The term "gypsy" now

deefinedeefine
edited September 2021 in General

TL;DR: Worth reading.

So I heard from someone else that the word "gypsy" is just a slur that's as offensive as n****r, but I haven't heard the term used the same way (often?) - only as a slur when someone said "jipped" (or "gypped"?) when I was young, to mean tricked into being stolen from, before I knew where that slang came from. The term "gypsy" seems to be more of a slur used by people in other countries by people who hate certain Romani cultures that may or may not call themselves "gypsies"; I've heard a few US people use the term as a slur that same way (just to refer to pickpocketers), but it's been rare.

Anyway, I've talked to several people who called themselves "gypsies" (whether by heritage or pride), and I referred to them that way when it was meaningful. I've never called someone a "gypsy" derogatorily, though I did use the term "jipped" (how I thought it was spelled) or "gypped" before I understood its history. I honestly can't say that I'd refuse to call them by the name they chose; I've talked to several people who's online handle contained "gypsy", and if I ever asked about their heritage, they took great pride in the term if it came up. I can't deny them that. I hate to say it now, but I legit fantasized about being in the Disney cartoon Robin Hood movie (gypsy?) caravan as a kid 😆 (if I'm remembering that movie correctly), I've always loved the stereotypical style and attitude presented in movies etc (like the fortune teller machine in Tom Hanks' Big). Sorry, bad me! I've had a secret romanticized fantasy of that since I was young. I think Jack Sparrow is modeled like a traditional (culturally-stereotypical at least) "gypsy", and I love that look as well.

So, I don't know, I'm sure I'll get burned for saying any of this, and refusing to refuse to call people by their chosen names if they happen to contain the word "gypsy", but I don't see it as the equivalent of n****r, and I think it's wrong to cast that aspersion on the term; maybe it's used like that by certain people or certain cultures in the world, but it's not a historical reference to sub-human slaves like blacks have been referred to here in the US... I don't know how it is in Britain or the UK though. Also, I'm 25% Dutch, and the term "Dutch" has become sort of a (joke?) slur 😆 (thanks Austin Powers), and I know I'd be greatly offended if someone was telling people to stop saying "Dutch" because they think I'd get offended and they'd be marked as a bigot... I consider nothing wrong with being Dutch, as I think many people calling themselves or their businesses Gypsy do too.

Note that I've heard "Jew" used as a slur A LOT (especially in Utah), but nobody's calling for the banning of that term... same with "blond"... which has been used as a slur for dumb people 😆 or "Polish"... I mean, I'm not gonna refer a business with "Gypsy" in its name to someone without that word in it 😆 That's ridiculous, go tell the business owners the word they take pride in is offensive and derogatory. I'm not buying it. I simply will not refuse to call people by their chosen names, I will take pride in someone taking pride in their name when they mean it as a good thing.

PS Here's some businesses I found with "Gypsy" in their name... and no I don't think they're trying to rob anyone.

Hipsy Gypsy - Online Hippie Store, Boho Clothing, Hippie Boho Jewelry
Gypsy Soul store: For Gypsies & Dreamers
Gypsy Moon Emporium: A wee specialty shoppe situated in a Victorian cottage.
Gypsy Shop | Etsy
Gypsy Queen Cuisine: Lebanese Street Food
Gypsy Life Surf Shop | West Palm Beach, FL
Gypsy Handmade - Artisan Jewelry & Accessories
Urban Gypsy, a unique clothing shop
Rebel Gypsy - Enhance your makeup routine with our gorgeous line of cosmetics!

That's just 2 pages of a Google search 😆 Sorry if I've offended anyone. Please take down the post if it's too much, I hope it doesn't give me a forum strike.

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Comments

  • CatloafCatloaf

    Big shout out to Gypsy Rose Tattoo in Calgary who did one of my piercings. I'll be going back.

  • dontrememberdontremember

    @davebutton also Gypsy Vanner, a breed of horse that looks very much like the Budweiser horses, only smaller. They were deliberately bred by Gypsies to pull the Gypsy caravans.

    https://vanners.org/

  • YourEmbraceMelYourEmbraceMel

    The belly dance community has largely decided to not use the term gypsy to avoid offence. There have been many troupes with Gypsy in their name or dance performances labelled gypsy, normally with a stereotypical romanticised version of them. Agreed not all people of that heritage are offended by it and some like it. Just shows that everyone is different.

