🤨 Ponderings and POLLS------Verbal Consent Throughout the Ages

sillysassysillysassy
edited March 2022 in General

HELLO CUDDLE PEEPS!!!! This is a bit of a "Thoughtful Thursday" for me. I'm doing a research paper on Consent Surrounding Platonic Touch and I would love your input on a poll to provide input for this paper. 😊😊😊

In the forums we see a lot of different views about what it means to have and ask for consent surrounding platonic touch. In my own life I grew up in the West with an ideology that it was RUDE to refuse a hug from an adult and asking people to NOT pinch your cheeks was completely unkind, unacceptable and disrespectful.

I know that everyone has a different perspective and I'm trying to understand if you learned your behavior as an adult or if you were raised with permission to have an opinion about consent surrounding platonic touch.

I have felt that our society can be weird about VERBALIZING consent as it pertains to platonic touch and I'm wondering how much it has to do with age, demographic, the geographic region that you were brought up in, as well as world views (i.e. conservative vs. liberal training), and spiritual beliefs. I have also witnessed that we have COMPLETE clarity in the severity of touch but the middle platonic stuff is a very gray area and often not discussed.

  • Severity meaning we usually know that if we bump into someone on the way to the bus we should apologize for invading their space and also the extreme of consent as it pertains to rape and physical abuse.

Please be respectful and don't turn this into a political or religious argument because the hammer will come down QUICKLY!!!!!

If you would be willing to participate and respond in the comments below, I would love to know;
------------where you spent your youth, (Region map is provided in the comment section)
---------------did you have discussions PRO/CON about touch from your caregivers or from the school system?
------------------do you have the same idea about consent as it pertains to platonic touch as you did when you were a teenager no matter how old you are now?

EDIT Please oh Please..... I'm asking everyone to use their extra special sensitivity in this thread. I am aware that this is a very painful subject for some. There have been a lot of people in this community who have experienced or are currently experiencing touch trauma. So please please please... reach down deep and find all the kindness and gentleness you have before responding. 🥰

  1. Did you grow up learning it was ok to have a voice regarding boundaries of platonic touch?45 votes
    1. yes
        8.89%
    2. no
      42.22%
    3. sort of. I had mixed messages.
      48.89%

Comments

  • sillysassysillysassy
    edited March 2022

    Here is a region Map of the US from Govt. Census Bureau.

    And to be fair….. those were some seriously pinch-able cheeks!!! 😂 but if I would’ve had my druthers I would have said “that’s enough for today” some sore cheeks were happening!!!

  • OhioMikeOhioMike

    Oh how adorable 😊. I’m working on answering your poll @sillysassy What a great idea .

  • GallowglassGallowglass

    I would have this discussion in PMs. Yours are muted. Peace

  • OhioMikeOhioMike
    edited March 2022

    Ok:

    Spent my youth In East North Central =Ohio 1960s - 1970s

    Raised by teenage parents and attended catholic school which means to me , no discussions about platonic touch

    Same ideas on consent / platonic touch when I was a teenager? Oh my gosh no way. I was a wreck! I really needed an education in life lessons from besides parents who were teenagers and catholic nuns who’s first line of education was the “rod “.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    I do not want to overcomplicate your research paper or send you down a rabbit hole, but there is one aspect I think you should drill down on and that is age and time periods. For example, using myself I grew up in the 60s and 70s and was the son of a career military officer. NOTHING was questioned. Even outside the military bubble, it was a patriarchal construct that necessitated compliance by women and children. To question was to challenge, and to challenge was a threat. I am certainly not saying everything is hunky dory today, but it is oceans away from where they once were. Perhaps have a discussion using people raised before say 1990 and those afterward.

    The 60s, 70s and 80s saw slight incremental changes in social terms. Post 1990 saw e-mail, then the internet and then smartphones which exposed injustices quicker and to people who were previously in the dark. Look how quickly the war crimes in Ukraine are being exposed. Can you imagine how different WW2 would have looked with instant video and information? We are in an age of rapid enlightenment and I think consent bears discussing and distinction in historical terms.

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    I completely respect what you are asking about and I am happy to answer your questions but will do so via PMs. I have a feeling this thread might come of the rails quickly.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    I was raised in the early 90s in a community that saw your personal body (yes, yours!) as belonging not to you, but to a deity.

