@DarrenWalker
Whenever you decide to stuff me into your marriage sack I'll come to expect you to also help me get on a wetsuit, and to then fill the wetsuit with cooked spaghetti noodles, at least four times a week. Until I die. Thank you, future husband.
@Comfy_Arms: Implicit, is it? I kinda figure something as important as "you must sex me up on demand (terms and conditions may apply)" ought to be stated explicitly. Not just implied.
@DarkLordChungus: Those are very clear conditions. I'll be sure to bear them in mind if I ever decide I want us to wed.
Marriage is such a good, wholesome arrangement that I expect you'll not want to wait long to make me your wife.
I look forward to the feeling of those spaghetti noodles all over me, like starchy snakes.
@DarkLordChungus: You're so weird, bro.
I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. What an image.
@pmvines It was relevant to the article. An article where a woman complains about how men touch her without consent. Women don't do this, but with men it's virtually an epidemic.
So I gave a personal example of a woman ignoring a man's multiple comments of "no not interested in you touching me". It's not the only instance I've personally experienced, but why bother to share my opinion when already several people have been disrespectful towards me for sharing my opinion on the topic.
@DarrenWalker Well you can "kinda figure" whatever you like, but the expectations of marriage have long been understood by society.
Clearly, you're confusing dominating the mind and body of a subordinate with treating a partner as an equal.
@Comfy_Arms: Oh. Did your wife get the memo?
Communication is good.
Incidentally: just because the article-writer didn't mention any women who touched her without her consent... well, that doesn't mean she's saying it never happens. It's not the focus of this particular article. That's all. Not mentioning a thing is not at all the same as saying the thing doesn't exist.
...And yeah, so far as I know, more women are physically harmed by entitled, touchy men than vice versa. That does appear to be the reality.
@Comfy_Arms If someone gives you a coin and tells you it's fairly weighted, you would expect that if you flip it repeatedly, then roughly 50% of the time it would turn up heads, and roughly 50% of the time it would turn up tails. If you flipped it repeatedly and 80% of the time it turned up heads, what would that tell you about the coin?
The statistics I've seen over the years about women who have experienced sexual assault (self-reported) in any form are usually somewhere between 20% and 30% of women. If that were the case, I would expect that for the hundreds of women I've talked to about sexual assault, at most about 20% or 30% of them would have a story about being sexually assaulted (because some might not share, right? it's a pretty personal topic). But, to date, out of the total number of women I've talked to about about sexual assault, the percentage who shared personal stories with me about being assaulted themselves is 100%. And it's not just me. The other women I've talked to have found the same thing is true for them. I'm not sure how I can drive it home to you more than that, man. It is a very serious problem, and yes, it's almost exclusively men who do this to us.
The author is talking about the lived reality of a sweeping majority of women. It's unbalanced, and it's unfair, but it's the way things are. I want you to realize that when we talk about this, we talk about our own personal, regular experiences with it. When you talk about it, you refer to a mix of examples from life and fiction that you've mostly been a witness to (a grandma hugging a child who didn't want to be hugged, something you saw in a movie, etc). You've shared one story about a woman who was your wife who didn't take no for an answer at first... and then she did. Even if you shared ten similar stories, it's a little different than receiving so much unwanted touch (often sexual) from coworkers, acquaintances, and even complete strangers throughout your life that you've pretty much normalized it.
Regarding what you said about it being your wife's duty to have sex with you - no, I don't think that's how most people see marriage this way these days, at least in progressive parts of the world. Cuddles and sex are supposed to be mutually enjoyable, not things you give and take from each other and "owe" each other. If you want an entity that fulfills your sexual needs on demand, what you need is a fleshlight, not a wife. It brings the question to mind... what are you looking for on this site? It sounds like you found cuddling your wife such a chore that you couldn't enjoy it for just the sake of cuddling - it was something you did only because you thought it increased your chances of getting obligatory sex. How do you view cuddling now?
That she seems to be offended by even minute and benign touch makes her come across as precious. If you live in society people will interact with you, and often that includes some degree of touch. If that's odious to someone, perhaps living in the middle of nowhere is a better option for them.
You realize we're not talking about handshakes, right? There's a ton of touch that women are used to receiving regularly from men, that men usually don't receive (probably because men realize that if they touched other men this way, they'd get punched out). There's no reason for men to place their hands on our lower backs when they're walking past us, for example. Or grabbing and holding onto us just because they have something to say that they want us to hear.
