Unsolved problems in mathmatics and antivax

edited June 2021 in General

Interesting article in today's Times. It's behind a paywall (don't know why I got to see it, they seem to let me in occasionally) so I've included the whole thing below. Copyright of the authors and the Times, obviously.

I've posted it partly just because it's interesting, but partly also as something to show the antivaxxers and antimaskers. This is a general interest article published in a general interest publication: it's accessible to anybody who is educated. I don't mean an educated person will understand all the problems (I sure don't), but they will have a sense of what most of them are about, and will certainly understand the thrust of the article as a whole.

The point is that the kind of people who lead science and maths (and a pandemic is as much a mathematical problem as a biological one) read articles like this for pleasure: in fact, they attempt (and occasionally succeed) to solve such problems for pleasure. The anti-science brigade have no concept how out of touch with reality they are, and a piece like this will at least show them, even if it is unlikely to have much effect.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mathematicians-sum-up-the-big-questions-of-our-time-szsqdqzn7

Mathematicians sum up the 23 big problems of our time
Tom Whipple, Science Editor
Saturday June 12 2021, 12.01am, The Times
Eight of the mathematician David Hilbert’s original 23 problems have been solved since 1900

As a wish list, no one could accuse it of lacking ambition. There’s the problem of free will, the quest for truly intelligent AI and the mathematical basis of mortality. There’s a theory of quantum gravity, of course. And, as befits any collection of great unsolved mathematical problems, there is the Riemann hypothesis.

In 1900 the great mathematician David Hilbert published a list of 23 problems he wanted the world’s mathematicians to apply themselves to.

More than a century on, the London Institute for Mathematical Sciences has published its own. They range from finding a unifying theory of mathematics to providing a rigorous underpinning to quantum field theory, to determining the laws of genetic information processing. Some, such as tackling free will, seem as though they are barely mathematics at all.

That, said Thomas Fink, director of the independent not-for-profit organisation modelled on Princeton’s famous Institute for Advanced Studies, is partly the point. “Sometimes just to pose a problem mathematically means you understand a fair bit about it already,” he said. Serious researchers, such as the Nobel laureate Roger Penrose, have tried to formulate a neurological basis for free will. Fink’s own work has looked at the theoretical basis of mortality.

“Why do we age? Is it a ticking time bomb? For a long time we have just thought it is the accumulation of errors in how our body stores information. But there’s increasing evidence that ageing is not an essential component to life itself.” He has been looking at whether it is a consequence of the mathematics of natural selection.

The institute, based in the Royal Institution in London, produced the list in part because of the creation of Aria, a funding body for blue skies research. “Now’s a great time to focus on the great challenges of our time,” said Fink. “We thought, let’s brainstorm and think what are the great problems of our time.”

Of Hilbert’s original 23 problems, eight are judged solved and 12 partially solved. The solved Hilbert problems include the question of whether if you have two polyhedra — straight-edged shapes — of equal volume it is always possible to chop one up into polyhedral pieces to make the other (it isn’t), and what’s the best way of densely packing spheres such as oranges. The latter problem was solved only in 1998.

Despite 120 years of attempts, three are little closer to completion, among them the Riemann hypothesis, a classic theory that relates to the distribution of prime numbers. Solving that, said Fink, would be revolutionary.

“Countless theorems begin, ‘If the Riemann hypothesis is true, then the following holds’. So, first of all, proving it true or false would have immediate knock-on effects.” Doing so would also, he suspects, yield a revolution. Just as uniting quantum mechanics and general relativity to create a “theory of everything” — a longstanding goal, also on the list — would require new physics, the same would be true here. “I think the Riemann hypothesis is going to require a new type of mathematics,” he said.

But will we get it? Riemann remains intractable. Many of the other problems feel impossible to formulate, let alone solve. How does he think his list will do, compared with Hilbert’s? “This will be a map for 100 years,” he said. “If we can make a start on half or two thirds, I think that would be incredible.”

Head scratchers

1 Theory of everything
We lack a single theory that describes the universe. Gravity, described by general relativity, is not consistent with our quantum field theory of the other three forces. Will this be resolved by string theory, loop quantum gravity, or something new? What are the testable consequences of such a theory, which is beyond the limit of human experimentation?

2 Riemann hypothesis
Attempts to settle the Riemann hypothesis have inspired new branches of mathematics. For example, the Riemann zeta-function is the simplest kind of L-function, and these seem to play a role in modern mathematics similar to polynomials in ancient mathematics. What new concepts are needed to resolve this most important of open problems?

3 Thermodynamics of life
According to Darwin’s theory, evolution is the result of mutation, selection and inheritance. But from a physics perspective, we do not understand how life began in the first place. What is the thermodynamic basis for emergent self-replication and adaptation, of which biology is just one instance? Can it be used to create digital artificial life?