    I think it doesn’t sit well with a lot of people to pretend to be gypsies when they have suffered such prejudices. They don’t get to take their costume off and be someone else.

  • UKGuyUKGuy

    I'm always suspicious when someone calls themselves something yet gets 'offended' when someone else calls them the same thing. 'Oriental' is a good example. Tons of businesses have this word in their name and yet people get offended if you refer to them by the term. In Britain, what used to be called gypsies are now called 'travellers'.

  • oberonoberon

    All this stuff boils down to is that we don't get to pick what is offensive to others, especially groups that we are not a part of. If you respond to someone asking you not to use a term for them with anything but a quick apology and changed behavior you probably lack empathy and need to examine why you are so unwilling to change.

  • SoftHairForDaysSoftHairForDays

    @oberon

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod

    The word you mention is an exonym: a name coined by others for a specific group, not the name they give themselves. The word is heavily laden with racist, stereotypical and negative connotations. As I understand it, the name this group give themselves is Roma or Romani.

    There are numerous Traveller communities, of which the Roma are one and, for example, Scottish Highland Travellers are another (few if any left now), and traditional fairground groups are another. When I was a kid we had a community of Tinkers in the village, who had only relatively recently become settled.

    Unless you can explain the differences between all of those terms accurately, and I can't, you don't know what you are talking about (I don't) and therefore risk giving offence. And therefore if the communities themselves tell you that certain terms are offensive, don't use them. There is a world of difference between somebody using a term of themselves, and somebody else using it of them. And, of course, into the midst of this complexity there are people trying to reclaim or redefine particular words.

    @UKGuy

    In Britain, what used to be called gypsies are now called 'travellers'.

    Yes. The first word was either offensive or incorrect depending on to whom it was applied. The second term, being much more general, covers all itinerant groups.

    I'm always suspicious when someone calls themselves something yet gets 'offended' when someone else calls them the same thing.

    I don't understand. Suspicious of what? And why did you put 'offended' in inverted commas?

    @davebutton how many of the businesses you listed are owned and run by Roma?

  • deefinedeefine

    @oberon1

    You missed what I said.

    All this stuff boils down to is that we don't get to pick what is offensive to others, especially groups that we are not a part of. If you respond to someone asking you not to use a term for them with anything but a quick apology and changed behavior you probably lack empathy and need to examine why you are so unwilling to change.

    I didn't mention this in the post, but the person had "gypsy" in her username, which she changed (because that's not her heritage) and asked me not to use that term for her anymore, and I had no problem doing that. What you missed was that I was also told to never use the term at all for anything, even to say the word when referring to businesses or usernames with "Gypsy" in their names... 😆 which is ridiculous. It seems you're commenting on something that didn't happen here, though you're not wrong generally.

    If you think I'm insisting on using the word wherever I want, then you also missed the boat there.

    I know I made a long post, that's why I put TL;DR: Worth reading at the top. It's actually worth reading the whole post and understanding it. I always worry about people jumping to conclusions on my posts, but to have you reply as if I don't care how others feel about the usage of the term is misreading my post and also reading into it. Try again. It seems most here got it.

    https://www.cuddlecomfort.com/forum/discussion/11766/literacy-please-can-we-have-more

    I'm not sure a longish reply to your comment will be useful if you didn't read or understand the original, but I at least should attempt to clear the record for you. Feel free to understand or instead just dig deeper into the trench of inaccurate assumptions, but it's clear upon reading my post accurately what I was saying.

  • oberonoberon

    I read your post very carefully. And then i posted a general thought about how we as a society should respond to minority groups asking us how to refer to them. Notice i used "we" in my reply and was not singling out anything you said in your post.

  • deefinedeefine

    @oberon Your reply was:

    A. We can't choose what's offensive to others.
    B. "If you [not we?] respond to someone asking you not to use a term for them with anything but a quick apology and changed behavior you probably lack empathy and need to examine why you are so unwilling to change."

    "You" implies the OP, me, within that context. I didn't do that. I was fine with not addressing her by the name she changed from. No one before statement (B) stated or implied refusing to stop calling someone by the name they say not to call them by... that's why I'm kind of like "What? Why's he saying that? Did somebody need to hear that?" Maybe I misread Catloaf's, dontremember's, YourEmbraceMel's, and UKGuy's initial replies, but I don't think what they're saying means they're refusing to stop using the word when it's a slur.