Most of the time, even the seemingly innocuous stuff turns out to be a precursor to boundary pushing. I can't count how many times a guy who repeatedly squeezed my shoulder or gave me excessive hugs eventually transformed those things into "accidental" boob grazes, and sometimes even "joking" boob squeezes (or worse) when they thought they could get away with it. When a guy regularly pats you on the back or claps you on the shoulder, how often has it turned out they were just testing your boundaries to see whether they could grab your junk one day and try to play it off as a joke? Men don't have to resort to living entirely outside of society to avoid this shit. Why should women have to?
Oh, by the way, take that dating coach's advice and chuck it in file 13. The whole "breaking the touch barrier as soon as you meet a woman" crap only adds to the current problem.
Edited for clarity
@DarrenWalker @DarkLordChungus You guys are cracking me up today
What a perfectly wholesome pastafarian marriage.
Wow. So much to digest here.
Thank you @Sideon for your thoughts about the article. I do think though that if someone didn't like it and if they share why it can "possibly" be helpful or give us some possible insight into the person responding.
I find it quite informative to hear how different people respond to touch and consent especially since this is a community of cuddlers.
Obviously, there is a lot of trauma related to touch or lack thereof and shows the need for healthy touch.
@Comfy_Arms you wrote: "One dating coach whose podcasts I used to listen to said that it is important to get past the touch barrier immediately after meeting a woman. (eg, shake her hand, or hug her, or high-five her, etc.) If you don't, the longer you wait the more awkward it will be to begin touching her later."
NO. This advice is toxic. It implies that the man is entitled to touch the woman. Beginning as soon as possible is a tactic that pushes a woman's "Be Nice" button, installed by our socialization. Only a woman who has completely thrown off that conditioning (rare) will call out that behavior and assert herself right off the bat. Commonly she will be labeled a Bitch for doing so. This touch her as soon as possible tactic is also a way of keeping her off balance and the man in control of the situation.
You also wrote: "the expectations of marriage have long been understood by society."
I recently had a conversation about marriage and how there doesn't seem to be as many long-term marriages anymore with one of my younger cuddle friends. I pointed out that one reason is that women CAN leave in this day and age. Many of us no longer have to stay with abusive partners for financial reasons. It's way past time to revisit and redefine the expectations of marriage.
Your pain is very evident to me. Divorce is an awful thing to go through. I hope you find peace. Counseling has helped me tremendously and led to a whole new life full of healthy, balanced, mutually giving relationships. Clinging to an insistence on how right he was has led my starter husband, my high school sweetheart, to replace me with a woman 13 years younger than us in less than 6 months. He's slowly losing his relationships with all of our children because they have things they need to say to him that he cannot handle.
I hope you make better choices ❤
@DarkLordChungus @DarrenWalker @pmvines and anyone else who regularly chimes in with smartass comments on these forums - you are my people! You give me joy and life and I freaking love you all 😂
@Cuddle_RN Hear hear! Frankly, it should feel awkward to just start touching someone you barely know, without any semblance of consent from them. That's your conscience talking.
@Comfy_Arms I’m assuming the dating coach on this mentioned podcast is a women . Is that correct ?
When and if the time is right to touch someone who you haven't established boundaries and connection with yet , they will let you know through both verbal and non verbal cues and even then you should ask first. This goes for all genders
Speaking of touch I bet the last supper was a bit tense, with Jesus relating the bread to his skin and the wine to his blood. I bet no one touched the meatballs..
@squeakytoy "The statistics I've seen over the years about women who have experienced sexual assault (self-reported) in any form are usually somewhere between 20% and 30% of women."
Why are we talking about sexual assault now? The article was about unwanted touch, and consent issues. Here, let me paste the article title for you:
"I Spent My Life Consenting to Touch I Didn’t Want. "
And the sub-title immediately below it:
"A year of isolation made me consider all the casual, unwanted touch women endure — and why it’s so hard to refuse it."
So the article is about touch, not sexual assault. The author even writes: "Likewise, I have never been sexually assaulted."
You said "You've shared one story about a woman who was your wife who didn't take no for an answer at first... and then she did." But here you refuse to see how this is the same as what men do to women: they take liberties and don't take no for an answer at first. Or are you saying that every woman who's had a man take one liberty has had that situation escalate to sexual assault / rape every time because he never took no for an answer?
"Cuddles and sex are supposed to be mutually enjoyable, not things you give and take from each other and "owe" each other." Yet my wife felt I owed cuddles / spooning to her and would pout if I didn't give that to her.
"If you want an entity that fulfills your sexual needs on demand, what you need is a fleshlight, not a wife." I abhor this statement about as much as the statement women sometimes make to men that they should just go to a prostitute instead of complaining that women won't date them. It is offensive. I want a relationship with a person, not with a thing. And I want a mutual relationship, not a business transaction.
