Everyone's definition of "real man" seems to vary. I suspect there never was such a thing.
In my dad's day, you wooed a woman with sweetness and money, then supported her financially without giving her a credit card of her own or allowing her to work outside the home—but in the home, whew, wasn't she but just expected to work? Cooking, cleaning, percolating kids and raising them, keeping them and herself crisp, clean, and cool... oh, and keeping you happy, all the time.
My dad would never have thought of making a woman pay for her own dinner on a date. She's giving him the pleasure of her company and a shot at owning her; what more could a man ask for?
It's a give and take world, after all.
I like current society a lot better. Equality is cool. "Real women" who are naturally happy to serve and "real men" who are proud of their ability to pay for such complete service are out of fashion as gender stereotypes go, and good riddance say I.
The fantasy of a past in which women provided nothing but their existence and men supported them for the privilege of being in the female presence is just that: a fantasy.
Inclined to agree with @DaringSprinter. Especially now that I see the Spoiler.
It is a give and take world. The best relationships and cuddles are when the two parties involved find an agreeable give and take for them without measuring up to modern or old-time group or popular thinking.
I prefer to be a female adult post-1973 so that working full-time, fully supporting myself and having a credit card without a male cosigner is common and accepted, even desired. I would be suspicious of a man that wanted to do everything for me. I can't help it.
Regarding not having money to cuddle, volunteer for extra hours at your job if possible. Cook cheap meals. In real life practice your social skills at every opportunity; maybe you will pick up a side job. If not, your improved social skills will subconsciously translate into better messaging. Perhaps all of this has already been considered.
Don't forget to mention the multiple good aspects that make up YOU.
@DaringSprinter I mean, for most women living in that world, it certainly wasn’t a fantasy. I still know waaaay too many women in their 50s unhappily married to drunks, abusive men or men who do not help these women emotionally, lovingly or physically around the house. Some of these women I know go to bed angry every night. Some of them also still work full time jobs while doting on the men. But nay nay to divorce. Some of them told me “it’s my duty as the wife” “gotta stay together for the kids” “ he doesn’t know how to take care of himself” “he’s just a man. That’s the way they are”. These reasons weren’t even based on religion. It’s just : women were Forced to dote on men back then and had to accept whatever man came to betroth her. There was no such thing as a woman being choosy 😩
Now, women can do things for themselves. They aren’t forced into a servitude of men. We can finally afford to be picky with who we surround ourselves with. I agree with you. I definitely prefer this lifestyle as opposed to the way it was for women back then. Considering we were merely seen as cattle back then, yea, this is much more favourable. Still not perfect. I’d like to take a walk in broad daylight without being catcalled. I’d like men to stop automatically assuming I dress for them. Even when a cop pulled me over, he actually said to me “ah you’re driving the car because your husband has been drinking?” I said “uhhhh no…. I’m driving because it’s my car….” This cop was only in his 40s.
There are still men who see us as possessions: things to own so it pisses a lot of them off when we take our time, be picky or care about our safety. For the men out there that have patience and see the value of spending a good amount of time through messaging and the occasional meet up publicly, thank you 🙏 it means a lot. I know it’s hard to see what women face and just assume we have it easy but a little bit of understanding goes a long way.
I can’t speak for men. I don’t know everything you go through growing up as men. I know you grow up being told to “man up”, “don’t emote” and a whole slew of other things. Almost all the men in my life grew up believing that femininity is wrong so I find some grow up to assume femininity and women correlate and for men to do anything in the feminine column is wrong. I can’t imagine how stifling that must feel. Of course, I can only use the men in MY life as an example. I can only extrapolate my thoughts on tribulations of men through those that surround me. I had one guy call two guys a homosexual slur just because they sat beside each other juuuuust a bit too close 🙄 unbelievable. He’s not a friend anymore needless to say. Even if they were a couple, why is that something to mock? To make fun of? Make it make sense.
Anyways, I apparently am in a blabbering mood…. My apologies.
