@OnTheJourney - Taking the money and canceling without refunding it is commonly known as scamming.
Omgosh... Thank you @OnTheJourney Very eloquent.
@CuddleDuncan 😂😂😂
which in my young day was spelt "stormed off in a huff".
One other interesting thing to note.... The OP is extremely new and has no karma himself. As an ENTHUSIAST that would already be something challenging to navigate. There is an air about newbies that makes people (both genders) a bit hesitant with those first few meets. Also the OP said the pro had quite a bit of karma... therefore at LEAST there was some experience with connecting. Like @Rezz mentioned, if she was constantly FLAKY it would've probably come up multiple times before.
As has been stated, the karma system isn't perfect, but it is what we have to work with and its our job as the user to know the rules and the risks.
Also, I'm pretty sure the Pro had screenshots, so that it wasn't just a simple he said/she said situation.
And I'm sorry, and not to directly impune the OP, but no one here is owed a cuddle! I don't care if you paid $5000 per minute and she nopes out 15 seconds into it. Or if you prepaid half and drove to Poughkeepsie and she canceled an hour before. What's the expected outcome here? Force the person to go and cuddle as agreed? Pro's are human beings and because they receive money doesn't make them some form of property or chattel.
If people couldn't expect contracts for services to be upheld or for some type of recourse if not upheld, commerce would effectively end and civilization would likely collapse. But the time for having the meeting of the minds and negotiating for compensation of the customer's lost opportunity costs in the case of cancellation was before entering into the agreement. On the same token, negotiating oil massage should have also happened at the time of negotiation (plus not at all on this website). Oh, and noping out of a cuddle 15 seconds into it without a very good reason and keeping the $5000 is just plain fraud.
It's honestly pretty insulting to the plight of slaves past and present to insinuate that it is equivalent to chattel slavery if free people getting paid to provide services can't breach contracts with total impunity.
@zerocantaloupe: Well said.
Thats crazy.
Knew from the first post he wasn’t telling the whole story
I don't think the INGSOC (Nazi) and image of Big Brother (Hitler) is anything but trollish. There's a lot of misogyny underlying his posts and I think this was all calculated. I don't believe he was ever bothered by anything that happened. He just, like any troll, wants to get a response.
@zerocantaloupe
I don't believe I expressed myself clearly enough with respect to a Pro leaving with the money. The Pro has every right to leave 15 seconds in, if they feel creeped out or in danger. In this case, technically the purchaser was in breach (ie: "hot oil"). However, the recourse doesn't matter, the punishment doesn't matter, the sites rules or any personal agreements made do not matter in those 15 seconds. The Cuddler must be able to protect themselves and have full bodily autonomy at all times.
Hence, the comparison to chattel is accurate in so much as the cuddler being owned for that period of time or simply if the cuddler is in fear of not having a safety net for their job on here if they leave an unsafe situation. So, they stay against their better judgment.
Any time there's a human intimacy level of service, massage, physical therapy, sex work, etc. the provider is the sole arbiter on what is safe for them, how to engage and when to end the session. The world of commerce functions differently in these respects and should fear no collapse from this sector having those ingrained protections.
@OnTheJourney When I hear the c-word (chattel), my mind produces images of:
This is why it strikes a chord with me to compare it to having someone be held accountable to their end of a legally-conscionable contract made freely in good faith by both parties. And especially when that word is used to defend outright fraudulent practices. It is trivializing thousands of years of unbelievable human suffering.
It would really help if members would read the Terms of Service and, if they are hiring a pro, the Client Contract. They spell out what the rules are. I don’t expect everyone to remember everything but reviewing them now and then is a good idea.
The forums are an excellent way to get to know people. I’m afraid the OP’s post may have backfired. Rather than garnering sympathy, they are probably now on a few people’s “do not cuddle” list. As for the massage - I would suggest they book an appointment with a massage therapist.
@Babichev haha regarding your last point, that’s what I don’t get. Why not seek out a professional massage therapist if you want a massage? It’s just baffling to me.
@Babichev I agree. Also, while the OP may have had some legitimate points in there somewhere, I don't expect rational truth from writings clearly made in an irrational state. Kinda like how I don't expect to get an airtight sophisticated mathematical proof out of someone's angry manifesto, even though it's technically possible.
Again, I'm not sure I'm being clear enough here.
I'm not against anyone being held accountable. My point is that accountability or redress of grievances does not extend to access to a person's body. If the person is made to feel they have no other choice but to comply, I'm not sure what else to call that. Paying to have dominion over someone else's body is a slavish construct.
