A fascinating perspective on touch and consent from the NY Times magazine

NYCLatnGuyNYCLatnGuy
in General

I found this article eye-opening. It is striking to me just how many of our social norms condition us to consent to ”benign” touch we would not otherwise choose to experience, but I wonder if this year of isolation can be an opportunity for many of us to reset how we interact with those around us and allow them to interact with us….

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/magazine/consent.html

I would love to hear people’s thoughts and experiences as they are willing to share.

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Comments

  • [Deleted User]squeakytoy (deleted user)

    @NYCLatnGuy Woah!! Thank you for sharing this. It's a heavy read but holy crap, it's relatable. I've definitely felt grateful to have such a long break from regular, unwanted touch coming from strangers, acquaintances, coworkers, etc.

    I really like the idea of using the break as an opportunity to reset these types of interactions.

  • UCpaaHVg6u0UCpaaHVg6u0

    I would like to hear more women here weigh in on this. It opened my eyes to the fact that I'm completely alien to how women feel about touch, although I'm encouraged to assess myself and conclude that I'm not nearly as rapey as the average guy, apparently. I liked this woman's writing style because she expressed herself so well. "Relatable" is the perfect word to describe it.

  • UKGuyUKGuy

    Touch and women are two things that have never come together for me. I'm pretty sure , in retrospect, the women I've known would have liked me to touch them more, not less. So I find it hard to identify with that article.

  • yosweetiepieyosweetiepie

    Thanks for sharing @NYCLatnGuy. It’s certainly a perspective, but I personally wouldn’t go so far as to call it fascinating. In fact, my opinion is that the theme was remarkably predictable so as to be slightly mundane at this point.

  • UCpaaHVg6u0UCpaaHVg6u0

    @yosweetiepie So, you felt that an autobiographical piece about a woman who worked as a Domme and struggled with boundaries about consenting to unwanted touch, was "predictable"?

  • yosweetiepieyosweetiepie

    @UCpaaHVg6u0 I said, in my opinion, the “theme” was predictable, yes.

  • sweetcompanion5sweetcompanion5
    edited April 2021

    @NYCLatnGuy thank you. Excellent and very enlightening.

    Wondering about how wise it would be to educate children with this kind of empowerment of consent? As a grandfather I would want all of my grandchildren to be taught about this kind of consent. Now I have work to do. I see consent empowerment would be wise to teach in other areas - not just limited to touch.

    I remember more than once as a child/adolescent male that I experienced uninvited and unwanted sensual touch. I also experienced uninvited and unwanted platonic touch numerous times as a child/adolescent. Come here give me a hug. And the parent says, "go on give them a hug." I believe I haven't thought through well how I have done the same and need to make some changes.

    "Skin hunger" is quite the term in cuddle articles and discussions. I haven't searched the discussion forum to see if there has been a thorough exchange about the dynamics of skin hunger along with consent. I have experienced cuddle partners that seem very comfortable in their skin and are very generous in giving and receiving touch - always with requested consent and communicated boundaries. I will have to search the forum.

    @UCpaaHVg6u0 your response to @yosweetiepie was exactly my thoughts. Mundane? So, lacking interest or excitement; dull. I imagine that the response in this thread will let us know if it is predictably mundane. I felt it was quite interesting and not at all dull.

  • yosweetiepieyosweetiepie

    @sweetcompanion5 I just have a different opinion than you. This article plays very well to those that read The NY Times Magazine. I can surely see how they would find her account fascinating.

  • sweetcompanion5sweetcompanion5

    @yosweetiepie - got it. I do appreciate you sharing your opinion. I need to hear a variety of opinions. Thank you for your further perspective. I do hope others give theirs as well.

  • yosweetiepieyosweetiepie

    @sweetcompanion5 Thank you for being kind to me. I think it’s really important to expose ourselves to a variety of perspectives. I actually love listening to perspectives that I don’t agree with and I especially love changing my own opinion!

