a receiver, at all costs and at no consideration to others.

However, I feel many humans confuse self-love with being selfish and don't ask for what they need, and don't feel comfortable openly accepting what they need when it is offered, even if they are paying for it. :) As noted above, there seems to be this feeling of shame surrounding taking care of your Self (yes, your capital Self) and admitting your needs for self-care/self-love openly and honestly.

I have a ton more thoughts about this topic, but would love to hear what your thoughts are on the above. Thank you for reading! ~ Julie

Comments

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod

    👍

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)
    edited February 2021

    This kind of thing always stymies me. Why's it so difficult for people to use certain words?

    Now, me, I have no trouble saying I'm a taker, not a giver. Whatever I do, the end goal is my own benefit. I don't do nice things to help people, for instance—when I do nice things, it's because doing nice things makes me feel good. It's not about the person I'm being nice to. I don't care about them; they could be anybody and it wouldn't matter so long as I felt good.

    That's normal, so far as I can tell. Everyone puts number one first. And what's wrong with that? Humans are a social species: what benefits you often also benefits those around you.

    Humans are selfish. Heck, every living thing is. The trick is to make it beneficial for more than just the one, individual selfish organism.

    Take cuddling, for instance.

    Cuddling benefits me. That's why I do it. But it also benefits my buddies. That's not why I cuddle! I don't do it for them! But that doesn't matter—they benefit anyway. And now imagine you're the kind of person who gets a boost from knowing that your actions are benefitting someone else: Double benefit! Bonus!

    Of course that's selfish. We're all selfish. That's normal. Healthy, even.

    Just don't get entitled about it and you'll be fine. Doesn't matter how happy it makes you to, say, make other people happy—you're not entitled to their happiness, and if you demand it I'd be perfectly pleased to watch them smack you.

  • [Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)
    edited February 2021

    @DarrenWalker you are one fairly well adjusted grown ass adult then. lol I agree that, to some degree, it's about word choice and perception. Selfish is not bad in the vein of self-love but the definition is to be inconsiderate to others, even to the point of rudeness.

    Yes, we are all selfish on the most base level of survival. But, as you point out, while most of us do things that benefit our Self and make us feel good, we do care if our actions hurt others at the same time. Maybe that is the difference--the intent.

    But, yes, as I point out, it is hard for people to admit they are doing something to benefit their Self because from childhood we are taught being selfish is "bad" and "wrong." How many times did your mom or teacher or other adult figure tell you "don't be selfish!" with a chiding tone??

    That's why I've chosen to say it's about loving myself (self-love, inward focusing) rather than being selfish (which is drenched in negativity, sadly or not).

    Thank you for weighing in. I appreciate your views. ~ Julie

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    Yeah I think a lot of people get a lot of benefit from touching and caressing others. So it seems like they're giving but in actuality they are taking. People who are tactile and like to feel things are usually actively moving their hands around feeling their partner. In my experience the people who really want to be caressed will tell you.

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)

    @SuperSnuggler2: Eh... I don't quite see how caring if your actions hurt others is opposed to doing things that benefit you and make you feel good. I mean. If hurting others makes you feel bad, you're probably going to avoid hurting others. And if hurting others makes you feel good—well!

    In both cases, you definitely care whether your actions hurt others. After all, it affects you, doesn't it? If hurting others didn't do good or bad things for you (not physically, not emotionally, not socially)... well. Why care?

    Anyway. I dunno how well-adjusted I am (probably depends on what I'm supposed to be adjusted to), but your post kind of reads to me like you want your cuddle buddies to give you the pleasure of taking active care of them while they relax passively, and you're insinuating that it's maybe unhealthy for them to not give you what you want. Which, hey, what do I know, maybe it is.

    But either way, it might help to look at things from an angle less focused on giving vs. receiving, and more on what people actually want.

    Maybe. Could do.

  • [Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)
    edited February 2021

    @DarrenWalker lol... the post is not about me at all. Well, it is my thoughts. But on the most general level, I was trying to convey that it seems many people have a hard time honestly expressing their needs and, to me, that seems to be because of the shame around what is considered “negative” as defined by society’s “rules.” And THAT is unhealthy.