    Anyway, the issue I was pointing out was just that it was ridiculous that someone tell others not to use a word they consider offensive even if it's addressing the name of someone with that literal word in it 😆 I really don't want scorched-Earth bans like that to become normalized (which it seemed like it was to her), it just disrupts conversation and is probably just as offensive to do that with the person that chose that name willfully.

  • oberonoberon

    So you came here looking for permission to keep using a term you know people find offensive or comiseration that you can't use it anymore. I don't find either a very high quality discussion and disagree with your initial TLDR.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    @oberon ~ Thank you for you!!! 🥰
    All well put.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    Awhile back, I was contacted by another user here who had read my profile and saw that I used the term, "sprit animal". It was pointed out that my use was misappropriation and could be offensive to others.

    I had no idea! So I immediately deleted it, wrote back thanking them, and after explaining how I'd meant it, asked if they had any appropriate suggestions for me.

    Another had read my profile and picked up on another problematic part that they felt fully alienated them. And although I'd changed my wording to be more explanatory and inclusive, they had already 'seen' me through an unintended lens and wanted nothing to do with me.

    My point is, we all are offensive and we all offend people. Some know this and think, "So be it. I'm not responsible for how others feel." and carry on with doing what they've always done. Some know this and think, "I'd like to be true to myself while not marginslizing others." And others don't think or care about it at all.

    I'm happier being in that middle group. I know I've made missteps and, given that I'm human, will continue to. But I'd so much rather find a middle path to stumble down, than knowingly traverse off course to stomp all over another's feelings along the way.

    Second point... If you know something you're doing is offensive, and not in an expected way (like movies, TV, comics, etc where being offended is sometimes what's on order/delivered) then why continue doing it? To me, that's just willful obstinacy and a slippery slope to bigotry.

    Really, there's too much of that in the world already ~ So, no thanks.

  • oberonoberon

    You don't know until you know. Then you know.

  • cookiecrumbcookiecrumb

    ah, discussions on offensive language = exercises in semantics.

    I keep chickens. I collect eggs. Sometimes eggs are broken. Sometimes I step in chicken poop. I still feed the chickens, They still lay eggs.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    @cookiecrumb ~ I thought I kept chickens... But it turns out I was keeping dinner for suburban predators.

  • cookiecrumbcookiecrumb

    Ooh, I know what that's like.

  • mekkiecmekkiec

    @CuddleDuncan Everything you've said is spot on.

    I do a lot of volunteer work in Ukraine, a country where the term is very much a slur. Being of Roma heritage there isn't just a lifestyle choice. They are darker skinned than other Ukrainians and are viewed as being sneaky thieves who just can't help themselves. This same thought is applied to orphans over there, and if you're off Roma heritage and and orphan... Then you're one of the lowest in society. Ukrainians in general will never be completely trusting of you. Yes, your orphan status stays with you and is marked on your ID for life.

    Housing discrimination is a big thing over there too. So if you're brown skinned (Roma), renting an apartment and a nice white family comes along... Yes. You will be out on your behind.

    I have seen this racism first hand. I have heard the term used very much as a slur.

    There was a time when we used things in business names like "Sambo's" as well as the N word. There were products called "N***** Soap." It didn't make it right. I'd like to say we've moved on as a society and we're much more enlightened now, but we still have things like "Uncle Ben's." The term "uncle" was used as a term for an older enslaved man. It's not referring to him being an actual uncle to someone. You heard this term often at slave auctions. It might seem harmless now because we don't use the term in that way anymore, but if we look at the history of the product we'll see that it very much was created in a time where it was still ok to refer to an older black gentleman in that way.

    We just happen to live in a culture without a lot of exposure to Roma or Romani culture.

  • BabichevBabichev

    I have known Roma who refer to themselves as gypsies and are proud of the name.

    There are others who reject it as a slur.

    Leaves one in an uncomfortable position. Pay attention to context, call people by whatever name they want to be called if you know what that may be, and use the least offensive term possible.

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    I hope a lesson was learned in this thread

  • CatloafCatloaf
    edited September 2021

    I do a lot of volunteer work in Ukraine, a country where the term is very much a slur. Being of Roma heritage there isn't just a lifestyle choice. They are darker skinned than other Ukrainians and are viewed as being sneaky thieves who just can't help themselves. This same thought is applied to orphans over there, and if you're off Roma heritage and and orphan... Then you're one of the lowest in society. Ukrainians in general will never be completely trusting of you. Yes, your orphan status stays with you and is marked on your ID for life.