/continued in next post

Comments

  • edited June 2021

    Article part 2

    4 The structure of innovation
    Despite advances in our understanding of evolution, what drives innovation remains elusive. Technological innovation operates in an expanding space of building blocks, in which combinations of technologies become new technologies. Can we characterise innovation in a mathematical way, so that we can predict it and influence it through interventions?

    5 Physics of self-assembly
    Self-assembly is how proteins fold, snowflakes form and viruses assemble. It can be used to manufacture complex and nanoscale objects at low cost. As a physical embodiment of computation, it is deeply linked with decidability. Can statistical physics be combined with computability theory to build a comprehensive theory of self-assembly?

    6 Cosmological constant
    Only a small fraction of the observable universe is made up of known matter. The majority is conjectured to be dark matter and dark energy, for which there is no consensus in explanation. Why does the zero-point energy of the quantum vacuum not cause a large cosmological constant? What cancels it out? Is new fundamental physics needed to reformulate gravity?

    7 Langlands Program
    There is evidence of a grand unified theory for mathematics, called the Langlands Program. It seeks to relate automorphic forms in geometry and number theory to representation theory in algebra. Wiles’s proof of Fermat’s Last Theorem can be viewed as just one instance of it. How can we advance and extend this theory, and what fruit would it bear?

    8 Intelligent AI
    Far from approaching artificial general intelligence, AI has not progressed beyond high-dimensional curve fitting. What mathematical insights could lead to more intelligent AI, such as causal reasoning, functional modules or a representation of the environment? Are there fundamental limits to AI and what might this tell us about human intelligence?

    9 Repairable instead of robust To be sure of success in the face of uncertainty, we make plans that can cope with the unexpected. One way is to be robust: able to absorb a known setback. Another is to be repairable: easily modifiable in the face of unknown setbacks. Our approaches to threats, such as war or climate change, tend to be robust. What would a theory of repairability look like?

    10 The operating system of life Networks of gene regulation govern morphogenesis and determine cell identity. The concision of viruses suggests that this genetic software uses subroutines like digital software. What are the laws governing genetic information processing? Can they shed light on the operating system of life, setting the stage for a biological analogue of the silicon revolution?

    11 The mathematical universe Wigner noted the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in physics. Today, we are seeing the reverse: attempts to advance physics, such as string theory, are driving mathematics. Is there a convergence between these two disciplines, and should this inform how much we fund and advance mathematics? Can Tegmark’s mathematical universe be made rigorous?

    12 Bridging networks and graphs Network science, which tries to extract meaning from real world networks, is popular but unsophisticated. To realise its potential, it must build on more rigorous concepts from graph theory. Can we develop a formal notion of network geometry and a thermodynamics to describe deviations away from it? How can we characterise network modules and other substructures?

    13 Theory of free will The existence of free will has no grounding in the known laws of physics. Some attempts have been made to link it to quantum phenomena, but a theory of free will remains elusive. Is it a phantom, a consequence of life, or a more general attribute of the present moment? What new physics is required to understand this seemingly vital concept?

    14 Collective creativity Collective creativity started 300 years ago when the scientific paper sped up research by enabling fast marginal advances over slow major ones. Today, anonymous collaboration platforms such as Wikipedia suggest we can speed up much more. But why and when does collective creativity work? Can platforms like Gowers’s Polymath transform the process of discovery?

    15 Programmable matter We can cause surfaces and volumes to change shape on command using polymers that respond to temperature and current. What are the scope and limits of such programmable matter? Can we use differential geometry, recent advances in algorithmic origami and other mathematical tools to provide a language for reverse engineering useful shapes and mechanisms?

    16 Foundation of QFT Can quantum field theory, which describes all elementary particles and interactions, be made rigorous? An open problem is to prove that for any compact gauge group, a Yang-Mills theory exists in four dimensions and predicts a lightest particle with positive mass. This will likely require new kinds of mathematics and offer a new perspective on physics.

    17 Mathematical dualities Dualities play a key role in how we form insights in physics and mathematics. Examples include the Geometric Langlands correspondence, dualities across quantum field and string theories, and the ADE classification. Are dualities an artefact of how we decipher new theories, or do they have a more fundamental cause? Can we systematise them to discover more?

    18 Engineerable AI Evolution and innovation both make use of interoperable functional modules to increase the odds of successful tinkering. But deep learning algorithms, by contrast, are globally wired. This makes them difficult to build up in a hierarchical way, as well as hard for humans to understand. Can we formulate a framework for AI that is engineerable?

    19 Theory of simplicity In an increasingly complex world, we seek simplicity in how we organise technology and society. But we don’t know how to describe simplicity, much less construct it. Physicists have developed various models of complexity, but what would a theory of simplicity look like? Is it connected to being able to readily reconfigure to new environments?

    20 AI-assisted conjectures
    Good conjectures, through spotting patterns and applying instinct, can inspire new branches of mathematics. Because mathematics is exact and coincidences can be interrogated, automated pattern detection is immune from the bias normally found in high dimensional search. Can machines help identify candidate conjectures and speed up theoretical research?