    Clear as mud??

    Anyway again thank you for presenting a differing view. I appreciate your time in sharing.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life
    edited February 2021

    Huh... On the surface (only having spent a few minutes to consider the OP), I see my cuddle relationships to be a 50/50 / 100-51

    50% I give/They recieve
    50% They give/I receive
    100-51%² All to over 50%, is self-care related. ² because if each of us aren't getting something meaningful to ourselves in the exchange, I wouldn't want to be involved.

    The way I see it is, when you receive you're still giving ~ in that you're giving your consent to be given to. Same with when having your giving received. Their consent to your giving is received by you.

    Considering: Feeling bad/shameful from receiving... Perhaps if ignoring your "gut", allowing yourself to be coerced/giving up more of yourself than fully comfortable with, it makes sense one would feel shame ~ I mean if you don't have it within you to be your best self-advocate, and/or communicate with your partner, then yes, "receiving" may feel shameful. But in that same regard so might "giving". We've all gotta keep all those boundaries in mind, and in check.

    I suppose if one "dead fishes" they may also feel shame (but I kind of doubt it because narcissists don't tend to feel shame in that way as it's only about what they want and their partner is there to facilitate that).

    Overall, I think it's important to value what you get out of the cuddle as much as what you put into it. I can see this being totally different for a pro/client relationship, but even then ~ if I wasn't getting something other than financial compensation for my job, I'd be looking for another one (there just isn't enough time and energy nor money in the world to make up for suffering through daily misery that can be avoided).

    Also (imo) as long as there's a healthy balance and communication between those involved, and each is getting their desired minimums (for actively giving and receiving), then cuddle on!

    But if for whatever reason you don't feel good about it, it's an invitation from yourself to figure out why and to do something about it.

    🤗💓🤗💯%
    edited for clarity [hopefully] ~ yikes self, maybe don't be so quick to respond next time...

  • cuddles_ndreamcuddles_ndream

    Julie you bring up a lot of amazing points! @Sashamcgee i completely agree with your sentiment 🌌

  • cuddleversedcuddleversed

    I found this part interesting so I am gonna comment on it.

    " But what is sad? bothersome? upsetting? to me is there are clients who almost insist on being a giver rather than simply taking the time to enjoy attention being focused on them and having their need for touch fulfilled."

    This is a true statement, most men (myself included) thrive on being givers, whatever the reason is for it, society, personality, men just being men, take your pick.

    There are two ways at looking at this because there are pro cuddlers and enthusiasts. If I hire a pro cuddler I want the session to be tailored to my liking and that would be me being the giver, the one that cuddles the other person, the one caressing, the one enveloping, the one providing the comfort because that is what I like, that is what makes me feel good
    and that is how I want my session to be.

    And if I am with another enthusiast then there is more freedom to try things that we both like because the session is not being tailored to my liking because we're both enthusiasts. That being said I've found over the years and in my time in CC that most women are more than happy to let me lead and be the one cuddling them and giving them comfort. And I always ask if there is something they'd like to be doing but they're just happy (as I am) enjoying the moment.

    There have been a couple of times when I was asked to be cuddled and I of course said yes and it was nice but it wasn't an eye opening moment where I realized I was missing something in my life, no, it was just another part of a cuddling moment that was enjoyable but it made me think that I wanted to be back in the giving role...

    I guess that is just how I'm wired and from what you wrote there are a lot of men that feel the same way so I am sorry that is upsetting to you and I hope you were able to communicate with your cuddling partner and let him know that it would be very fulfilling to you to be in the giver role. Now if you are in a pro cuddler role then things change some because the pro session should be tailored to your client's needs and preferences.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life
    edited February 2021

    PS ~ Love the Deep Thought Monday!
    Totally kicked my brain into gear!!
    So thank you @SuperSnuggler2!! 😊

    adding
    Hrm... @cuddleversed ~
    If not too personal... Can you clarify what it looks like for you to be the sole giver? I just realized that I don't know what it would look like to not be simultaneously giving/receiving in a cuddle. Is it like a 'big spoon'/holding them situation, giving a massage, or??? Do they not also touch/hold you?
    Thanks.

