Who Wins?

JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart
in General

I've learned something in the last couple of years about arguments.

I like being right. Experience has shown me, however, that I tend to learn more when I'm open to the possibility that I'm not right.

Because of this, I've redefined what "winning an argument" means to me. It's not when I've managed to bully or cajole someone into accepting my point of view. Instead a "won argument" (or discussion) for me is one where I walk away with a knowledge or perspective that I didn't have before.

Interestingly, this kind of "winning" can be enthusiastically pursued without risking someone's friendship. In fact, some of my very best friends are ones who disagree with me in regard to opinions that I hold dearly. As I've pursued this strategy, I've gained friends and increased the nuance of my perspective. I've gained these things without losing an ounce of my own sense of self.

I've lost nothing, and have won a great deal.

Comments

  • NicoSnuggsNicoSnuggs

    “Winning is where I walk away with a knowledge or perspective that I didn't have before.” <— good words, and a deep thought.

  • [Deleted User]CharlesThePoet (deleted user)

    As in all things, context is key.

    If we are arguing about the merits of various flavors of ice cream, that’s one thing.

    If we are arguing about safety and boundaries and tolerance, that’s a different context.

    If we are arguing about herd immunity, public health, finally minimizing the threat to everyone and simply GETTING THE @$&#ING VACCINATION…

    Well, that’s another thing entirely.

    All that said, I don’t bother arguing with the ignorant and mystical.

    I simply try to verify it wasn’t a typo, or that I misunderstood.

    Then I note that they are dangerous to be near, ignore them, and move on my way.

    At the point when I am dealing with them as “adults” it’s far past the time any argument I could make would change them, or benefit me.

  • JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart

    @CharlesThePoet I agree that some beliefs carry consequences. In situations where someone I know holds a belief that I believe to be harmful, my first strategy is to try to understand them before attempting to make them understand me.

    One result of this is that I can often learn how deeply their flag is planted on the top of their hill. They may be willing to hear my perspective. If so, I try to offer it without insulting them. If they're resistant, they are unlikely to change their mind when I resort to disrespectful tactics.

    One of the things that I appreciate about you is the fact that you show respect to others on this forum, regardless of whether you agree or not. I've never seen you engage in personal attack, and I respect you deeply for that.

    Unfortunately, such tactics are not unheard of.

  • BabichevBabichev
    edited October 2021

    I have a good sense for when someone knows more about a subject than I do and when that happens, I tend to back off, shut up, and listen. I “win” because I learn something I didn’t know before and so now I’m less wrong. ;)

    On the other hand, I also have a good sense for when someone knows less about a subject than I do. Then it depends on what is at stake. In professional discussions I’m a pit bull for science because what is at stake is the well-being of the client and the integrity of the profession. In other situations, it may not matter so much.

    I had the good fortune to be a part of a very large discussion group with some of the brightest minds in physical therapy whose common interest was in discussing current pain science and how to apply it in practice. They had a strict rule against personal attacks, even mild ones, and would say, “Here you are safe but your ideas may not be. You are not your ideas. An attack on your ideas is not an attack on you as a person.” Not many people make this distinction. What I loved about it was that we could have rigorous debates and wrestle with the hard questions without it getting mean or stupid. I was never afraid to raise any question or disagree. Of course, you were expected to be able to defend your claims with good, credible evidence. I learned so much from those folks, not just about pain science but about critical thinking, how to read and evaluate research, and how to have a really good, productive debate. I miss it. Unfortunately, FaceBook brought about the demise of that forum which had existed for a good 15 years. The immediacy and convenience of FB caused a lot of folks to gravitate there and there were some excellent discussions in the beginning but it got diluted by all the other distractions of FB. I still carry those lessons with me.

  • SoftHairForDaysSoftHairForDays

    @JoyfulHeart - I agree that we can learn more when we are open to the possibility that we aren't always right.

  • _marC_marC

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life
    edited October 2021

    There really isn't a single winner or loser in arguments, or war. One might be perceived as having "won" but at what cost?

  • JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart
    edited October 2021

    @craM That picture reminds me of the table about the blind men and the elephant. They all encountered a different part of the elephant, and evaluating by touch, they couldn't agree on the nature of the elephant.

    In one sense, each one was right about what they encountered, and in another sense, none of them really grasped what an elephant was.

    I think of this often in my conversations with others, to remind myself that I don't have the whole picture about anything.

    ...

    Even in situations where another person's error can have dire repercussions, it's never profitable for me to ignore their personhood and attack with insults and sarcasm. In that situation, I believe it is even more important to build and maintain trust.

    @quixotic_life I agree. There is no real value to creating a sense of victory by destroying a person or group of people. There really is no winner in that situation.

  • [Deleted User]Protector (deleted user)

    @craM Nice. 😂

  • _marC_marC

    @DimpleGirl
    I hope to still be teachable as I age. I've heard many times that when you get older you get set in your ways and you don't want to change. I never want to be that… a cranky old man

  • Ahmedali999Ahmedali999

    It's part of life ,debates,competition ect. And will never end.

  • JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart

    @Ahmedali999 I like to think that people can learn to treat one another with respect, even if they disagree. That's basically what my post is saying. It may be unrealistic for some, but I believe it is worth working toward.

  • BabichevBabichev
    edited October 2021

    While I’d like to be treated with respect, I don’t necessarily require it. Crossing boundaries - not tolerated. People lashing out at me because I just happened to be the messenger of some news they did not like - I tend to shrug that off. I know I’m not really the target.

    I try to play by Crocker’s Rules. It states that people have permission to communicate with me in what they consider to be the most efficient manner possible. They do not have to dance around the subject to be “polite” or out of fear of hurting my feelings. Another aspect is that you take responsibility for your own emotional responses. If you’re offended, you accept that’s your own problem. On the other hand, I try to be kind in my own communication. So it’s a discipline I expect of myself but don’t impose on others. I’m not always the best at it but I’m working on it.

    https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/crockers-rules

    A lot of discussions would be more productive if people were more familiar with logical fallacies. For example, just because a practice is ancient or popular does not mean that it is effective. An example: bloodletting was popular as a treatment for all sorts of ailments for over 4,000 years, up until at least the late 1700s, and practiced on at least four different continents. That doesn’t mean it was effective. Another thing that will derail discussions is when some people are coming from a factual/evidential/rational point of view and others are coming from an emotional point of view.

    I think not taking yourself too seriously helps.

  • Ahmedali999Ahmedali999

    @JoyfulHeart
    I agree with you love,respect but some won't listen sometimes they can be changed if I/ you carry on been nice even if they are rude, there is a miracle behind it . Amazing post and it's very important to work towards it.
    Me myself I always learn to improve my morality sometimes I lose it which is wrong then feel guilty about it.

  • nurturingmannurturingman

    Even in a two-person debate, it’s hard to say who won. In a group debate, it’s even harder, if not impossible. I don’t believe the point of any discussion in this forum is for anyone to “win the debate,” and I’ve noticed that to continue to try to win by repeating your argument is unproductive.

    I like to consider myself an avid discussant, one who loves to engage in discussion and strives to argue my points logically and convincingly, share insight based on both imagination and experience, listen carefully to others in order to understand them, and further the discussion rather than derailing it or hijacking it— though I admit I have been guilty of not living up to my ideals now and then. 😉 In any forum discussion, I might think some discussants perform better than others (based on the behaviors I outlined above), but I don’t think in terms of winners and losers.

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod
    edited October 2021

    @JoyfulHeart

    I like being right.

    I don't. On the whole I prefer being wrong since it gives me a chance to learn something.

    Particularly good remarks by @Babichev. A lot of the arguments on here are rooted in logical fallacies or false premises.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    @JoyfulHeart I love this!!! Even if we're not ACTUALLY in an argument/discussion/debate

    I tend to learn more when I'm open to the possibility that I'm not right.

  • [Deleted User]Saysoh (deleted user)

    I prefer discussions over arguments, but that's just me.

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