Oh wow, I didnāt like the way Elpaso shoved womenās issues aside, but I didnāt think it was bannable. I wonder what happened?
I have three people in my phone with āhomieā in front of their name and all three are women that equates to sixty years of friendship collectively. Of course my close male friends have titles too, but I think you get the point. There are men that do have solid friendships with women. Weāre not all d1cks.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 why are you being so aggressive? The OP has basically told you to back off as politely as she can, yet you keep pushing under the guise of being helpful.
The compliment was not ambiguous. Heart-eyed emojis beside a physical appearance compliment is clearly romantically/sexually charged.
If you're so supportive of women not being abused, how about teaching your male peers to act appropriately rather than scolding women for how they handle inappropriate behaviour.
Why don't women be more direct at the first sign of inappropriateness? Because all too often, men have taught us in so many ways that it's not ok to do so. We are told we are reading something wrong... we are told that we are overreacting... we are called names... we are minimized, invalidated, beaten up, sexually assaulted or worse. You're old enough to be of the age to have experienced a culture when a woman speaking up was considered disrespectful and warranted a slap across the face, publicly, to "put her in her place", followed by a bunch of puffed up men slapping each other on the back and laughing about it.
As an abuse survivor yourself, you must know that speaking up is not "simple". If you'd read the OP's full response (the one that included a response to you), you'd have seen that she did indeed check in with him and reaffirm her boundaries. His response was lackluster... no acknowledgement, no apology. And she rightly was unsatisfied, yet still willing to give things a chance. Clear communication might have worked with someone who was open, willing to check himself and reciprocate with clear communication; but it didn't.
The emoji definitely took it to creepy territory.
@xelda I agree with you.
I'm sorry that we live in a world where women's voices are suppressed, muffled, and discounted by men. Since we do, men should be handing women a bullhorn, not picking their words apart.
To the women on this thread:
š£š£š£š£š£
Take as many as you need.
@Sheena123
I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure ElPaso was a return banned user who also liked to stir the pot in the forums and attack users.
@xelda Your characterization of me "scolding" is off base. I'm being direct. BEING DIRECT is so foreign to women because of the aforementioned training to be chattel. I'm the messenger. You attack me because you find it safe, so I'm a proxy for the men who you still fear being direct with.
I forgive you.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 Since you are being direct, I will be too. My last two posts did not name you, but they are directed at the kind of attitude that so many of us men have.
When someone (a woman whose boundary has been crossed by a man) starts a conversation, even if we disagree, we ought to be asking ourselves what we can learn from them, not what we can teach them. We shouldn't be giving advice about what they should do differently (victim-blaming), and we wouldn't be insinuating that they need to move their boundaries.
To do those things is a reinforcement of her concerns that men don't listen.
We can put out hands over our ears and chant, "NOT ALL MEN!" But to me that sounds unconvincing somehow.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 Not responding to or communicating with someone who has been inappropriate or is unwilling to self examine can be a perfectly direct, acceptable and effective method of communication.
@JoyfulHeart Respectfully, if somebody doesn't follow up a communication with questions to clear up what is ambiguous, then they are a victim of their own making. I was simply giving my take on it. I didn't present any threat. I didn't express anger, though I was accused of it. @LorraineMorgan said "@UCpaaHVg6u0 I'd clearly said my whole life men hadn't respected my boundaries so why would I be keen to have yet another conversation about it, especially over the agreement I was looking for platonic." right after she told @Cuddle_RN that she asked for confirmation, which sounds contradictory. It sounds like she needed more conversation. I'm not unsympathetic, but what good does it do to be avoidant of communicating more fully? I keep hearing that everybody needs more sympathy and understanding, and I offer that, but I'm not going to tell somebody that they can be passive and avoidant and everything will be okay. I tell people to gather strength and fight your battles.
@xelda And yet I still offer you communication!
I wish you strength and courage in your battles, too!
The veil came off the victim blaming in that comment.
@JoyfulHeart, bless you!
@UCpaaHVg6u0, my dude are you in therapy? I really hope you are. You remind me strongly of my starter husband and the dismissive way he speaks to me. He also was abused. He didn't deal with it as an adult and the consequences of not dealing with it destroyed our happy home.