    21 Mathematics of causality Causality is fundamental to how we make predictions and structure society. Yet our mathematics for describing it is poor. Can a more sophisticated theory of causality help unlock challenges such as intelligent AI, the operating system of life and even how we build physical theories? How can we move from a microscopic to a macroscopic notion of causality?

    22 Emergence of virtue The fully-informed rational agent view of economics is inadequate for describing real world behaviour, especially virtuous activity. Can insights from the microscopic view of behavioural science and the macroscopic view of thermodynamics form the basis of a co-operative game theory that accounts for the emergence of virtue in human behaviour and enterprise?

    23 Theory of immortality Ageing is ascribed to the accumulation of errors — an inevitable consequence of the increase of disorder. But mounting experimental evidence suggests that ageing is not a fact of life. Is ageing a thermodynamic necessity, or is it instead favoured by natural selection? Does it emerge in artificial life? Is it possible to slow ageing or even stop it?

  • edited June 2021

    I don't see the Llnk to the article. Oop, never mind! I see it now.

  • That was certainly interesting, and makes me realize how small I am amongst those intellectual giants, but @CuddleDuncan, I'm having trouble following your logic. What's the connection between this article and antivaxxers?

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)

    Neat.

    I can see how a better understanding of the physics of self-assembly, in particular, could help develop faster and more effective treatments for disease in the future—but until I read this article, I had no idea that was even a thing people were researching!

    Forget vaccination: the advances hinted at here are way beyond that, far less intuitively understandable from a comparatively uneducated viewpoint (like mine).

    I knew my knowledge of reality lagged behind that of actual scientists and doctors, but dang. I'm really out of touch.

    Thanks, @CuddleDuncan!

  • edited June 2021

    This comment was reported, reviewed, and is against forum rules for spreading disinformation on Covid and vaccinations. [-Sid]

    Not sure if it’s the anti-vaxers or the vaxers who are anti-science. Not sure why we are punching to vax children who even the CDC says have a 99.997% survival rate — that’s without receiving treatment and we now have treatments that are known to be effective. In the interests of scientific engagement, perhaps someone would like to fact check this and provide citation for any statement that is incorrect.

    1. Is it true the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting Covid? (Yes)

    2. Is it true the vaccine does NOT prevent you from carrying Covid and possibly infecting others? (Yes)

    3. Is it true that we have never developed a fully effective vaccine for any coronavirus? (Yes)

    4. Is it true that the vaccines skipped early-stage trials entirely? (Yes) And is it true that the late stage human trials have either not been peer reviewed, have not released their data, will not finish until 2023 or were abandoned after “severe adverse effects”. (Yes)

    5. Is it true that Vaccine manufacturers were NOT required to demonstrate that the vaccine causes a reduction in severe illness, hospitalization or death, for reasons including the fact that Hospital admissions and deaths from covid-19 are simply too uncommon in the population being studied for an effective vaccine to demonstrate statistically significant differences in a trial of 30 000 people.

    6. Is it true the vaccine manufacturers were NOT required to demonstrate its ability to save lives or prevent transmission: the trials were not designed to find out? (Yes)

    7. Is it true that According to the latest CDC data, COVID-19 is unlikely to cause death in the majority of the population. (Yes) And is it true according to the latest CDC data that the overall lethality of COVID-19 is similar to a moderate seasonal flu? (Yes) And Is it true that, for our children, COVID is even less lethal than influenza? (Yes)

    8. Is it true that safe and effective drugs for the prevention and treatment of COVID are now available effectively negating the need for an ‘emergency use’ vaccine? (Yes)

    9. Was fetal tissue (from aborted babies) used to develop this vaccine? (Yes for all. J&J will say no, they used cell lines grown in a lab. What was origin of those cell lines?) and does this not provide some people a moral grounds for refusing vaccine? (Yes)

    10. Is it true that these vaccines were authorized under an emergency approval which allows for a vaccine that “may” be effective, compared to the non-emergency approval process where a vaccine must demonstrate “substantial” effectiveness? (Yes)

    11. Is it true that COVID vaccine manufacturers have demanded legal indemnity for any harm or injury caused by their products. The effect of legal indemnity is that vaccine manufacturers cannot be held liable when injuries and deaths occur. (Yes) NOTE: If these vaccines are as safe as claimed, why are manufacturers insisting upon indemnity? Would you buy a car—or anything else—from a company that is unwilling to stand behind its product?