    Said deity was supposed to have set up a system of authority very like the military, in which you (and yes, your body) were subject to the chain of command. "I'm in the Lord's army—yes, sir."

    Anyhow, what this meant was that you submitted to whatever those above you wanted.

    And if what they wanted was not what you wanted? Well, that wasn't important. Your job was to submit to authority with a willing and cheerful spirit, understanding that the deity everybody worshiped was the one who set this up in the first place and it would all work together for good in the end.

    So, uh. No.

    I had to learn all this bodily autonomy stuff much later in life. In my twenties. Gotta say, I'm a big fan! Consent is awesome.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    @JohnR1972 and @Gallowglass Thank you for your honesty!!!! I would love to have commentary in PM's. I know there are a lot of times people would rather respond anonymously and I appreciate your willingness to speak your truth. 😊

    Aaaaaaaaaand I KNOW people have a tendency to go off topic and take things off the rails but I have HIGH HOPES!!!!

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    There will always be those who deny consent even now, but I bet my bottom dollar you will find more people raised with at least a rudimentary conception of consent after 1990 than before. There is really no such thing as complete change on anything. You think slavery no longer exists? Read up on human trafficking. But my point remains-the very fact we can discuss consent here today is dramatically different than it was in 1970. Back then a woman’s right to have a life outside the home was still a bone of contention.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    @FunCartel YES!!! I completely agree with this.... I am NOT QUITE AS MATURE as you are, but definitely grew up in the 70's 80's PRE internet. I love this statement.

    age of rapid enlightenment

    I want to be mindful of age etc, but that's something I can add as a different bit of input at a later date. This focus was strictly on input from a young age to current understanding. THANK YOU for your willingness to share here. All of that matters..... Military is a big part of how your culture was defined.

    Thanks @DaringSprinter I see you..... you and I had some similar language in our youth. That pic!! @OhioMike

    Thanks to those who are weighing in on the poll. I'm so curious how this will all turn out!!

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    I grew up in the 90s in Ontario, Canada. My family was heavily religious so anything to do with the body was just not talked about. When I was hitting puberty and a certain thing that is common for pre teen girls to experience was happening to me, I was living with my dad. ( my parents were divorced). Instead of calling my mom (who left the church), my dad called a church friend from hours away to talk with me about this female issue and how my body is meant for the lord and my husband. I don’t recall any other time either of my parents talked with me about consent of any kind. I was just raised to believe I need to be married to a man and dote on him for all my life 😩

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    I think everyone will be all over the place on this. I have cousins who are significantly younger than me who were raised by my very open aunt and uncle (who have an open marriage) and they were all versed on consent by age 10. If you touched them as kids—even just rubbing their head—someone in that brood would question and educate you on consent on the spot. They are religious, but religion is what YOU make of it. I suspect religion and consent depends if they are members of charismatic, Pentecostal, or progressive branches of said religion.

    I selected 1990 because many public schools started the “My body” education in the 90s.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    Region:
    Early - Northeast (NY/PA)
    Remainder - West (OR, WA, CA, UT)

    Discussions PRO/CON about touch:
    Early - Mixed messages from various sources
    Later - School & Peets
    Much later - My family, the youth of today and through the CC community/forums

    Same idea about consent... ?
    Not. even. close.!!

    I'm happy to give further details to you privately (through messages or by phone), if you like. And if you're open to sharing your paper when finished that would be awesome!! 🤗

  • sillysassysillysassy

    Thank you so much! @quixotic_life I will definitely reach out for a little more info and clarity. I appreciate your sharing.
    @FunCartel I agree.... There is a big difference between those growing up after the 1990's but its still been pretty interesting seeing the responses here and in my inbox.

    I keep wondering at the people who are drawn specifically to this community/Next layer-post on the forums/Next layer willing to share personal information.

  • JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart

    I was born in the 60's and was still forming my view of the world during the 70's, in the northeastern corner of the US.

    The signals I got regarding touch were very mixed. There was a strong sense that no one owned their own body, and there was a strong message about not getting too huggy with people outside the family.

    There were a number of ways in which many of my early memories of touch were associated with pain, shame, or confusion. As a young man, I began to be aware of the fact that I was missing something important in my life, but it wasn't until much later that I was able to articulate it.