I hope you want better for yourself. You deserve to be happy. Wouldn't you like to be someone who spreads joy and positivity in this world? It's a much more pleasant way to live, I promise you! Please do what my ex won't do...take this thread to your therapist and show them what you wrote and what others wrote back. That will show him/her exactly what they're dealing with and how to help you.
You said "I don't even know why you're trying to cuddle if you're having so much trouble with men not respecting your boundaries!" Why?? Um, for the same reason we all are, we're social animals who are born with the need for touch!
"I just went on the assumption that you're an adult who takes responsibility for what she says and does." By saying this, you're implying that she's actually not an adult. And that's not cool. She came to the community to say WTH is this and get some feedback and THAT IS OK. It's one of the things women and dare I say, humans, do!
"It sounded to me like the comment was ambiguous with regards to complimenting you, and getting upset over an emoji is ridiculous." My starter husband LOVES to call me ridiculous. It wasn't until he began an inappropriate entanglement with AN 18 YEAR OLD GIRL after we'd been together for 26 years and the entire family was in therapy as he burned everything to the ground that I stopped accepting that. It was really validating to have literally all the mental health professionals tell me that I was not the problem.
"Communicate and figure it out. Why is that a problem?" Because you invalidate and dismiss us!
YOU WANTED DIRECT BUDDY, YOU GOT IT.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 I'm confused why you keep repeating that all that is needed is a follow up conversation, and then calling her a victim if she doesn't. There are big pieces of posts that you are not taking in. Like the thorough explanation I gave in my post as to WHY people (women in particular) may choose not to be "too direct". And like the fact that the OP did take the advice to give him the benefit of the doubt, restate her boundaries and add something in her profile.
This was in the OP's post, literally the sentence before she responded you: I took your advice @Cuddle_RN and asked him to clarify why he said that, then reaffirmed my boundaries. He just said "Appreciate, I understand"... I think it'll take more conversation because I am left feel quite uncomfortable and still disheartened especially as this is my very first meet š
Further to that... the guy's communication wasn't ambiguous... do you really think commenting on a woman's looks, following by this emoji š isn't romantically or sexually charged? If you think it's ambiguous, then may I respectfully suggest that you lack sufficient understanding of a woman's experience to be offering advice to them.
I'm not sure where I saw this: it might have been here, but I think it applies, and illustrates why "not all men" is problematic.
Not all sharks will attack a swimmer, and the one out there in the surf might be one who doesn't, so I'm going to go swimming.
Gentlemen who are protesting that it isn't all of us: we need to be showing women that fact, not telling them.
@all_the_above I can see that I'm really hitting nerves with people. It just shows me how insidious being a victim can be. This all started with a little alleged compliment with emoji from some dude we'll never know more about, because we've been going through amazing layers of š© trying to analyze what this experience means. I'm now officially an abuser because I insisted that OP clarify with conversation with mystery dude on the meaning of the message. I am a "victim blamer" because I suggested she is (re) victimizing herself by allowing past experiences to determine her (lack of) follow up with the mystery dude. Oh yeah, she may have clarified it, but then she also told me that she didn't want to re-experience it, I guess because of trauma. I'm sticking but my response. She needs to confront anybody who sends ambiguous messages. As I mentioned, I have seen countless profile pics where all the friends chime in with GORGEOUS! BEAUTIFUL! ššš So I'm not convinced about mystery dude's meaning. We got into arguments, as usual, with finger pointing and accusations. All I did was say what makes sense to me. I'm rather immune to your attacks and I forgive you all because I get that, like myself, you've been blinded by the fog that comes with being a victim. I will continue to say that being passive and avoidant is re-victimizing herself, and I'll simply say to find courage to confront. If it makes you feel better to make me the bad guy, suit yourselves. I don't see how that helps.
No one can make someone else into a bad guy
@UCpaaHVg6u0 that is one of the most manipulative things I've ever had the disgust of reading. I wish it broke a rule so no one else would have to see it.
@Cuddle_RN Truly I'm sorry that you went through that. It's really terrible that you spent over a quarter century with a man who abused you. I hear you that you were gaslighted and your feelings and experiences were denied. I know what that is like. I was a child and couldn't end the experience, at least in any way that seemed available. I'm sure that was the same type of feeling you had, though you were an adult. At some point you must have found something in yourself that enabled you to fight back? Forgive me if that sounds presumptive. I'm asking you, did you have difficulty INTERNALLY being able to fight back? Did you ever at any point find YOURSELF being your own prison guard? That's what I'm talking about, telling people not to be that prison guard.