    12. Is it true that vaccine producers as Merck and GlaxoSmithKline in the past have paid billions in criminal penalties and settlements for research fraud, faking drug safety studies, failing to report safety problems, bribery, kickbacks and false advertising? (Yes)

    13. Is it true that it was not necessary for vaccine makers to test their products against a neutral placebo, a requirement for all other drugs and pharmaceutical products? (Yes)

    14. Is it true that the safety profile of a vaccine cannot be established without testing it against a neutral placebo, and that this was NOT done for these vaccines? (Yes)

    15. Is it true that Normal safety protocols for vaccines involve testing in animals prior to testing on humans, and that this is especially critical with a coronavirus vaccine given its history of ‘pathogenic priming’ (With previously attempted COVID vaccines, pathogenic priming caused an exaggerated immune response in lab animals resulting in severe injury and death.) yet COVID vaccine makers have been permitted to bypass animal testing and move directly to testing on humans? (Yes)

    16. Is it true that there is no data that defines the vaccine’s interaction with other vaccines or even other prescription medications. (Yes)

    17. Is it true that the vaccines rely on messenger RNA/DNA technology —a genetic modification technology has never before been used in humans. (Yes) And is it true that the consequences of introducing genetic altering technology into a human body is unknown, and the potential exists for catastrophic consequences for the person receiving the vaccine and for any future children? (Yes)

    18. Is it true that Emergency Use Authotization law is clear: States are barred from mandating a vaccine approved for emergency usage. (Yes)

    19. Is it true that according to the Universal Declaration of Bioethics and Human Rights consent is described as: “Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention is only to be carried out with the prior, free and informed consent of the person concerned, based on adequate information. The consent should, where appropriate, be expressed and may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without disadvantage or prejudice.” So mandating covid vaccine would violate human rights? (Yes)

    20. Is it also true that, according to the Nuremberg Code, developed in response to the medical abuses of the Nazi regime, informed voluntary consent means that “the person involved… should be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force,  fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion.” And given this, the Coercive vaccine policies that are being proposed by various governments and public health officers are a clear violation of Charter rights and freedoms and ethical medicine? (Yes)

    Looking forward to thoughtful replies. 🙂

    @CTCuddleGuy - I will remind you of the forum rules regarding Covid 19: "Accurate information is critical for something as serious as Covid-19, particularly for a cuddling community. For this reason, we may intervene in response to misinformation, fake news or conspiracy theories on this subject." I will leave this comment intact as only to serve as an example of things NOT to post in the future. [-Sid]

  • @Cuddle_RN it's true that the connection is distant.

    The kind of people who think about and create vaccines are the same kind of people who pose and solve problems like these. Yes, it's a different field but that doesn't matter because I'm not talking about the field, I'm talking about intellectual capacity. All the conversations we have about vaccines on this forum, or indeed any other, are at a vastly lower level than the actual conversations amongst the key scientists who advance human understanding.

    We don't have to be able to take part in these conversations to be able to benefit from them. But before we argue with the people who do, we should recognise their knowledge and ability. The antivax fanatics do not.

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)
    edited June 2021

    This again. Well. Accurate information (as accurate as I can get it) below the cut.

    "The vaccine does NOT protect you from Covid."
    The vaccine is not 100% effective. No vaccine is. But taking it makes you far less likely to catch Covid than if you didn't take it—and in the unlikely event you do catch it anyway, you may have a milder case than you otherwise would.


    "The vaccine does NOT prevent you from carrying Covid."

    I think I'll just quote the CDC here: "A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) are less likely to have asymptomatic infection or to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others."


    "We never developed a fully effective vaccine for any coronavirus."

    We've never developed a 100% effective vaccine for any disease. Fortunately, vaccines don't have to completely protect every person who takes them in order to protect most of the people who take them, thus lowering the chances of anybody getting sick (even those for whom the vaccines don't work). See smallpox, polio, diphtheria, etc.


    "The Covid vaccines skipped early stage trials entirely."

    Uh. No, they didn't. To quote Dr. Andrew Bradley:

    "There was fast-track in the execution of the clinical trials. It's very important to know what parts were fast-tracked and which parts were not. The fast-track part were regulatory approvals, funding, data analysis and submission to the FDA. Those are all paperwork items. What was not fast-tracked was enrollment of patients, clinical follow-up of these patients, capturing the events which occurred and the follow-up."

    Unless what you're objecting to is the fact that multiple mRNA vaccine platforms against infectious diseases and several types of cancer had demonstrated encouraging results in both animal models and humans as early as 2018, giving the mRNA Covid vaccines a lovely boost into non-human primate testing?


    "The late stage human trials have either not been peer reviewed, have not released their data, will not finish until 2023 or were abandoned after 'severe adverse effects'."

    As of June 10, 2021, 30 vaccines have reached the final stages of testing. The link in this paragraph will take you to a page where you can learn all you like about the development of, say, the Moderna vaccine, or the Pfizer, or whatever your heart desires.


    "Vaccine manufacturers were NOT required to demonstrate that the vaccine causes a reduction in severe illness, hospitalization or death."

    ...Why would they? They proved that it stopped most people from getting the virus. That's... that's what it's for. Everything else is just a bonus.


    "COVID-19 is unlikely to cause death in the majority of the population."