And just so I'm 100% clear, what exactly do you mean by saying, "And especially when that word is used to defend outright fraudulent practices..."
What was the fraudulent practice I'm supposedly defending? My point is, no matter what, either party can end the session to protect themselves. Otherwise, there's too much risk involved in this system.
I don't see any fraud in this situation and the system of checks, balances, and common sense worked just fine.
Again, if I was not clear, that's on me.
I agree with @OnTheJourney Great point!
What was the fraudulent practice I'm supposedly defending?
The hypothetical of being able to accept $5000, start a cuddle session, and then leave after 15 seconds for no reason, with the only recourse being eventually found out on the site and banned. This was the original representation of the hypothetical situation from Page 2, but it has subtly morphed into "if the pro feels unsafe" over time.
Even for the "if the pro feels unsafe" condition, in contract law, this definition of cuddling would be called an illusory promise. It's the same as writing "I'll give you five dollars if I feel like it" in a contract. The conditions of leaving without refunding some or all the money need to be clearly defined for the contract to be enforceable.
If, for a set of activities, society legitimately considers it equivalent to the horrors of slavery to expect services rendered or a refund without clearly-defined reasons for this not happening, then it should not be legal to make a contract for those activities.
The only reason these “contracts” on this site have worked so far is because people generally play nice, and the dollar amounts are lower than what it’s worth to go to even small-claims court. But a pro tries to cheat me out of $5000? They should expect a summons.
I'm not sure how to make myself any clearer.
And please stop with the insinuating comments that I somehow make light of slavery in any form.
@zerocantaloupe Well said and logically expressed. On another note, there are pros who advertise on this site who incorporate massage into their sessions. Hopefully we’re not impugning their reputations with some of this conjecture 🙏🏿
Why is this thread still open? The premise is faulty, why not lock it?
@Momoo it hasn't been locked for two reasons. Firstly, even with a faulty premise a thread may still produce an interesting and worthwhile conversation. And secondly, to disprove the OP's false claim that a thread criticising moderators will inevitably be locked or deleted.
Or to put it another way, the thread hasn't been locked because there is no particular reason to lock it
@SammyG_ as a secondary part of the session, inexpert massage over the clothes (or on usually unclothed areas such as hands or head) is permitted. Massage on the skin (i.e. with oil) is not permitted.
In some jurisdictions, such as the USA, massage is a regulated profession and offering massage without the requisite qualifications may be some kind of offence. Additionally, offering cuddling as part of a massage session is likely to get the practitioner struck off their professional register.
Quite a muddy thread...It seems that, if all parties are to be believed, every party made a mistake; the client for asking for oil massage, the pro by not giving ample notice, and the mod who didn't inform the client why his karma rating was ultimately deleted. Morally speaking, neither mistake validates any other and all should be acknowledged and accounted for.
One specific point that I think is worth mentioning is that the reason the pro gave was not a great reason for canceling (lack of other clients to justify the travel). OP is correct on that. The things people do when they are scared of someone’s anger often make things complicated. I would expect a pro facing this situation who actually wants to cuddle with me to see if I can pay a higher travel fee, perhaps, or just make the trip as agreed because it’s a three-hour cuddle, or have warned me earlier that that might happen, as the OP suggested; that part is reasonable! A pro who actually wants to cuddle the client might also apologize and bring up the possibility of a discount on a future session, i.e. take responsibility. It’s probably always better for a pro who is not comfortable cuddling the client to say they are not comfortable and leave it at that. Whether it makes someone more angry or less angry to hear that isn’t the point, it’s the truth, and in general I think giving people more bullshit leads to more anger floating around, and less bullshit leads to less.
I’m glad there is a clear policy on what Karma is and isn’t for. At the risk of sounding like I’m siding with the OP, which I am not, it sounds like the OP was hoping for some kind of financial recourse and did not understand how the mod’s action was helpful or appropriate. Removing the Karma he left was correct, according to the policy. I don’t know what to make of the oil massage thing. I feel like the mod should not have shared that with all of us even under these circumstances, but knowing that that request was made and the pro felt pressured, and knowing that it’s possible the OP fully knew this was an inappropriate request, I hope it was explained to the OP that this request was inappropriate, and in any case the answer was no.
Even people we might call creeps with anger issues deserve clear feedback and explanations.