TLDR: every human is different and reacts to situations differently. There is no cookie cutter way to be so drop the expectations of what others should do. Simply understand the feelings and decide whether that person wanted to vent or actually get advice 🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
@Sheena123 The cop in his 40s story...Wow. I can't imagine having to answer a question like that. Ridiculous. It is hard for me to know when someone needs to vent or wants advice. I think some people are looking for a large selection of both kinds of answers.
@Sheena123, yes to all of that. One thing, though:
My point in calling it a fantasy is that that world never existed—women were never supported merely for their existence. They were expected to provide all sorts of labor.
It just wasn't considered labor because men figured everything a woman did was a natural part of the woman: she'd cook and clean and smile and be loving and caring and sexy and make everyone around her happy just as part of her nature, they thought. Like a bird singing.
Of course doing all that all the time would be difficult for a man. But a woman's not a man, is she? She's practically a different species.
...And that's the fantasy.
It was always only ever an illusion.
@achetocuddle yea, sometimes I’ll wait to see how an OP reacts to others posting and decide from there lol
Thank you @CrissyKat
@Sheena123 Same here. At least if they needed to vent (OK by me) a large number of responses may make them feel heard/better even if the answers are off
@DaringSprinter Still agreeing. And if the woman was a homemaker when some still had to dispose of fireplace ashes, you lived in the country without A/C so you opened your windows and therefore dust laid thick unless you constantly dusted...Ugh, I'd rather go to a public job. Lol.
@achetocuddle: I didn't even think of that. My family had a wood stove (so I've chopped logs, gathered sticks, carried out ashes, etc), but also A/C—we only had to deal with the dust that accumulates in a place housing 12 people without the dirt brought in by wind storms. Dang, homemakers had to deal with so much more than I'm aware of!
I expect they still do. At least these days not all of them are women... and we have more useful technology to help with household tasks.
Anyhow, hopefully @Redmantale isn't too bothered by the turns his post has taken in the months since he posted it. He's got a couple karmas from around February, so that's something!
@Health22
It's always suspicious when someone has a negative opinion of an entire demographic, like all men or all women. I know many women who have a very positive opinion of men.
they expect women to basically take care of all their freaking needs; sexually, financially, and emotionally
Yeah, men expect women to take care of their financial needs, that's definitely a thing that everyone experiences... ?????
why should l company a man in a restaurant and paying for my food
For that matter, why should a man accompany you and pay for his own food, let alone yours? Ponder that question and you might figure out why you've had such unfulfilling experiences with men.
I say this as a man who pays for women's meals (and lots of other stuff) all the time.
@Sheena123
I don’t know everything you go through growing up as men.
Indeed, yet you sure talk a lot about what you think of men's experiences, and I can relate to almost none of it.
@CuddleWho: No need to be mean to Sheena. She's just trying to understand, and sharing how far her understanding goes at the moment. So she's not familiar with your personal experience—it's not an attack on you.
Like she said, her understanding is based off what she knows about the men in her life. Not yours or the men in yours. It's not surprising that you wouldn't relate. Every human is different.
@DaringSprinter
She's just trying to understand, and sharing how far her understanding goes at the moment.
Look, at the end of the day I think Sheena's a good person; I've spoken to her before and she was great. But honestly I don't really believe she really is trying to understand on this issue. I think she's trying to project her beliefs (that men's difficulties are caused by other men in their life) onto us.
@CuddleWho: Huh. Now you mention it, I guess she didn't specifically mention the ways in which society ingrains ideas about what's normal for men into women who then enforce them on men.
Obviously that happens too, and I'm sure she knows it. Based on what I know of her character, I'd guess the omission was just an oversight, not an attempt at blaming men (and only men) for men's social and emotional difficulties.
There might be a layer or two of irony in your comment I don't completely follow, but based on Sheena's many previous comments on this issue, I am very confident that she is indeed trying to blame only men for men's difficulties.