    "Even though all-cause mortality due to COVID-19 may not be known for a while, two new studies highlight that 173,300 (79.5%) of excess deaths from March through August were COVID related, with 4,535 deaths occurring from March through July in younger adults ages 25 to 44, or 38% of all excess deaths in that group. ... A New York Times opinion article written by three US experts notes that, over the past 20 years, 11,000 young adults have died in July. This year (2020), more than 16,000 did."

    And then there are people like me. I believe I've mentioned this several times already in various threads, but I really preferred my lungs the way they were before! "Not dead" ≠ "fine and dandy."


    "According to the latest CDC data that the overall lethality of COVID-19 is similar to a moderate seasonal flu."

    That's an amazingly blatant lie.

    "In a paper published in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, physician-researchers at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (BIDMC) assessed the relative impact of COVID-19 on patients hospitalized with the viral infection in March and April 2020, versus patients hospitalized with influenza during the last five flu seasons at the medical center. Overall, the team demonstrated that COVID-19 cases resulted in significantly more weekly hospitalizations, more use of mechanical ventilation and higher mortality rates than influenza."

    Note also that "Laboratory-confirmed flu activity is low at this time. (6-1-21) Elevated influenza-like-illness is likely related to COVID-19."


    "For our children, Covid is even less lethal than influenza."

    Amazingly, that's actually true. But here's the thing—I don't care that little Jimmy has recovered when, frankly, he never had to be carrying around the disease that (thanks to him being a vector) killed Grandma and crippled me!


    "Safe and effective drugs for the prevention and treatment of Covid are now available, effectively negating the need for an ‘emergency use’ vaccine."

    As of March 2, 2021, "Current use of drugs to prevent COVID-19 is variable, there is a high level of uncertainty regarding the evidence-base, and there are numerous randomized clinical trials of many different drugs underway to inform practice."

    Vaccines are way ahead of drugs here. And let's face it—all the post-infection treatment in the world isn't gonna stop you from infecting twelve dozen other people before you make it to the hospital (where you likely wouldn't even be going if you'd just taught your immune system what to look out for from the get-go).

    There's a reason vaccines, not medicines, were what wiped out smallpox.


    "Fetal tissue (from aborted babies) was used to develop these vaccines."

    Like human sourdough, yes. The starter's been gone a long while now. Ship of Theseus, anyone? My grandfather's axe? The Roman Catholic Church, at least, says it's morally a-okay to take these vaccines.

    "While we should continue to insist that pharmaceutical companies stop using abortion-derived cell lines, given the world-wide suffering that this pandemic is causing, we affirm again that being vaccinated can be an act of charity that serves the common good," they say.

    And it's past my bedtime. Guess I'll tackle the rest of the misinformation later—or maybe someone else will have handled it by the time I wake up! That'd be a nice surprise.

  • edited June 2021

    @CTCuddleGuy thank you for making my point so eloquently.

    Not sure if it’s the anti-vaxers or the vaxers who are anti-science

    It's the anti-vaxers. It's easy to demonstrate - the vaccine scientific community has produced hundreds of papers on covid vaccines, and thousands upon thousands about other vaccines. I'm not aware of any anti-vax science at all. If you have some, please post a link.

    Note that this forum does not permit the propagation of untruths. If you want to demonstrate that something is true, post a link to a reputable source (preferably a primary source). Note also that this is a British website, it just happens to have a lot of members in the US.

    You wanted a detailed reply, so here it is.

    1) Err, not sure what your point is, vaccines aren't supposed to do that

    2) They are not supposed to do that either. (In fact most covid vaccines do to an extent, but that's a free bonus)

    3) Well yes, but are you suggesting that we shouldn't try?

    4) No. Last time I checked there were 15 approved vaccines, each of which went through it's own testing procedure. Skipping early stage trials, if it was done, is irrelevant once the later stage trials have been done. I myself have looked at published vaccine trial data: it is true that some of it had not been formally peer-reviewed at the time of regulatory approval, but the data was provided to the regulators (and often published) and any scientist could have raised concerns, if there were any. All of this is now irrelevant anyway, we know how the vaccines work in the real world because there have been numerous independent studies. Detailed studies on sub-cohorts, e.g. pregnant women, are indeed ongoing, but these groups are not being vaccinated.

    5) That's false from start to finish. Which vaccine had a trial group of 30,000? And which stage trial are you referring to?

    6) Again, vaccines aren't meant to reduce transmission.

    7) Well, the death rate is less than 49%, yes. Your subsequent points are nonsense. For a start, nobody really cares what the CDC thinks - it's only one regulator in one country.

    8) Wait, you are claiming that there are drugs that prevent covid ... and that that drug is not a vaccine? What's it called?

    9) You are claiming this is true for all 15 vaccines?? No, it does not provide moral grounds for refusal: had the babies been murdered for their cells, that would.

    10) I was going to write false but, on reflection, that might have been the case in the USA. However, since a pandemic is the very definition of an emergency, I'm not sure what your point is.