    @mekkiec From a Canadian woman of Ukrainian (Bukovinian) heritage (that side of my family migrated here in the 1910s), I want to thank you for this comment and education to the folks in here of what Roma people go through in that country. I'm not of the Roma heritage, more leaning towards Carpathian/Ruthenian but I know there is so little exposure on how they are treated there. It's not fair.

  • dave31415dave31415

    A related anecdote. Aways back I took a class on Native American Studies and the instructor who was a researcher in the subject told us that she worked and conversed with thousands of Native Americans and that they almost all referred to themselves as Indians and were by no means offended by the term. It seems being offended by such terms and wanting other people to change the way they speak was really a request of the liberal American academic community and not the actual people themselves. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is more or less the same (though I don’t claim to know anything about this particular issue). Sometimes I think the liberal academic community (as well intentioned as they might be) needs to look in the mirror and notice how much they are projecting their own perspectives on the people they claim to be standing up for and how that this is itself a kind of subjugation. Changing the way we speak and reducing our language is disruptive. It can still be appropriate I think when we are indeed unintentionally hurting the feelings of broad group of people. But I think it’s important to ensure that this desire is indeed a broadly held perspective among those actual people and that we aren’t just passing around third party perspectives that are popular among American academics.

  • BabichevBabichev

    I follow several YouTube channels done by young Native Americans and they refer to themselves as Indians, often spelling it NDN.

  • Libra0Libra0
    edited September 2021

    The current world heavyweight boxing champion is Tyson Fury, and his nickname is “The Gypsy King”. It’s an ode to his Irish traveller history.

  • TravismoTravismo

    This is quite an interesting thread, I like seeing the variety of viewpoints. The way I see it, in personal conversations it’s easy to know who you’re talking to and what labels they accept. Posting public comments for all to see, one should just use whatever terms are widely accepted by the group in question and express sympathy to those who might take offense. Cross-cultural dialogue is always prone to misinterpreted intentions.

  • I_Am_Not_A_CatI_Am_Not_A_Cat

    They've literally built walls around Roma communities in Romania. Roma face extreme discrimination throughout much of Europe. There was even an experiment in Italy where they had 5 or so year old white girl wander the beach seemingly alone and multiple people tried to help. They did the same with a Roma 5 year old girl. The girl got ignored, others yelled at her to go away etc.

    Roma are one of the few groups that genuinely benefitted under the Soviet Union. They had jobs, could go to school etc. When the Soviet Union fell they were left to the locals and their prejudices and things have worsened significantly.

    In the United States they aren't a group people are often even aware of and they don't face nearly the same level of discrimination. So asking Americans isn't going to tell you much.

  • I_Am_Not_A_CatI_Am_Not_A_Cat
    edited September 2021

    An example, the bodies of 2 dead Roma children were on the beach for an hour. The people ignored their corpses and continued as usual, sunbathing, eating lunch etc. just a few yards away.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/21/italy.race

  • MelancholyMelancholy

    I suppose it depends what part of the country or world you were raised in.
    I never thought there was anything wrong with that word. But then I was talking to a friend of mine who was raised in the midwest and she had a very negative opinion of them. I was really surprised because I didn't know much about them.

  • deefinedeefine

    Necroreply: I just stumbled upon this article:

    'It's time Kiwis stopped the "insulting" misappropriation of Gypsy culture, a Romany Gypsy campaigner in Auckland says.'

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/119760414/stop-stealing-our-culture-romany-gypsy-community-says

    I'm not gonna argue with people on whether/when "gypsy" is offensive or not, I'm just gonna refer them to people or companies or groups that refer to themselves as gypsies, and they can say to those people that the name they consider part of their sacred heritage to be offensive to them 😆 Maybe we should start telling Native Americans or indigenous people that their tribal names are offensive to them because some people use them as slurs? 🤔

    Not reading the 18 new replies since I looked at this last 😆 With just a glance I can see it's already devolved into misunderstandings and flaming and shaming and accusations etc... I may post something else I stumble upon about this though. I'm OK if you feel I'm a horrible person for defending people's choice of heritage-based names for themselves, that's the only thing I'm defending.

  • I_Am_Not_A_CatI_Am_Not_A_Cat

    Guy just sits there and thinks it's up to him to decide whether or not people like a term. Openly stated he ignored people's responses. That's actually kind of fitting, given one response was about dead Roma children being ignored by those near them.

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