@FunCartel 😂😂 He most certainly did. He also embodied “stupid is as stupid does”.
@DaringSprinter Thank you for removing all doubt 😆🤣🤣😆🤗
Well, our former president didn't have a monopoly on foolish speak. In fact one can easily make the case that our current president had him beat long before our former president ever even appeared on the public scene. I guess there is a balance here - because you do have to open your mouth on many issues - else you actually become the fool. I suppose wisdom is the ability to discern between these cases.
@CuddlesByDeep: I try! Realizing that your ideas are stupid is much easier when you show them to other people, versus only ever looking at them yourself.
Maybe wisdom is in the ability to exchange your stupid ideas for less stupid ones.
@DaringSprinter
I think you hit on something here.
@DaringSprinter good observation!
@JoyfulHeart and @CuddlesByDeep: Really? Neat! I think I'll hang on to that idea for a while, then. Thank you.
I'm curious about the "fake" rage... Perhaps I'm too slow to let go of my assuming the best of people, but for the most part I think a lot of the doubling down comes from a place of wishing to be understood/told one is correct than from a place of malicious intent.
Seeking to understand and having the maturity to be self reflective or to critically think about one's thoughts when challenged, isn't always easy for people. Add on top of that all the challenges and fatigue people are facing these days and it's really not surprising that things escalate quickly.
Of course there are the occasional trolls bumbling about with their pyro leanings... And I have no clue what variety of unmet needs that stems from... But I tend to see it as a way for them to experience some sense of control. That said, I often don't have it in me to counter their nonsense, so I just have to try and remind myself of the print on my wall instead of engaging...
@quixotic_life
I think a lot of the doubling down comes from a place of wishing to be understood/told one is correct than from a place of malicious intent.
I agree. I suggest that in addition to a desire to be understood, some people may also be motivated by something which, to them, feels like self-preservation.
As it has been mentioned in other posts, humans can sometimes have difficulty separating their opinions from their identities.
This may be affected by the way in which certain things were learned. Some indoctrination tends to tightly bind identity with one's beliefs.
@quixotic_life: When it comes to rage (fake or not) I was thinking specifically about times when I've said something like "wait, I'm sure that's not true—here's my evidence, can I see yours," and immediately been called a vicious meanie, an intellectual bully, a savage maniac hurling inexcusable abuse.
The doubling down is its own thing, separate from the furious personal attacks thrown at anyone who dares to treat their idea with anything less than unquestioning respect.
I used to stand my ground when I felt strongly enough about something but now tend to avoid forums for the most part as it's just not worth my time and effort.
There is a big difference between a discussion and a debate. Some people are here to gain perspective, others here to win arguments. Each to their own I guess.
Regarding the “Better to remain silent” quote - I’d always heard it attributed to Mark Twain but it seems that neither Twain nor Lincoln is recorded as having said it. It’s still a good quote.
https://shmaltzandmenudo.wordpress.com/2017/01/27/famous-sayings-46-it-is-better-to-remain-silent/
@DaringSprinter ~ Thank you for separating and explaining. Yes. I've seen that happen with you too and it is so frustrating because I imagine you being like, "What the what?!" And I'm over here like, "Wth?! How on earth does what you've said make you a bad guy?" And especially so when others begin the, "Well, some people are just bullies..." kick. I honestly don't get it. I chime in as best I can, yet still...
Maybe their lashing out and crying victim is tied to the unraveling of their perceptions. But self preservation that's dependant on pushing another down, isn't excusable. I get feeling threatened or judged, but I feel like the ways it all plays out sometimes is that their attempts to shift the focus is done by tossing a match/gas lighting others. Hence the pyro trolls comment. I personally feel like they're the actual bullies. Not you (fwiw).
@quixotic_life: Heh. Your image of my reaction used to be accurate. I used to be very surprised indeed! These days I'm not surprised anymore—I've come to expect it, though I still don't fully understand it.
The idea that they're only pretending to be furious, I understand. That makes sense to me.
The concept of identifying so fully with your own beliefs that any threat to them feels like an attack on yourself... that, I have trouble grasping.
If they feel like I've attacked them, though, I don't think it's inexcusable for them to retaliate in kind (or what they think is the same). Tit for tat, right? If I actually had attacked them, I think they'd be right to attack me back.
I freely admit I might be wrong about that, though.
@DaringSprinter ~ What a bummer to expect that. Also, I think it's interesting that for you, pretending to be furious is understandable, but one holding onto their beliefs is baffling. For me it's generally the opposite.
As far as retaliation... The problem is that often people are retaliating against their unchecked and inaccurate perceptions of another's remarks. When all you have are someone's words (no tone, inflection, expressions or gestures) it seems that some are pretty comfortable dismissing what's likely and going to extremes.
Though to be fair, some people's initial clarifications are often seen as doubling down and I think that can be where the gaps in understanding one another can become like canyons, and the parties are left just shouting into the void.
@quixotic_life: No, I understand wanting to hold on to your beliefs.
I mean, if you didn't think they were accurate you wouldn't have them in the first place! And you definitely don't want to give them up too easily—without evidence, you could end up having less accurate beliefs.
What I don't understand is being so threatened by the possibility of getting better, more accurate beliefs that it makes you feel like you're being attacked.
That's just... alien to me.
Wanting to call people names, though—wanting someone, anyone, to hate and abuse—well, that's familiar to me. You know my childhood! I'm used to being on the receiving end of that.
It's not so much that the fury is fake as that it's not really you they're mad at. You're just a convenient target, you know? I understand that.
"Also, I think it's interesting that for you, pretending to be furious is understandable, but one holding onto their beliefs is baffling."
That baffled me as well. Who pretends to be furious?
People should hold onto their beliefs. Why would anybody be baffled by that?