    11) You are suggesting that no second hand car dealer has ever tried to wiggle out of giving a warranty. It seems to be a general theme in your points that trying to get the vaccines out as fast as possible was a bad thing.

    12) Profoundly and dangerously irrelevant: your point is a direct attack on the concept of using evidence in criminal trials. Your point is that "Jim committed a burglary in the past, and therefore he must be guilty of this particular burglary".

    13) Again, there are at least 15 vaccines. If you want to make a claim like this at the very least specify the vaccine you are talking about.

    14) No. You may be confusing safety and efficacy.

    15) For most of the vaccines I can't imagine why you'd bother testing them on animals, complete waste of time. You seem to be forgetting that the covid vaccines were threequarters complete before covid was discovered.

    16) This is my favourite! "Is it true that 'the' vaccines wasn't tested against things that didn't exist at the time!" Also, it's a vaccine .... it only exists in the body for a matter of hours before being metabolised. Unless you received two vaccinations at the same time, the question of interaction with other vaccines doesn't arise. Pfizer's global stage 2 trials involved 43,000 participants. Even if it was supposed to avoid other drugs (I don't remember the selection criteria and I can't be bothered looking it up again) in such a large cohort enough subjects would have been lying, wrong, forgotten or simply ticked the wrong box, that any severe reactions with common drugs would have been uncovered. Now that well over two billion people have been vaccinated we know that there aren't any of any great significance.

    17) Again, nonsense. For a start, such vaccines (which is not all of them) do not involve "genetic altering" technology as you falsely claim. They do use what might be called "gene-altered" techology. I think you may be confused as to when the genetic alteration occurs: it is in the laboratory, not the recipient's body.

    18) No idea. But why would anybody care about sub-national regulation during a pandemic? It's just admin. If you don't like a local law, get it changed.

    19) Nobody, anywhere, has seriously suggested making vaccination compulsory. In many places it was explicitly ruled out the moment some controvery-hungry journalist brought it up. Also, Human Rights are what we decide they are. If we decide that compulsory vaccination is required to protect Human Rights, then we'll simply change the rules.

    20) What policies?

    Perhaps you ran out of space but you seem to have missed point 21.

    21) Is it true that thePfizer and AK vaccines save lives? (Yes - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/phe-monitoring-of-the-effectiveness-of-covid-19-vaccination )

    Covid death toll is officially about four million so far. True total is probably closer to double that.

    It's noticable with that you seem slightly obsessed with ancient history. Whatever rules were bent a year ago is neither here nor there. We now know for sure that the approved vaccines are all much safer than driving to work.

    My overall impression of your post - rightly or wrongly - is that you are really scared of getting the vaccine and I have to say that in terms of being scared about something, you have my sympathy. But I can't help feeling that your well-being would be better served by thinking and talking about that fear, rather than lashing out at vaccines.

    I have one friend who is terrified of getting vaccinated. Last time she had a vaccination, as a child, she had a severe adverse reaction and nearly died, so her fear is very understandable.

  • @CTCuddleGuy I am just going to answer number one. It's not a yes or no question. I am going to change a couple words to make my point....

    "Is it true the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting Covid? (Yes)" -> "Is it true bear spray does NOT prevent you from getting killed by a bear (Yes)".......

  • edited June 2021

    I'm not aware of any anti-vax science at all. If you have some, please post a link.

    It's because there isn't. Virtually the only professionals in the medical world touting anti-vax nonsense are western naturopathic "doctors" and people who back them (sometimes it's fresh, naive nursing grads doing this and it makes me sick). Naturopaths as such are not qualified to speak on such subjects, and the literature that gets put out in such circles as scientific is anything but, if you do enough digging. Go look at the prerequisites to get into and graduate from a naturopathic institute compared to actual medical school. Your average naturopath is basically a nutritionist with a degree in obscure theology.

  • [Deleted User]Deltron2000 (deleted user)
    edited June 2021

    I don't see the link to the article so can't comment on what it says, but today we live in an environment where everyone wants to blame someone else, or follow conspiracy theories, and wants to convince themselves that they are intellectually superior by proving other people wrong. For example, I sat down with a girl I know who didn't get vaccinated and I thought had legit questions so I explained the pros and cons and the realities of the situation to help her make up her own mind, but her argument was that I was a sheep and if I was vaccinated and knew it worked then why would I wear a mask around her? In my mind that is just a dumb argument but in her mind she proved me to be a useless follower who just had his argument destroyed and therefore she is intellectually superior and won the day. She didn't really have questions as much as just wanted to attack my argument. It's part ignorance and misinformation but also part ego, People will just do what they want to do and you just have to look out for yourself, you can't change a person's mind or tell them what to do with their body, all you can do is try to give them a new perspective and leave them to it.

  • edited June 2021

    @CuddleDuncan "All the conversations we have about vaccines on this forum... are at a vastly lower level than the actual conversations amongst the key scientists who advance human understanding.