(The truth is of course that many of men's difficulties are not anyone's fault in particular; they're just kind of a consequence of the way human society works.)
@CuddleWho: Hmm. Maybe I misunderstood her. I had the impression that her position on men's social difficulties was that certain social norms regarding what men are supposed to be get internalized—by people from both categories—and then the folks who've internalized those norms enforce them on men.
I did notice a focus on the men who've internalized harmful "masculine" norms, and a tendency to not mention the women who've done the same, but I figured it was because she was talking to men about what men can do to help men.
Could be I was wrong. @Sheena123?
(She might be asleep.)
@CuddleWho if you recall so many of my posts and this one in particular, I’ve said that the men in MY (important part here) life experienced these things while GROWING UP. (Aka: being raised by their parents. Parents (aka: mother and father). A mother (aka: a female). So I’m not always “men are bad”. But the issue here with you not understanding me is the fact that because you don’t experience these things, you think it not to be as adamant. And on top of that I think because you don’t experience these things, you probably don’t believe in toxic masculinity. Well, I’m sorry, but it’s real. And it affects everyone. Horribly. If you want to ignore that, go for it.
As @DaringSprinter explained to you, I’m merely using the men in my life and all the conversations I’ve had with them. That’s a dad, a step dad, two brothers, 4 cousins and about 2 dozen friends. And don’t forget 3 years of cuddling almost solely men. I hear non stop stories of what men experience thanks to toxic masculinity, so you can lead a blissful life thinking it doesn’t exists or that it isn’t as bad as it really is, but I choose to live in reality and talk about it.
You can be bothered by what I say but when I talk about these issues, it isn’t coming from a know it all place. I actually truly (whether you want to believe it or not) care about the experiences of everyone. I am a feminist but I am one of those feminists that fights for all sides. I believe women deserve to have autonomy over their own bodies. I believe men deserve a fighting chance in court when it comes to custody over their kids. I believe that all genders should be recognized without an attack on them. Sorry you don’t see it through my eyes but what I say isn’t meant to be rainbows and butterflies.
I said all that to say I’m not “projecting” my feelings on this and I’ve never said it’s solely on men’s shoulders but considering women were controlled by men a lot more then men being controlled by men, the ideals that mothers force onto their kids most likely came from men 🤷🏼♀️ I love when my cuddlers want to vent to me how they feel. When they know I’m a safe space, I hear so much about what men experience growing up and it saddens me. So yea, I care…
All right, I guess I did misunderstand a little.
Wasn't expecting the idea that most toxic "masculine" norms came from men—I mean, maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't make any difference now. Leastwise I don't see how it could. Whoever the inventors were, they're all dead now.
Now we're all just people dealing with the harmful social structures and norms that've existed all our lives, whoever set them up to begin with (and they're hurting all of us, one way or another).
Doesn't seem much help to point fingers over that.
For those who're confused, I'm responding to this comment: "I’ve never said it’s solely on men’s shoulders but considering women were controlled by men a lot more then men being controlled by men, the ideals that mothers force onto their kids most likely came from men 🤷🏼♀️"
@DaringSprinter that’s the problem though. The “manly man, take care of the wife financially and don’t have feelings” type way back then was the only socially “acceptable” way to be. And it was so important back then to be that way that it’s still harming everyone now. I mean, the fact that I still get people telling me that as a woman, I should have kids whether I want them or not, or men telling me I need to smile more or the fact that there are still men telling me that I need to cook for my man and please him when he wants it, all have to do with toxic masculinity as well.
It’s actually something people need to acknowledge more. It does exist and it’s harmful for everyone. Some won’t agree but that doesn’t make the fact disappear.
But anyways, it seems like people still aren’t ready for this conversation so I’ll appease the crowd and shut up….
@Sheena123: Well, of course toxic masculinity exists. Toxic femininity, too. Toxic gender roles and sexism and—oh, just bunches and gobs of bad, harmful ideas, institutionalized and internalized and does it really matter which "side" came up with however much of them?