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod
    edited February 2021

    If I hire a pro cuddler I want the session to be tailored to my liking and that would be me being the giver,

    That statement makes no sense. You are not 'being' the giver, you are being the receiver - the professional is doing all the giving. You are paying the professional to give you the feeling of being the giver. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of that (I've done it myself) but don't confuse the feeling of giving with actually giving.

    but it made me think that I wanted to be back in the giving role..

    No it didn't. You have it back to front. In that moment of 'being cuddled' when you didn't really want to be you were the giver, and your implication is that you didn't like it. You wanted to go back to being the enveloper, which is the bit you like, and is the bit where you are the receiver.

    In a cuddle, you can't tell from the position who is 'giving'. Might be the big spoon, might be the little spoon, might be both, might be neither.

    In general, if you are enjoying what you are doing that is a warning sign that you might not be giving at all.

  • cuddleversedcuddleversed

    @CuddleDuncan thanks man, I haven’t laughed so hard while reading a response to a comment in like ...ever! 😂😂😂😂

  • [Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)
    edited February 2021

    @cuddleversed thank you for providing a different way of looking at giving v. receiving. I am a pro now, but have been an enthusiast in the past, so I am focused on providing a wonderful, memorable session for my clients and, honestly, I've never thought that might be them being the giver. I focus on me doing the "work" since they were paying but I see now that being the giver might be a great session for them!

    I will add that I have heard from men who paid a professional and had horrible experiences. For example, a pro who showed up and promptly fell asleep when he really wanted to be cuddled/held.

    I suppose like most things in life it comes down to honest conversation to establish expectations and voice what one would like from the session, be it pro or enthusiast.

    @quixotic_life you're welcome---thank you for chiming in!

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    @SuperSnuggler2 "I will add that I have heard from men who paid a professional and had horrible experiences. For example, a pro who showed up and promptly fell asleep when he really wanted to be cuddled/held."

    Same! And as an enthusiast it made me so upset to hear that! I can only imagine how disturbing that would be, as one who takes their role as a Pro seriously, to hear.
    😤😠😡🤬

    I suppose like most things in life it comes down to honest conversation to establish expectations and voice what one would like from the session, be it pro or enthusiast.

    Yeeees!!!! 👏👏👏 Exactly!

  • cuddleversedcuddleversed

    @SuperSnuggler2 you’re welcome and I think you hit it right on the head when you say that an honest conversation and establishing expectations will lead to a good time for everybody and it should always be like that. I know that when I schedule a session with a pro I make sure I let her know what I like and how I want my session to be and except for one time that a got a cold fish for a cuddle partner all my sessions have been excellent and invigorating.
    Keep up the good work and I happy cuddles!

  • [Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)
    edited February 2021

    Same! And as an enthusiast it made me so upset to hear that! I can only imagine how disturbing that would be, as one who takes their role as a Pro seriously, to hear.
    😤😠😡🤬

    EXACTLY @quixotic_life! I didn't spell it out but I take my pro cuddling seriously and when one pro does something crappy, it reflects on us all. In fact, the person who cuddled with her also cuddled with me and almost didn't because he'd had such a bad experience. But I told him I would refund his money if he wasn't happy so he booked two hours and then extended it to four. :) I made sure I gave him the best cuddle of his life. lol

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)

    The problem with the giving/receiving dichotomy is that it's a dichotomy: if you're giving you're not receiving, and if you're receiving you're not giving.

    Consider a situation in which one person selfishly loves being the active cuddler—stroking, petting, suggesting new positions, bringing in tea, or whatever else they want—while the other selfishly enjoys being passive, allowing themselves to be petted and stroked and moved about from one position to another, happily consuming tea or whatever else is offered.

    When these two cuddle together, neither person is giving. Both are receiving.

    ...And yet, in a way, both are giving.