    My earliest cuddles on this site helped me to shed many of the harmful things I had been taught, allowing me to enjoy much more of the healthy kind of touch in my daily life.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    @JoyfulHeart thank you so much for sharing some of your story. I appreciate your open and authentic approach to life. 😊

  • bekah_cuddlesbekah_cuddles

    I was born in the South, spent my youth/grew up in the Midwest, then moved to the Northeast after high school.

    I had discussions about touch from my parents, but it was selective. I had to embrace family members (siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc) and anyone my family told me to. It was up in the air when it came to strangers, but always considered polite to hug upon meeting. Fortunately, I was a very affectionate child and didn't mind most of the time. Teachers would instruct us to touch (ie hold hands with) other students as part of activities, which I found to be completely normal.

    As a teenager, I thought it was rude when anyone rejected a hug. It actually took me until college to realize you should always ask before reaching in for or offering a hug. I remember the first time someone said "no" when I asked them if they'd like a hug. I was shocked and a little hurt, but I had to remind myself that it likely had very little to do with me. I was also very glad I had asked because I'd hate to unknowingly violate someone's consent that way. There are many reasons someone might not want to be touched, especially when they don't know the person all that well.

    I definitely have a much better understanding of consent now than I did in my youth, and much of that was because of my upbringing. I was taught that my body was my own, but apparently that came with a giant asterisk.

  • [Deleted User]Moxytocin (deleted user)
    edited March 2022

    Northeast 70s and 80s, no discussion at all about consent of any kind. The lessons I remember were "Do as I say, not as I do" and "children should be seen and not heard". "We're getting ready to leave, go give Grammy/Grampy/weird uncle Ted a hug and kiss now."

    In early middle school, my friends and I were those annoying girls who flirted with the cute boy by stealing his baseball cap, sneaking up from behind and kneeing him in the back of his knees, or smacking his butt, anything to try to get him to chase after us. We thought it was great fun.

    In high school, boys on the bus would try to grope us as we walked down the aisle. There was snapping of bra straps, pulling butterfly clips out of our hair. If a cute one sat with you, you let them play a game called "trust me", where they would start with their hand on your knee and ask "trust me?" as they inched their hand up your leg. This was a yes or no question but not much of a practice of consent. They usually kept moving whether you said yes or no.

    ETA I JUST remembered, I also had a male 4th grade teacher who would choose a girl each day for the "special privilege" of standing behind him and rubbing his shoulders as he sat at his desk during free or reading time.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    @Moxytocin ~ eew! We had one for 7th bio that always had girls in skirts or certain shirts sit up front...

  • GallowglassGallowglass

    Just a little weird perspective and not an argument for or against anything.

    I'm in my 50s. Dating used to be all about, did you get your arm around them in the movies. Did you get your leg-over afterwards. And we were taught, in a sense, to be fearful. Physical intimacy was taboo. It was, "the goal". The reward. All at the same time. Women would participate and perpetuate the structure. It was how you were judged. It just was normal. (I'm not saying it was ok.)

    That's not to say there wasn't platonic love. It's not to say there wasn't genuine, intimate, and caring love. It wasn't some great plan on the part of the participants, to oppress or be hurtful. It was just something prevalent, and perpetuated by society.

    There was a form of consent. You either got what you wanted or not. If you really wanted something, you were taught that sometimes you had to be more aggressive/pushy, to get the point across. Consent was present. But you couldn't get a degree in it's study. Consent, wasn't the title of any book. Or the concept being discussed discussed at a party. It was all background.

    Consent, as a topic, or as a value, is a fairly recent "thing". It's been interesting to watch. It's made me shudder to see how, at times, it has morphed into witch-hunts, personal vendettas, a tool for virtue signalling, and how it has often seemed out-of-control. But I have seen a lot of value happen, in this space.

    I'm an old dog. I HAVE been able to learn new tricks. The more I practice consent, through the lens of respect, the more at-ease I am with it. The more I practice, the more nuance I have been able to apply. The smoother it goes, the better the results. You don't have to make a clown of yourself. You don't have to be militant in its practice. You don't have to believe that it's awkward. You don't have to be butt-hurt that, "in the old days...". Just try it out for a while, but suspend your criticism. Test it out. I was pleasantly surprised at the results. Maybe you will too.

  • JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart
    edited March 2022

    One gift I have received by learning to ask is that it's ok for me to insist on consent in many areas of my life (not just touch).

    I've learned that it's ok for me to have life/work/relationship boundaries, and it's ok for me to say no to anything.

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