I've been thinking about this question "why do people fight here?"
I think the only real answer is that conflict, within groups, is in human nature. Conflict, in regulated doses, serves a purpose as it keeps the tribe honest, or it helps replace defunct leadership(amongst a myriad of other things). Typically, in real life, that conflict is tempered because there are negative social and physical consequences of mindlessly escalating a disagreement just for the sake of it. (and yes, humans are made up of their ideas, which in turn forms their identity. It is a completely normal response to have emotional reactions to attacks on our identity). If you keep making enemies within a tribe, soon you won't have a tribe.
On internet forums, the final consequence is banning (which is kind of like being exiled from the tribe), but that doesn't happen unless you are some flagrant rule breaker. So, there are no real consequences to not playing nice.
Humans, with the absence of social consequences, tend to not have that inhibition to be nice to each other and there isn't that drive to maintain tribal ties. (i imagine it would be different if the forum was centered around some kind of in person group activity like hiking.)
Now this also probably varies by person. Some of us are better than other at letting things go. Over my 34 years, I've experienced too many wild, at times traumatic, sometimes fun things.
I've backpacked alone across continents, hung out with drug lords, grown up in a poor and violent ghetto, been surrounded by men with machine guns at shady bars in Mexico, skydived, fought in boxing rings, spent weeks surfing in little known Costa Rican beaches, been robbed at gunpoint, launched Space Shuttles (a long time ago now), started companies, worked on oil rigs(occasionally got to run the show, as when things go wrong very quickly and money is being lost, people listen to the engineer), sat in countless hallucinogenic ceremonies with native elders in a temple in the middle of the Peruvian rainforest. I've also been regularly meditating for more than a decade.
Basically "I've seen some sh*t", and internet arguments don't really appeal to me anymore. (But, I'll admit that now and then a cause worth championing presents itself. But even that loses it's luster.)
Also @BuggleBear I would like to be cited when you write the paper.
@tucsonaz ~ "People should hold onto their beliefs. Why would anybody be baffled by that?"
I don't know that any of us "should", I just understand that even in the face of contrary evidence/facts that they do. The "why" though. Dang if there aren't scores of people that truly have me stumped.
@DaringSprinter ~ "What I don't understand is being so threatened by the possibility of getting better, more accurate beliefs that it makes you feel like you're being attacked."
"That's just... alien to me."
Agreed. I mean I get that people may be wired that way, but how they don't recognize the mental cage they're in, or choose to not challenge themselves, or flat out refuse to allow even the slightest of shifts in perspective, it's all a bit of a head scratcher.
Not that one should take advise from a sticker, but in this case...
Also...
"Wanting to call people names, though—wanting someone, anyone, to hate and abuse—well, that's familiar to me. You know my childhood! I'm used to being on the receiving end of that."
"It's not so much that the fury is fake as that it's not really you they're mad at. You're just a convenient target, you know? I understand that."
Yes... I do understand this (unfortunately). Thank you for taking the time to clarify further.
@MCcuddles2 if I write the paper and quote anything you've said, sure 😊
Also, if you haven't yet PLEASE write a memoir. Your life is so dramatic it would make for amazing reading.
Many people fight here due to many reasons.
According to the Science, its because they have the MAO-A gene (propensity to become violent).
According to what many in Japan believe, its because their blood type is B+, or AB+ Literally being born in Japan with a blood type of B+ would make you a social outcast, and would even make it very difficult to land an employment. I had a great time googling this topic.
Violence is an irrational human behavior that doesn't make any sense and all it does is continue with unnecessary suffering, fear and uncertainty. I really wish I can find the cure to end Violence from the face of the earth.
How would your employer know your blood type? I don't even know my own blood type!
I disagree with this @MCcuddles2 it seems to me that there are quite a few people here who are nice to each other without social consequences. Obviously there are plenty who aren't. But I'd say there are just as many if not more who are. If you think about it, each person who reads and doesn't say something rude is in effect being nice to each other. So there are many more people being kind without these consequences.
@InvestorLogic As @BuggleBear said—how do they know your blood type? And what is “the Science”? Chemistry? Biology? I want to know so I can pick a fight. 😂
@Sashamcgee gotta read the next part
Now this also probably varies by person. Some of us are better than other at letting things go.
I did. But I wanted to expand on the thought because it seemed to be lacking some nuance in my opinion.
Its like itching a mosquito bite. You know its not going to help anything and will only exacerbate the problem... but sometimes you just gotta. I will admit to a strategy I started using when I started law school to help with the urge... i just watch animal vids. Kittens, specifically. I find that when I'm irritated and I watch something soft and cute, my brain chemicals literally change and disrupt the path I was on. Perhaps I'll start using that strategy in the CC forum threads in the future.
I’ve heard arguing and conflict, even with strangers online, gives humans a jolt of dopamine. It makes sense that people in a community seeking touch might be lacking situations the stimulate the production of warm and fuzzy neurotransmitters. Thus they might have adapted to finding alternative stimuli.
@sunsnuggler
I would agree that this is probably one of the motivating factors for many people.
@quixotic_life I often tell clients that assuming good intent does not mean putting up unacceptable behavior. It was a hard won lesson for me.
I’ve only been a member here for a week and this is a my very first post so nobody can claim I have ever been a part of any fighting on this site.
That said, I have noticed a lot of negativity on here that feels passive-aggressive to me. Some of the comments on some threads might be trolling but more comments, or sometimes entire threads, sound to me like someone got their feelings hurt over something, real or imagined, then decided to project those feelings on others through forum posts. I could site examples but I am intentionally not going to as I believe that would run contrary to at least the spirit of, if not the letter of, the rules I agreed to abide by when joining this site.
Just my opinion based upon my life experience and a dozen or so threads I have read in the past week.