*Also, there's nothing I would like better than to see a woman take charge of the situation and not remain fearful of communicating over something like an emoji.
@Sashamcgee It's hard to respond to such a vague and broad accusation. I guess that's your way of manipulating?
There is such a thing as "engage and enrage." If the OP made a decision this was not someone she wanted to progress with -- which she had every right to do -- nothing good was going to come from going back at him again. As far as I'm concerned, someone can choose to stop cuddling with an acquaintance for any reason. In this case, she did let him know what the issue was and then made a decision that this was not someone she wanted to be with. I don't see her as being under an obligation to rehabilitate him or educate him. It's 2022 -- look around and see that standards of behavior have changed.
@JoyfulHeart You can message me privately if you care to. At this point, your stance seems to be in saying that men here need to stop denying their roles in subjugating women. I agree with that. Nobody who has been chiding me for what I've been saying has been able to do anything except accuse me of vague offenses, like victim blaming. That's really charged emotionally, as I'm sure you know, and I'm wondering if you mean that honestly. From the start, I said somebody with privileges and responsibilities of an adult needs to own their responsibility to communicate with other adults. That's a basic requirement for being a cuddler... You must be an adult. You must be held accountable for what you say and do on here. We are talking about an emoji! I'm not victim blaming. I won't comment on your motives here, except that they arouse suspicion in me.
@WriterGF: Well said! Seconded.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 I prefer to keep the conversation here, but thank you for the invitation.
I don't think that any man will be able to fully understand a woman's emotional reaction, but I think we can get closer if we consider what it might be like to go a lifetime having a lot of people cross their boundaries without consent, including undressing them in their minds, catcalling, and so forth. We can call it a hair trigger, but it's a hair trigger created by men. Yes, you and I have had our boundaries crossed too, but for myself personally, it hasn't been as pervasive and nonstop for decades like it has for many women.
There is a cacophony of men's voices telling women what they should have done differently, or what they should do in the future. Since I recognize that, I make the choice not to be just another one, and I encourage other men to do the same.
This encouragement is rooted in the good-faith assumption that my fellow men are capable of closing our mouths and opening our ears. There is no disrespect intended to you as a human being, but a recognition of the fact that you might have missed some of what the poster said, based on some of your comments.
Earlier, I said that I know I have a lot to learn. This will always be the case. Since the OP of this particular thread is a woman, I'm trying to learn from her, and show solidarity with her as a fellow human being.
There is no shame in taking in something that someone says, finding it disagrees with our perspective, and making the choice whether to maintain or adjust our perspective.
Adjusting my perspective upon hearing new information is part of what makes life exciting and nuanced for me.
I'm sorry if my enthusiasm for learning and my desire for growth in those around me led you to believe that I value you less, because that is not the case.
Honestly, somebody posts a thread asking for encouragementāreassurance that she won't have to confront everybody on here to make sure their motives are really and truly platonicāand what do we get?
"Well, you should confront everyone who says something iffy, and if you don't then it's your own fault you're unsure."
Geez. No. You can skip the emotionally draining "that was a weird thing you said, it sounded non-platonic, was it actually non-platonic or do you have an explanation that may or may not be baloney" stuff and just move on.
You have other options. Not everyone says iffy things.
@JoyfulHeart Victim blaming would be something like "you acted like you wanted more so that you invited the š emoji". I didn't do that. What I did was state the truth that people don't want to hear, that running from your fears is you making yourself a victim, with the caveat being that something that is feared isn't anything real enough to actually injure. You took that as a slight against women, as victim blaming. Somebody with obvious intelligence as yourself saying that, it sounds like you are being dishonest. So maybe you want to message me to clear that up? You don't have to of course. I'll let it stand here as it is, and move on.
@DaringSprinter Well stated in my opinion.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 that was another wonderful manipulation tactic. I won't be further engaging with you. Best wishes.
Thanks, @JoyfulHeart.
@Sashamcgee Good luck to you in your battles with demons, internal and external. If you saw me as one of them, I'm glad that your dismissal of me successfully vanquishes that demon.