    We don't have to be able to take part in these conversations to be able to benefit from them. But before we argue with the people who do, we should recognise their knowledge and ability. The antivax fanatics do not."

    AMEN!!! CUDDLEDUNCAN for Global Grand Pubah 2022 - Make Deferring to Experts Great Again 😁

  • Whilst I commend those who have taken the time to respond to @CTCuddleGuy, sir, the burden of proof is on YOU. "perhaps someone would like to fact check this and provide citation for any statement that is incorrect." THE AUDACITY. You're making these claims, you're responsible for backing them up.

  • edited June 2021

    This comment was reported, reviewed, and is against forum rules for spreading disinformation on Covid and vaccinations. [-Sid]

    @CuddleDuncan

    Actually, I invited thoughtful replies, not “detailed” responses. 🙂

    Seems we do agree (1-3) that the Vaccines do not prevent one from contracting the disease or carrying it and infecting others, and that we have never developed an effective vaccine for any coronavirus. Given that, I do not find it hard to understand why large portions of the population do not plan to vaccinate.

    On 4, if there weren’t a reason for early stage trials, they wouldn’t be a part of the normal process. They are not irrelevant, as you claim, “since later stage trials” have been done — unless that is, you are aware of later stages trials where immunized human patients are being intentionally introduced to the virus (as would happen with early stage animal trials)?! It is during this later stage testing in SARS covid-1 trials where pathogenic priming produced extremely high death rates in the animals used for testing. What tests have been done to ensure current vaccines will not also drive up pathogenic priming? (None)

    5 You say false, I invite you to cite source.

    6 I wrote “save lives or reduce transmission”. You ignored the former. As for the latter, I do think most people would be perplexed by your contention that vaccines are not meant to reduce transmission. Local campaigns to vaccinate are citing that as raison d’etre. I don’t see a lot of polio today. That’s not due to an effective vaccine?

    9, Yes, as noted. Fetal tissue often/usually is obtained from aborted fetuses. Some do view that as murder. I’m not taking a position on that, but concede that for those who do see it that way, moral grounds to object to the vaccine clearly do exist.

    10 Ah, some thoughtfulness here. 🙂 Point is that standards were lowered due to emergency. Government sponsored ads running now and encouraging vaccines stating they were “developed using the highest standards” are patently, demonstrably false. Why lie when you are in the right?

    11 Are you suggesting that we should hold the medical establishment to the same standard that’s applied to second hand car dealers? I’d have thought something higher.

    12 Actually, in jury trials, we often ARE allowed to impeach a witness’ credibility based on prior perjurious statements and the like. So I’m not sure your point. My point is there’s a motive for misrepresenting and a history of bad acts. Caveat emptor.

    13 I’m referring to ALL.

    14 FDA submissions normally compare efficacy AND adverse reactions (safety) vs placebo. I’m not confusing the terms. My point holds.

    15 Puzzling that you can’t imagine why you’d bother testing on animals when the reason was embedded in the question. Are you familiar with pathogenic priming? Have you read the results of the covid-1 testing on ferrets?

    16 here you resort to a nonsensical reading of my question. Let me clarify: At the time this vaccine was being developed, vaccines (for OTHER diseases) and prescription drugs (for OTHER diseases) certainly existed. No tests were conducted to examine possible interactions and adverse outcomes. If I’m wrong, please cite.

    17 I’m not confused about where the gene altering occurs. I’m using the standard language to describe the drug. Long term impacts of using such drugs are unknown and unknowable. Check history of, oh, let’s say Thalidomide. Maker said safe. Government said safe. Long term impacts tragic. Those who do not read history are destined to repeat it.

    18 let me be clearer: I’m happy the law as written does NOT allow mandate. What I’m not happy about is state institutions (eg state run universities, etc.) announcing policies that contravene the law. Read on...

    19 Im sorry, but are absolutely incorrect when you say “nobody anywhere has seriously suggested making vaccine compulsory”. (Where do you live?) This statement seriously undermines your credibility. See, for example, Indiana University, see journal of medical ethics vol 47 issue 2, see John’s Hopkins schoolOf public health, see UPenn, see Brookings, see Bloomberg, see WHO white paper April 2021, see Barron’s, check the debate in the French Senate, check University of Michigan faculty senate resolution, check State of a Connecticut’s recent (timely?) repeal of religious exemption to mandatory vaccines, see Harvard Health, check Nebraska Legislature, ask Australian Prime Minister Morrison, see US military, see pending case in New Mexico, see JAMA, see current lawsuit by healthcare workers in Houston, etc,etc,etc...(By the way no ancient history cited there. That’s all current stuff Not sure why you feel I’m history obsessed. Ad hominem as a last resort, perhaps?)

    UK data cited is laughable. Here’s why: The study itself indicates that vaccines were initiated AND a lockdown was introduced. ALL reductions in ESTIMATED covid deaths appear to be attributed to the vaccine. What was the impact of the lockdown? How did vaccinated population outcomes compare to placebo population outcomes? (Answer: unknown as there was no placebo population nor was there a test group not subject to lockdowns.) You accept this as good research? I do not.