Maybe there should be a button or a stock message for the case where the pro is “not comfortable” continuing, if there isn’t. Which makes it clear the mods will support their decision on those grounds, and there won’t be any recourse (discount on a future session doesn’t work). I don’t know.
@frankparker9 Very well said.
@frankparker9
I don’t know what to make of the oil massage thing. I feel like the mod should not have shared that with all of us even under these circumstances, but knowing that that request was made and the pro felt pressured, and knowing that it’s possible the OP fully knew this was an inappropriate request, I hope it was explained to the OP that this request was inappropriate, and in any case the answer was no.
I'd argue that if OP is making public accusations, the accused gets an opportunity to give their side of the story even if it's potentially embarrassing to OP. If you want discretion, use official channels (DM the admins) or go to court.
The OP lied about the reason Even after I canceled at 7am for a 10pm meeting he wanted to fly to Denver the next week and get a hot oil massage in exchange for not trashing me in karma. The reason I cancelled was because I messed up the dates on my plane ticket. It was a cheap ticket but I couldn’t afford to replace it. The mods took the right action. I was under no contract to buy another (more pricy) ticket simply to cuddle him. I had around 15 bookings when I canceled. If anything my mistake cost me. Not only the chance to see AZ but to cuddle with some cool people. Also, I’ve never had a mod remove karma good or bad from my profile before.The OP was out of line. He even stalked the flights out of AZ. . So please, please, take the mods and my word for it. They read the messages he sent. The op messages were horrible. Shakes (mod) even says in his post the OP lied through his teeth. There was no money exchanged and even by the OPs own time line of when he says the session was supposed to be when he made the post STILL would have been hours notice. It was a cancelation as soon as I knew I couldn’t make it AND the four others I canceled with for that date and the ones for the next dates did not write horrible reviews and make mean references. They were kind and I apologized profusely. I am sorry I didn’t get to go but I couldn’t afford to get another ticket. I really am not trying to be a bad person. I wanted to go. It didn’t work out that way. I’ve been trying not to get involved because I don’t want to linger on this but I care enough about this community to give you the info you don’t have. I have screen shots but I’m not sure if I’m allowed to post it. I usually never offer up screen shots of what was said to me but if that’s what it takes to settle this. The OP had plenty of notice, he stalked the flights, he wanted to meet in Denver and get an oil massage to keep my karma good.
One specific point that I think is worth mentioning is that the reason the pro gave was not a great reason for canceling (lack of other clients to justify the travel). OP is correct on that.. I would expect a pro facing this situation who actually wants to cuddle with me to see if I can pay a higher travel fee, perhaps, or just make the trip as agreed because it’s a three-hour cuddle, or have warned me earlier that that might happen, as the OP suggested; that part is reasonable!
I'm sorry, what? If I'm not making money, I'm not completing the travel. The entire point of traveling is to make money and maybe sightsee if time and the energy permits. However, if I can be home taking other clients and working on my primary source of income, I will. You can either wait for my next trip or even better, allow me to recommend a pro in your area.
As much as I adore my clients, I have bills. Those bills don't get paid by spending money hoping to make money. Travel is expensive and if the pro was flying ( just using this as an example) that's $100-300+ just for airfare. That doesn't include our 15% cut to CC , hotels, Ubers, car rental, food which can easily rack up to hundreds of dollars. Save your money and book someone closer or ask to reschedule during her next visit. If she says she can't afford it, she can't afford it.
It should be common sense to check in with your pro the night before or preferbly the day of to ensure the session is still a green light, if she doesn't do it herself. Many of us have full time jobs, kids, spouses , families outside of the site. Emergencies arise. Babysitters are no shows. Cars do break down. So being mentally prepared that a cancellation is a possibility helps with the ultimate disappointment should it happen.
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@Babichev @Sideon @Shake49 can I ask for the thread to be locked now? This is making me super anxious. I think everything has been said and you are not the ones wanting this thread locked. Maybe give some people time to respond to the last things said? I posted above my reasoning, the truth and the screen shot. The info he gave was fictitious.
You're seriously underestimating the mental stability of people here. By a long shot. They can be extremely vindictive and straight up stalk us to a disturbing degree. Some people are not equipped to handle any rejection. There have been two pros kidnapped that I know of. Imagine how many are too scared to come forward. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Women will use whatever safety precautions they need to feel safe from potential predators. If that means lying about why she's cancelling. Then by all means that's her prerogative.
Experiencing it first hand myself. This weird moderator is obsessed with me and is trying to report me for sending my number without booking. I havnt done that at all. First she reports my photo and now that. She is insane lol