    But not really, because if you put two people who selfishly love being the active cuddler in the same cuddle, say, you get a lot of flailing and (typically) dissatisfaction; there's no real giving there.

    The trick to a good cuddle is to find buddies whose selfishnesses complement one another.

    What do you want? What does your buddy want? Hiring a pro is meant to make that easier: the money makes up for the pro possibly not getting what they want out of the cuddle itself because they're focused on you and what you want.

    Do you want to cuddle a passive partner? Then even if being active is what they enjoy most, they'll be passive for you (and they won't say anything negative about you insisting on being a "giver"). In the mood to be actively cuddled? Then even if they'd rather not, they'll be active for you. Enjoy a good flail, or a quiet lie-down in which neither of you does anything but exist in proximity to the other? They'll do that, too!

    And so on.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @DarrenWalker I totally agree with you. Dividing things into giving vs. receiving is like most dichotomies—it is oversimplified OR as is the case here, overthinking the simplest of things. Never have I had an enthusiast or a pro confess or ask which box they should be in or I should be in. Problems and issues come up in conversations and you pivot from there.

  • littermatelittermate

    I hear what you're saying when you want to offer your birdseed and feeling like someone doesn't know how to land on your feeder (my analogy, tell me if it fits).

    A few thoughts from littermate-world:

    This is not necessarily in the cuddle context, but at some point I noticed how much I loved loving more than I was interested in "being loved." How good it feels. How much I get out of the love that flows through me that seems to love me on the way out. (Not that I can't or don't love to receive - send me chocolate, love notes, hug me, massage me, yes please, thank you.)

    Now maybe men's conditioning has left lots of fellows unable to be in a receptive mode to be pet instead of doing the petting, but also maybe some of them have discovered what I did and just love being able to express their hearts like that. Or both.

    Or something else.

    One of my snugglers really really really liked being the big guy that snuggled me, and I really really really liked being the littler enveloped one. It was awesome! If I were getting paid for that, wow.

  • [Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)

    @littermate always appreciate your thoughtful perspective. Not sure about that bird/feeder/seed analogy though. ;) lol

  • [Deleted User]Warmnsafe (deleted user)

    Interesting! The (true) takers I think, are always those who are on the make, always out to see what resource is out there, and how they can gather in some for themselves.

    Whereas the (true) givers reach out to suffering humanity near and far and offer something of themselves...with no expectation of much in return. Curiously enough, when two such givers meet up, it can be a truly fantastic experience, a true win-win situation!

    In between I suppose lies most of us, even the heroic nurse must make his/her vocation their profession, as there is always the rent or mortgage to be paid and food to be put on the table.

  • [Deleted User]tjalex (deleted user)

    I probably shouldn't write because I'm in a bad place right now. Got stood up (again!) this Friday. I swear, there isn't a person within 150 miles of me that is sincere about any of this. I'm pretty close to quitting. I'm finding the entire situation pointless.

    That being said...

    The whole idea between give and take, provide and receive, purchase and sell probably varies from person to person. It all depends on the internal motivations of those participating. So what is their motivation? The first one is obvious - money. I'm not making a judgment on cuddle pros, but an honest observation. If you weren't allowed to charge, would you still do it? If so, would you do it as much? Be more selective? Don't get me wrong. I imagine those who post on here probably give of themselves and are not just "punching the clock". However, I think there are too many "pros" that don't see much past the dollar . There are several that I've reached out to in the most polite way possible...never to hear from them or suddenly "ghost" me. To those who are true professional cuddlers, I don't doubt your sincerity on some level. But just be honest with yourself and ask this question: would I cuddle with this person for free?

    That's not to say that those who cuddle for "free" actually have a totally giving heart as well. I fold myself into this group also. Are you really on this site to provide touch and comfort to those who need it without a single thought of your needs or desires? There's nothing wrong with that, just be honest with yourself. I want my partner to be comfortable and enjoy our time together, but I also have wants and needs that I hope will be fulfilled for at least an hour or two. A successful session is probably more of a symbiotic relationship. Some are more selfish, some are more passive. Some require a more active session, some just want to exist in the company of someone else.