  • sweetcompanion5sweetcompanion5

    @yosweetiepie - You are welcome.

  • UCpaaHVg6u0UCpaaHVg6u0

    NYT magazine might cater to a left of center crowd but there's plenty of diversity of opinion among it's millions of readers. Cuddling fits nicely with the idea that we've descended from a patriarchal system that has been in decline, and acknowledging vulnerability is not something to be ashamed of.

  • yosweetiepieyosweetiepie

    @UCpaaHVg6u0 You are certainly correct that there is a wide range of viewpoints among the readership of The NY Times Magazine. This is not the case among the writers or editors of this publication. But that is ok! We all can benefit from listening to each other and their perspective. My issue stems from what I believe to be a reflexive condemnation of any dissenting opinions on a piece like this. For example, I stated that I felt the the theme of this article was predictable so as to be slightly mundane. Do you notice that no one asked me why? I think you had a visceral reaction as evidenced by your comment. I believe you felt uncomfortable that I would make this comment about an article written by a woman that has clearly suffered. In essence, I feel that the implication was that there shall be no dissenting opinions, and all such opinions shall be dismissed as misogynistic. Let me clarify, misogyny is awful of course. I firmly believe anyone that hurt her should be in jail. I assume I have to say this to clarify.

    I’m not sure I follow the connection between cuddling and the descent from a patriarchal system. Could you explain that in a little more detail?

  • UCpaaHVg6u0UCpaaHVg6u0
    edited April 2021

    @yosweetiepie Yes, I think my comment needs explanation. In the article, Melissa Febos writes, " “discussing consent is widely seen as awkward and likely to kill the mood.” As if interrupting a man whose spontaneous desire is prompting him to remove your clothes or penetrate you is not awkward for women who have spent their entire lives being socialized not to upset or disappoint people."
    My interpretation is that she is referring to the old patriarchal values that women are chattel and must submit to the Master sexually, which reflects actual law in various parts of Europe during the Medieval period. Cuddling is dependent upon mutual consent. The entire premise of the article points towards the conclusion that women have been trained to submit to unwanted touch.

    I want to add that there is something reminiscent of cats when I read her describing her ambivalence about touch. I love cats but anybody knows that petting a cat can sometimes be a challenge. There are many cats who seek human touch but soon become alarmed that they are becoming vulnerable, and one risks getting scratched beyond a certain point in time when this happens.

  • yosweetiepieyosweetiepie
    edited April 2021

    @UCpaaHVg6u0 That’s an interesting take! I appreciate the perspective. I agree that unwanted touch is a problem. I also think it’s a good thing, and a testament to the strength of our western culture that women are celebrated for writing articles like this (in a globally respected publication) to bring attention to such concerns.

  • SideonSideon
    edited April 2021

    Let's stick to the merits of the article and the points that are raised. Whether you like the article or not is moot - and not applicable. As in all other threads... if you're not interested, move on.

  • SideonSideon

    The heart of the article, to me, was here with these words:

    To describe the way I felt as a “maybe” would be generous, but I did not consider Rule 5 (If you’re a maybe, say no). I did not feel “encouraged to change my mind.” That is, whatever the culture of the cuddle party, the culture inside of me presented its own dictates. It was not the warmly lit loft of my late 30s. It was a twilit space in which my thoughts moved like half-remembered dreams. It was a hallway with a closed door at the end. In it, I was half stranger.

    There are two embedded and paired challenges for every cuddle consent: the formal Terms of Service/expectations/agreed-upon-parameters of a platonic cuddle session, and our own filter/experience/history. Not only can there be a huge chasm and gap in the various ways we communicate, verbally and non-verbally to others, but we can do the same incongruent actions (and inactions) ourselves. Someone saying they're "fine", but their body is rigid or their tone of voice is distant? Instant clue. This was not easy for me to read this author's self-awareness and exploration, but I think it's an important story that needed to be voiced and shared. That the narrator is a former domme only underscores the importance, concept, and application of consent. It's a much needed discussion.