"It sounds like you found cuddling your wife such a chore that you couldn't enjoy it for just the sake of cuddling - it was something you did only because you thought it increased your chances of getting obligatory sex." Totally wrong. I did enjoy cuddling and spooning her, and still miss it to this day. But back then it became more and more one-sided, as regular intercourse tapered right off, and when it did happen it was clear that that was a chore to her, or she'd lay on the bed with a "go on then if you must" attitude. How very arousing! In that situation I began to resent that my marriage partner got her emotional needs met through cuddling and spooning, while I was left out in the cold. It's not easy to cuddle one's beautiful wife and not become aroused by that, especially when it has been a while since we made love.
"How do you view cuddling now?" Miss it. I have intense bouts of "skin hunger" (a term from the article) at various times, causing me to be depressed as I am right now.
"You realize we're not talking about handshakes, right?" Maybe not you, but the article's author did talk about that. She included even benign touch among unwanted touch, which seems overly precious to me. As a man, I get unsolicited touch too, from both men and women. I just don't make an issue out of it unless it's inappropriate, and then I speak up.
"There's no reason for men to place their hands on our lower backs when they're walking past us." Actually there can be. I myself have been subject to this, and it's no big deal, especially in a crowded room where there are loads of witnesses to any potential wrongdoing. If you're in a crowded room and deep in conversation with someone, and someone else may want to squeeze past you but not disrupt your conversation, and a subtle way of doing this is to place their hand on your shoulder or back and gently push. This will "tell" you to step forward a little bit, while not disrupting your conversation.
"Most of the time, even the seemingly innocuous stuff turns out to be a precursor to boundary pushing." I hate having to apologize for being a man, being suspected of bad motives in pretty much any situation where a woman is present, having women cross the road to avoid me because... because what? Because I have a penis?! Or see them avert their eyes when passing me on the footpath because... again because why? All I want is to smile and have them smile back. A bit of niceness in my otherwise dreary day. Is this a frigging crime or something?!
And finally, with all this talk about asking consent, I gotta say I can't recall a single instance in my entire life where a woman asked for consent before reaching out and touching me. Not that I'm against touch, but there is something to be said for leading by example.
@Mmart While we're on the subject of respecting boundaries, your comment above regarding Jesus is completely inappropriate and offensive to religious people. Why do atheists and antitheists feel entitled to be so offensive to religious people? Go to certain Muslim countries and talk about Allah and Mohammed in offensive ways. I bet you wouldn't dare, because you know what they would soon do to you. I bet you'd be very respectful of their religious beliefs and figures.
@Comfy_Arms I bring up sexual assault because it's an important part of the big picture when we talk about unwanted touch women receive from men. We can't talk about any of this in a vacuum - it all fits together in one big shitty jigsaw puzzle. You'll notice that even though the author explicitly says she hasn't been sexually assaulted, she feels a lot of fear from unwanted touch from men, and a strong awareness that the men who are touching her could physically overwhelm her. This isn't paranoia. It's a very real threat, and most of us have experienced it.
Most of what you've written misses the points the author is making. Nobody is saying "women never give unwanted touch". Nobody is saying "every man gives unwanted touch without exception". Nobody is saying "men never experience unwanted touch". The author is simply saying that women experience unwanted touch constantly from men, and are socialized to just put up with it. And she's right. It's a big problem for many reasons, but one of the biggest reasons is that it makes it socially acceptable for predators to touch women without consent, and push boundaries. Which fosters a culture where a lot of women experience sexual assault. Does it make more sense why I brought that up now?
Another thing you can't leave out of this conversation is the huge physical differences between men and women. I've certainly gotten some unwanted touch from women. It's annoying, but it doesn't happen anywhere near as often as getting unwanted touch from men, and it's absolutely not the same as getting unwanted touch from men. I'm strong for a woman (thanks, physical labor of my youth) so I'm pretty confident that most women couldn't overpower me. But if a man grabs my wrist, it's like the difference in strength between an adult and a child - even a lot of scrawny dudes are way stronger than me. How many women have you met who you felt could overpower you?
I abhor this statement about as much as the statement women sometimes make to men that they should just go to a prostitute instead of complaining that women won't date them. It is offensive. I want a relationship with a person, not with a thing. And I want a mutual relationship, not a business transaction.
If you feel upset to be denied access to any part of a woman's body as if it were your right, whether that's because of marital duties or otherwise, then it does say something about how you see her, whether you're aware you have that mindset or not. My remark about the fleshlight is only as offensive as the way you speak about women.