Pointing fingers at men going "you're where all this came from, even if women are among those out there repeating the ideas they're still your ideas" seems, well... unhelpful. Isn't it the toxicity we ought to be pointing fingers at, not the people suffering under it? We're all trapped in it and hurting from it, and the people who started it are dead!
I appreciate the work you put into clear two-way communication.
You come to the table with an honest desire to understand as well as to be understood, and the world can benefit from people like that.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
you don’t experience these things, And it affects everyone.
you don’t experience these things,
And it affects everyone.
If it affects everyone, how is it possible that I don't experience it?
That’s a dad, a step dad, two brothers, 4 cousins and about 2 dozen friends. And don’t forget 3 years of cuddling almost solely men. I hear non stop stories of what men experience thanks to toxic masculinity
Look, I won't say the things you describe never happen; clearly some aspects of what you describe as "toxic masculinity" do happen to some degree, but... I mean... I am a man and have obviously known plenty of men, had male friends, male relatives, etc, and I will 100% say that you are taking a pretty minor part of the male experience and presenting it as some universal thing that all men experience and has a massive effect on their life. I am honestly extremely skeptical of the idea that you hear "non stop stories of what men experience thanks to toxic masculinity."
I've also seen this same thing in other aspects of your comments, where you're talking about things in either men's or women's lives as if they're an overarching universal experience, when I know for a fact that they're just not.
Pointing fingers at men going "you're where all this came from, even if women are among those out there repeating the ideas they're still your ideas"
Yeah, this is Internet feminism at its absolute worst. In some people's eyes, women just can't be held responsible for their own ideas and actions.
@JoyfulHeart
You come to the table with an honest desire to understand as well as to be understood
Well that's what she said she did. But what she actually did was assert her claim about men. When men said her claim didn't apply to them, she re-asserted her claim, said "I choose to live in reality and talk about it" (implying that people disagreeing with her don't live in reality), and then exited the conversation saying "people still aren't ready for this conversation."
Sheena believes she knows more about men's experience and lives than men do, and believes that when people disagree with her it's because they're not mentally equipped for the discussion.
Please don't give people credit for having "an honest desire to understand" when they clearly don't.
@Sheena123 has actually stuck up for men and been a champion of not dumping on them. Many of her comments re unsavory Male behavior is based on personal experiences. You cant just keep bringing up that you don't do something or act a certain way therefore its overblown. And comparing the experiences of men to experiences of women when it comes to gender and how the sexes are historically and continue to be treated really is apple's to oranges.
On this site , if you are a guy who sticks up for women and criticizes men for being unhealthy creeps you are accused of white knighting , and on the flipside to that you are called a bully because you dont cry along with men who complain about women and how nobody want to message them back or spend time with them . And the wheels keep spinning and spinning and spinning
@CuddleWho
We only know what she is saying, and cannot be sure we know her motivation. My opinion of her motivation is based on my other interactions with her, which are 100% positive.
@CuddleWho: I don't think it's an aspect of feminism (internet or otherwise) so much as an internalized aspect of harmful gender roles—the concept of men being mostly active and women being mostly acted upon, when we're all both to different degrees that don't depend on our assigned social groups.
We've all been acted upon by these ingrained social norms, and we're all active in what we do as a result.
Speaking as someone who jumps freely from group to group in real life as well as online: it's bad everywhere, and neither group is enforcing toxic norms harder than the other so far as I can tell.
@DaringSprinter Thank you for your well-expressed perspective. You have my respect.
If a woman is not directly accusing you of anything, why does it matter what they think? If they want to say, "All men are pigs." Prove yourself otherwise.
@Mike403 because it’s sexist for one thing. It’s not anyone else’s responsibility to prove them wrong. It’s their responsibility to evolve.
@MrMarkAndrew It's our responsibility to evolve too. Doing so can often be painful, but it's worthwhile.