  • Comfy_ArmsComfy_Arms
    edited April 2021

    I didn't like her style of writing. It seemed overly laboured to impress the reader with her literary eloquence, whereas I prefer a more blunt style.
    Her approach to the subject also suggests that she sees it only from her own perspective, such that only women have issues with unwanted touch and only men are offenders in unwanted touching.
    This is clearly not true. In my own church I witnessed a young girl of about 9 years old being repeatedly grabbed for a hug by what I assume was her grandmother. The girl was clearly "over it", but the grandma kept it up, grabbing her for another forced hug every minute or two. The grandma was doing it to feed her own need for hugs and not because the child was distressed. I wonder what would have happened if that was a grandpa repeatedly grabbing his 9 year old granddaughter to satisfy his own desire for hugs.
    And there was also an incident in my own marriage years ago. My wife was in the habit of rejecting my advances to make love, not caring how unloved that made me feel, while insisting that I spoon her ever night so she could feel secure and loved. (And crying or sulking if I should refuse to spoon her.)
    But I came home from work one day to find her oddly excited and insistent about having sex with me right there and then. Puzzled about this, I decided to act disinterested so she could experience what rejection of a sexual advance feels like, but despite my clear indications of "I'm not in the mood" she kept at it, touching me and removing my clothes etc, until I finally put my foot down firmly, at which point she began to pout. If the roles had been reversed I would been sexually harassing her, but apparently a horny woman is entitled to harass others to get what she wants.

  • UCpaaHVg6u0UCpaaHVg6u0

    Ick!

  • Comfy_ArmsComfy_Arms

    @UCpaaHVg6u0, How is you 3 letter comment supposed to add to this discussion? Is it a derisive reply to my previous comment? Sure, why not? Getting shat on for having an opinion seems to be my purpose in life.

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)
    edited April 2021

    @UCpaaHVg6u0: I agree, that is some icky behavior @Comfy_Arms's wife was engaging in there. It's almost as though people raised to disregard their own physical boundaries have trouble figuring out how to respect other people's boundaries.

    It might also have something to do with the fact that our culture teaches that female touch is always desirable, while male touch isn't. That lie can't help.

    Edit:
    Consent is important for everyone, and I think pretty much all of us have trouble with it in our own ways.

    Protecting your boundaries feels selfish. Standing up for yourself feels mean. "Are they really asking for so much?" we find ourselves wondering. "I'm supposed to enjoy this," we find ourselves thinking. "Is it really such a big deal?" we rationalize, trampling over our own primary reactions.

    And we give in.

  • [Deleted User]squeakytoy (deleted user)
    edited April 2021

    @UCpaaHVg6u0 Agreed.

    @Comfy_Arms I'll give you a longer reply if that's what you were looking for.

    First: I'm confused about the idea that a woman shouldn't be able to talk about women's issues without somehow shoehorning in men's issues as well. When I see an article about breast cancer, I don't automatically assume it will talk about prostrate cancer too (#allcancersmatter?). I would consider it disingenuous for the author to talk about issues she isn't familiar with on behalf of other people, especially when those other people could write their own articles about the things that matter to them.

    Second: I'm not sure how your story about your (ex?) wife is relevant to this topic. From what you said, she was touching you and removing your clothes, and when you firmly rejected her advances, she stopped, which is exactly what she should have done. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not exactly picturing a situation where you were hesitant to say no to her because you were frightened that she would beat you up, or physically overpower you and have sex with you anyway. Lots of people pout and act resentful when they don't get what they want, and that can come in many forms (including, but not limited to, rejecting somebody's sexual advances simply because they rejected yours in the past, to teach them a lesson).