    Interestingly, in closing, you do not know my personal situation — whether or not I have been vaccinated or should be given my medical history. You’ve also no idea my educational and professional background. The facts might well surprise you.

    I find it disappointing that asking questions and inviting correction is perceived as “lashing out”. Sadly, that’s where many who are purporting to be “for the science” have gone. Emotional responses to fair, rational questions. Science should be all about questioning, seeking evidence, and following the facts. When scientists don’t want to engage in fact based dialogue, we should all take note. Sadly, that is too often the case today.

    Thank you for proving my point.

    Both @CuddleDuncan and @DarrenWalker have provided ample responses to your misinformation and anti-vaccination posts. [-Sid]

  • edited June 2021

    This comment was reported, reviewed, and is against forum rules for spreading disinformation on Covid and vaccinations. [-Sid]

    @Cuddle_RN

    Pick one point and offer some evidence or launch personal attacks at the questioner, you choose the latter. Hence, again confirming my point.

    What is it about this topic that triggers people so much that they seem unable to engage in rational discourse? Duncan suggested I am afraid. Fear may be playing a role here, but on which side of the discussion?

    So simple to offer a proof point. You asked, here you go.. For example, on 4 my note talks about pathogenic priming. In May 12, 2020 interview Dr Fauci said ‘I must warn that there’s also the possibility of negative consequences, where certain vaccines can actually enhance the negative effect of the infection.’ And in the same interview ‘Do you get an enhancement effect (from the disease)? There have been a number of vaccines, when the vaccine induces a sub-optimal response and when the person gets exposed they have an enhanced pathogenesis (development) of the disease.’

    It is in the early phase testing WHICH WAS SKIPPED FOR ALL THESE VACCINES that enhanced pathogenesis is detected. See my factual references to the Covid-1 testing on ferrets. This effect is what has derailed the covid-1 vaccine. There is no evidence to suggest the problem has been solved. Fauci himself is still saying it can happen. But we are vaccinating anyway with a vaccine that has not been tested for this characteristic.

    Care to respond with rational discourse, or do you prefer to launch another emotional assault on my character instead? 🙂

    This is baiting. Thanks for playing, but you're done on this topic. If you post on the Covid threads again, you will earn yourself a forum timeout, @CTCuddleGuy . [-Sid]

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)

    Lots of claims in your posts, @CTCuddleGuy. Very few links. In short:

  • edited June 2021

    So simple to offer a proof point. You asked, here you go.. For example, on 4 my note talks about pathogenic priming. In May 12, 2020 interview Dr Fauci said ‘I must warn that there’s also the possibility of negative consequences, where certain vaccines can actually enhance the negative effect of the infection.’ And in the same interview ‘Do you get an enhancement effect (from the disease)? There have been a number of vaccines, when the vaccine induces a sub-optimal response and when the person gets exposed they have an enhanced pathogenesis (development) of the disease.’

    What was said in May 2020 is pretty much old news. Covid was a developing situation in May 2020 and we were only 2 months into the Pandemic. He was being bombarded daily about a possible vaccine so that quote was educated speculation based on past experiences, such as experimental vaccines for HIV.

    Correct. And thank you, @FunCartel . At issue was not Fauci, but governments' responses to a deadly pandemic - every government that followed science-based protocols did much better than populist administrations (Trump, Modi, Bolsonaro) that ignored data, science, and masks/social distancing protocols. [-Sid]

    Bottom line: as the number of vaccines administered has risen the number of Covid cases has dropped. I think those numbers are staring everyone in the face everyday, yet a staunch few choose to indulge in faux debates about the efficacy of vaccines.

  • [Deleted User]Mmart (deleted user)

    @FunCartel Thanks for putting this in simple terms without the need to demonstrate intellectual capacity. The numbers are speaking to us.

    JUST BE KIND

  • I'll remind everyone the forum rules on Covid:

    Covid-19: Accurate information is critical for something as serious as Covid-19, particularly for a cuddling community. For this reason, we may intervene in response to misinformation, fake news or conspiracy theories on this subject.

    It may take us moderators up to several days to respond to anti-science and anti-vaccination and Covid-denialism, but we will attend to them eventually.

    Carry on.

  • @DarrenWalker - as far as research into self-assembly goes there's a project call Folding@Home that simulates protein folding. It's not trying to derive a general theory of anything, but rather it's for modelling of proteins and how to stop them folding correctly. In particular, over the last year there was a project modelling COVID-19. I believe the simulations found some sites on a COVID-related protein that could be useful targets for a vaccine to attack it, but I don't know if any of the current vaccines incorporate that information. Tens of thousands of volunteers donated computer time to run millions of simulations,

    Folding@Home is also running simulations for Alzheimer's, Huntington's, Parkinson's and cancer.

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