I hate having to apologize for being a man, being suspected of bad motives in pretty much any situation where a woman is present, having women cross the road to avoid me because... because what? Because I have a penis?! Or see them avert their eyes when passing me on the footpath because... again because why? All I want is to smile and have them smile back. A bit of niceness in my otherwise dreary day. Is this a frigging crime or something?!
If you don't like it, tough. Women do these things because we need to keep ourselves safe, and we've learned through experience, and through sharing experiences with other women, that a lot of strange men aren't safe. You can blame women for looking out for their own safety, or you can help us solve the problems that make us need to be on the defensive. Also, female strangers don't owe you smiles. We don't exist to be a pleasing backdrop in your life.
(Phew. Imma cut back on my post length after this one - they've been getting a bit excessive.)
@Comfy_Arms: You ask why non-religious people "feel entitled to be so offensive to religious people?"
In return, I ask why religious people are so easily offended?
@Mmart's joke is not only funny, but harmless. No one is hurt by the idea that "this is my body; take and eat" is kind of uncomfortable if you think about it.
...Except people who're invested in nobody thinking about things, I guess.
Having grown up in a deeply religious environment, I understand the desire to torture and kill those who don't take your beliefs seriously enough, treating them with the profound respect you think they deserve. Of course, you would never do such a thing! But I understand wishing that you could, so that people (knowing they could be killed) would shut up and never do or say anything you didn't like. I saw that badly suppressed desire many times in my childhood.
Here's the difference between asking for consent before putting your hands on a person's body and asking for consent before saying something that touches their beliefs: bodies are a part of a person. Beliefs are not. They can be (and often are) replaced wholesale.
Edit: Well said as always, @squeakytoy! I really like reading your posts. Even (maybe especially) the longer ones. Though the short ones are fun, too.
@Comfy_Arms. If you look down you will see you dropped something. Looks like your sense of humor. Your commentary makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
@Mmart For what it's worth, I laughed
@DarrenWalker Well said.
Edit: And thank you, I didn't see your edit! I'm glad you enjoyed it
@DarrenWalker @squeakytoy
As usual your commentary is is appreciated.
@Mmart @DarrenWalker This mini-exchange is legitimately cracking me up, it's like the forum equivalent of all gathering into a little circle and all patting each other on the back
Seriously though, you guys are great.
@squeakytoy, @Mmart: It really is, isn't it? Heh. Oh well—it's not a bad way to start your day, anyhow. And squeakytoy always has excellent gifs!
@squeakytoy. I love that gif
@DarrenWalker @Mmart D'aaaaww! You're both too kind!
@squeakytoy
"If you feel upset to be denied access to any part of a woman's body as if it were your right,"
How can you possibly infer that from a statement about dating? You, just like DarrenWalker in his post below yours, are making unwarranted assumptions about me, setting me up as a strawman that you can then vilify and knock down. It's a dishonest debate tactic.
"My remark about the fleshlight is only as offensive as the way you speak about women." How have I spoken offensively about women? Quote me.
"Also, female strangers don't owe you smiles. We don't exist to be a pleasing backdrop in your life." I didn't say female strangers owe me smiles. Again you dishonestly twist my words so you have something to attack me for. I clearly said that I wanted to smile at women and have them smile back. Make the world a little bit nicer, right?
"We don't exist to be a pleasing backdrop in your life." What do you see as the purpose of your existence in society? You don't owe men anything. Do you owe women anything? Do you owe society anything? Is it just every man for himself and every woman for herself and to hell with everyone else? If someone is hurt or lonely, it's not your problem and you shouldn't have to do anything, not the slightest thing, to help that person? Is that really the sort of selfish, self-absorbed person you want to be, and is that the sort of loveless everyone-for-himself world you want to create?
Or is there a better way? A very wise and benevolent man once was asked a question, and answered this way:
he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
And elsewhere it is written "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."
I don't go around groping women, yet women treat me as if I do, or on the assumption that I would. Sounds like bearing a grudge to me.
Going back to your earlier statement "We don't exist to be a pleasing backdrop in your life." Well, maybe not a backdrop, but it may shock you to learn that you exist for a reason: "For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."
Not as a sex toy or slave, but as a companion and helper. Not every man/woman for him/herself.
Reported, reviewed, and will respond by 9am PST, Saturday[-Sid]
Closed for now.
Leaving this closed.
I'm sorry this was derailed and went into a holy war, but here we are. Folks, if you're one for religious discussions, do so on a thread in that topic. I don't need folks baiting and chumming the waters to bash each other over personal beliefs and differences.