    The problem the author is referring to is that men often don't stop, and this behavior isn't limited to our husbands/boyfriends (or hell, even to men we know). Men, specifically, touch us and grope us in public all the damn time. We're not trying to say "women never do this" - we're saying that so many men do this to so many women that it's a freakin' epidemic, and we're choosing to focus on that so we can try to put a stop to it. If you've been around the forums a while, you may have noticed that pretty much every woman who actively posts here has shared stories about receiving unwanted sexual contact from men. I haven't seen anyone suggest that horny women are entitled to harass others to get what they want - nobody should do this.

    My wife was in the habit of rejecting my advances to make love, not caring how unloved that made me feel, while insisting that I spoon her ever night so she could feel secure and loved. (And crying or sulking if I should refuse to spoon her.)

    I wanted to ask for clarification on this. Most people on this site are here to cuddle for the sake of cuddling, as an enjoyable experience for both parties. Were you implying that your (ex?) wife should have been willing to have sex with you because you were willing to spoon her? I hope not.

    Anyway, is that a better answer? It's more than 3 letters :mrgreen:

  • [Deleted User]squeakytoy (deleted user)
    edited April 2021

    I agree, that is some icky behavior @Comfy_Arms's wife was engaging in there. It's almost as though people raised to disregard their own physical boundaries have trouble figuring out how to respect other people's boundaries.

    @DarrenWalker Huh! This is actually an interesting point. It makes me think of a woman I dated last year who had only ever dated men before me.

    She was so used to male partners "losing control of themselves" with her, disregarding her boundaries and comfort, and hurting her, that she initially thought I wasn't attracted to her since I didn't do those things. I had to set down a lot of explicit boundaries at first to get her to be less rough with me (which wasn't a big deal - we were evenly matched so I knew could shove her off at any time if I needed to). A few weeks into dating, she had the epiphany that for most of her life, she'd been making excuses for flat-out, unambiguous sexual assault and rape from male partners. It was wild.

    I agree on your other points too. It grinds my gears whenever I see a news story about a female teacher getting sexual favors from a male student, and tons of guys jump in to say shit like, "Oh he's so lucky, hurr hurr, I would have liked the attention when I was a kid/teen." :expressionless: Like... great job. Way to discourage men from talking about their experiences with this stuff.

  • pmvinespmvines

    You didn't have sex with your ex to show her how it feels to feel rejected . That is apples to oranges to the premise of the article. Bringing that up just seems like a way of being dismissive . I dont doubt that you and your ex had issues that left you feeling a certain way. Just isn't an appropriate comparison .

  • UCpaaHVg6u0UCpaaHVg6u0

    @Comfy_Arms Sorry. I was just sparing you excessive eloquence. I hope that I was blunt enough.

  • [Deleted User]squeakytoy (deleted user)

    @UCpaaHVg6u0

  • Comfy_ArmsComfy_Arms

    @squeakytoy Thanks for replying. The way I read her article, it seemed to suggest that, to her, all men are gropers and unwelcome touchers. I don't think all unsolicited touch is bad or originates from sleazy motives. Why would shaking that dude's hand at the cuddle party be bad? It's a common cultural way of acknowledging someone. A shoulder squeeze at work could mean "you're doing a great job" or "thanks for going the extra mile" or "I'm glad I've got your help with this" or some similar gesture of appreciation.
    That she seems to be offended by even minute and benign touch makes her come across as precious. If you live in society people will interact with you, and often that includes some degree of touch. If that's odious to someone, perhaps living in the middle of nowhere is a better option for them.

    The story about my ex wife is relevant because it involves touch and disregarding clear indications that no touch was wanted at that time. Sure she stopped, eventually, but she first ignored numerous "no" messages from me. Let's contrast that with another incident with her before we were married and she was dating one of my friends. We were at a work function and I'd just had one dance with her. When the song ended I asked "come on, let's dance this next song too. She said no. Hoping to change her mind, I repeated my request. (We were still holding hands from dancing the previous song, 1950s rock n roll) And her response? She immediately kneed me in the balls. No warning or anything.
    It's these double standards that bug me, as well as the intimation that men are just filthy gropers all the time. It's not true. I rarely touch women. I don't even go in for a hug unless they do it first, for fear that a hug wouldn't be welcome, and especially for fear that she wouldn't be polite in declining but would make some drama out of it.