    I may be wrong, but I believe the people who truly give totally without expectation of reward of any stripe are those who are in a deep relationship. I have experienced this...given attention to someone else without expectation. Not often, but there were times where the night was hers totally and I only gave her attention, affection and pampering. No expectation of anything from her...no touch, no return massage and no sex. If she wanted to touch me, it was from her need or desire, not mine. If you are able to give this to another person on this website without receiving anything in return, you are truly special. Could it be possible? Sure. But for most of us, this exchange is transactional at some level. I'll say again, it's not bad thing...but for the vast majority, the truth.

    I know this post will probably sound cynical to most...perhaps I am being a little cynical tonight. I'm not accusing anyone of having bad intentions (unless some of you do have bad intentions...I had a lady ask me if this was like Sugar Daddys!). None of us is perfect...we just need to be kind and caring to those who need it and able to receive the affections of those willing to give it.

  • [Deleted User]SuperSnuggler2 (deleted user)

    @tjalex wow. All I can say right now is I understand. I do have some specific comments and, if you are ok for me to do so, I’ll PM a you privately tomorrow.

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)
    edited February 2021

    @tjalex: I'm one of those cold, cynical people who, quite frankly, thinks everything's transactional. So take this with a grain of salt, but—

    I believe the people who truly give totally without expectation of reward of any stripe are those who are in a deep relationship. I have experienced this...given attention to someone else without expectation.

    From my perspective: no. No, you didn't. You knew the pair of you were in the kind of relationship where you'd be paid back at some point, in some way... didn't you? Furthermore, being in that kind of relationship probably meant you got pleasure from giving it. Right? It made you happy to see her enjoying herself?

    And I'm going to guess that you expected to receive that pleasure from her. I mean, you didn't expect her to show no signs of enjoyment, did you? You expected her to give you the pleasure of seeing her pleasure.

    Without the expectation of these rewards, would you have been so giving?

    I'm most comfortable with people who're honest about what they want from me and what they have to offer. It might seem cold and calculating, making sure everyone gets what they actually want this way, but I dunno... it works for me.

  • [Deleted User]tjalex (deleted user)

    @DarrenWalker , You do have a point. I suppose I was referring to the moment or event not being transactional in and of itself. I guess looking at the larger picture hopefully if you have a successful relationship, you will end up doing for others for no other reason than to see the reaction...to make them happy. I've always thought that to give another woman some type of pleasure has it's own rewards. To have a positive reaction to what you do for them is a little like having someone cheer for you. It makes you feel good when someone enjoys and/or appreciates you and the things you do. It is transactional in a sense, but in the noblest of intentions.

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)

    @tjalex: You've touched on something there. So many people talk as though a thing being transactional automatically makes it ignoble—like "this for that" could never possibly involve warm, pleasant emotions!

    You give someone a gift and receive their reaction; of course you hope what you receive will be worth what you spent.

    "You will end up doing for others for no other reason than to see the reaction," sure, but the reaction you want is a very specific one: "to make them happy." You want to see their happiness—that's what you want from them, what you hope to receive in return.

    Everything is transactional, I'd say. That doesn't make it bad.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited February 2021

    @tjalex The word you are looking for for people who give without an agenda or expectations of a reward is altruism. And altruism is a questionable and shifty notion. Some say Mother Teresa was altruistic, but she probably felt pretty good when a baby that was crying from starvation was fed by her efforts. While she would never say while she was alive, most likely her feelings of satisfaction in the service of others was her reward system. So altruism to me does not exist in humans because emotions and body chemicals poison the well—humans are needy and wanting—and deep inside everyone, be it consciously or subconsciously, we all have a reward system.

  • UKGuyUKGuy

    Type "Give to Get" into the YouTube search box and you'll see listed dozens of songs, most of which are baloney in my opnion. I've never found giving encourages getting, it usually promotes more giving.

  • parkwayvisualparkwayvisual

    I'm the type of person that can only receive if given to.

  • littermatelittermate

    @SuperSnuggler2 Backatcha, and lol. <3

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