    Regarding your last question, yes I do think that my wife should have been willing to have sex with me. I was doing my bit to meet her needs, and in turn it's her duty to meet her husband's needs. Meeting each other's sexual needs is part and parcel of the marriage covenant, to the exclusion of everyone outside of the marriage relationship. I'm not saying she should have sex with me every time after we spoon. But she shouldn't be selfish about getting her needs met every night, while leaving her marriage partner out in the cold feeling unloved and rejected for weeks at a time.

  • Comfy_ArmsComfy_Arms

    @DarrenWalker
    "It might also have something to do with the fact that our culture teaches that female touch is always desirable, while male touch isn't. That lie can't help."

    I think that is a huge part of it. And there are other similar cultural teachings that stereotype men and women:
    () Women are trustworthy, while men are not trustworthy.
    () Men are just interested in sex, women have little interest in sex.
    While there may be some degree of truth to these, they're not universally true.

    There's a scene from a movie that would be interesting to see how it would work out with the roles reversed. In the movie "Shopgirl" this guy has been flirting with this woman over numerous occasions, letting her know he's interested in her. On one particular occasion he invites her back to his place and shows her around his luxury home. He's about to show her the bedrooms when he is distracted, leaving her unattended for a while. (can't remember, but either the phone rings or he had to go to the toilet) When he returns he finds her lying naked on his bed, waiting for him. He comes over and begins caressing her bare back.
    If the gender roles were reversed and this happened at her place, how would the woman react to finding the guy naked on her bed?
    I can't help but think that she would flip out at his brazen presumptuousness, and push him out the door naked, and throw his clothes out after him. Would love to hear a female perspective on this.

    Incidentally, in the above movie scenario, the guy begins caressing her but doesn't ask for her consent. Some people would say you should always ask for consent. But surely consent is implied when she voluntarily laid herself naked on his bed?
    Asking for consent even when both parties are freely and willingly walking the path toward sensual touch seems unnecessary, awkward, and mood-killing.
    Obviously a touch that is brazenly violating a boundary is wrong, but touches that start at socially acceptable levels and gradually progress to more intimate touch at a pace acceptable to the recipient should be ok. If a boundary is reached, the recipient can and should communicate this and it should be respected.
    One dating coach whose podcasts I used to listen to said that it is important to get past the touch barrier immediately after meeting a woman. (eg, shake her hand, or hug her, or high-five her, etc.) If you don't, the longer you wait the more awkward it will be to begin touching her later.

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)
    edited April 2021

    @Comfy_Arms: Huh. I didn't see that in the article at all. She didn't say "all men." She didn't say "no women." I had the impression she was focusing on her interactions with men because those were where she felt most pressured—not because all men are gropers and unwelcome touchers.

    Now, as an autistic, I've got feelings about unsolicited touch. Frankly, it can straight-up hurt. Socially acceptable, sure. Harmless, no!

    I really like the idea that you shouldn't touch people without asking. People who advocate for this idea are, indeed, remarkably precious to me. I'd like there to be more of them in the world.

    The concept of consent is taught extremely badly in movies. Fiction absolutely affects reality; we could do with some better models! With that in mind, here's a good model for consent in a relationship: when I intend a nice thing I'm doing for @DarkLordChungus to indebt him to me such that it's his duty to pay me back for it in a specific way, I make that clear before I do the thing.

    I don't just assume, "Hey, you're my friend, I'm your friend, I've done this nice thing for you so now you're required to do what I want. You agreed to this when you agreed to be my friend!" No.

    I ask.

  • Comfy_ArmsComfy_Arms

    In marriage, that's implicit, imho.

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