I want to address language

ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes
in General

While i am sensitive to how people are treated in many instances. I am also aware of perspectives and how communicating is often a flawed practice. I am a man, i recognize the abhorrent behavior that men have in many instances. I am also a man and have experienced very disturbing behavior from women.

What i want to address is the language we use when addressing the issues we have with people. I absolutely hate the way males in the manosphere (the red pill people) address women. But i also recognize often times the language used is in response to the language used against them. What I’m saying is irresponsible conversation gets irresponsible response.

We use language like most or all when referring to the small number of interactions we have. None of us have interacted with a good sample size of anyone or anything. But out declarations appear to claim some sort of subject matter expertise.

Sometimes the extreme talk isn’t intended but it’s how it’s received by me and clearly many others. I’m saying this and attempting to see it from both sides because both men and women do the same type of talk.

So let’s use better language as not to have others on the defense.

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Comments

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    I think the problem with this train of thoughts is that you're forgetting all the nuance in the situation. For instance when women are using extreme language it is about very real, very life or death threats. So saying not all men will rape and murder you doesn't help when half or a quarter or whatever the statistics are that will do those things.

    When men are using this language it carries the weight of the above AND they're just having hurt feelings.

    They aren't the same.
    They will never be the same.
    Trivializing women's experiences to the same as men's is not right or fair.
    AND saying men are just lashing back against the mean words someone said just further proves the points being made against them.

    With all that said ... I like men. I don't think all of them will harm me maliciously. I don't think we should bash all men. But it doesn't make all men safe, kind or deserving of respect 🤷‍♀️

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    I’m not attempting to trivialize anyone’s experience, that’s why i didn’t specify any type of behavior. But the way the language used toward these subjects is weakening any hopes of correction. People tend to dig there heels into a position and that diminishes any hope of understanding.

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    I understand that to a point. But you also have to think about historically how change is made... radicalism. It's necessary for women to stop diminishing their standpoint for men's comfort. Discomfort is necessary for growth and change.

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    But to correctly address the issue isn’t diminishing, i think to overstate a potty ion if an argument is diminishing the isssue, or at the very least raise a point for argument of the issue.

    Unless we are talking from sort of political perspective and the purpose of the language is to show clear divide. Outside of that we should attempt to accurately communicate our issue. That’s all I’m saying, but thanks for your perspective i am considering it.

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    The problem with that thought process is that it assumes these thought patterns are not a societal issue. You're assuming that people aren't coming into the conversation with thought processes that support the societal situation. And we all know that isn't true. On both sides. Meaning each convo you have IS about a societal issue and IS a big convo. It's the nature of the beast.

  • MarkBPhxMarkBPhx

    @BashfulLoner , @Sashamcgee important conversation! Thank you both for sharing your perspectives.

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    I’d like to add that as an example, women have been constantly told all our lives to act or speak in a certain way to make the man comfortable. If we are hit on, let them down easily. If a man compliments us (no matter if it’s an innocent “you’re beautiful” or something derogatory), we are told to understand that he’s “just being nice”, and accept the compliment, and if they do something for us unsolicited that we should give a specific something back to them. Aka: they took us out for a meal, we owe them our body in some way.

    This has been a woman’s way of life since the dawn of time so of course it seems off putting and annoying to a lot of ppl when specific ppl like myself are constantly spouting the same stuff “men hurt women more”, because we are finally stepping up. We are constantly being told to shut up, or be nice, or try to understand the mens side or “say what you have to say but quietly and more polite”. We have been! We have been constantly trying to turn down men nicely, we’ve been trying to tell a man as politely as possible that we don’t want to be cat called or hurt, and we’ve been saying we don’t own men anything just because they bought us a meal. We’ve been saying it as nicely as we can and we still get raped, beaten, insulted and berated in front of crowds.

    If what I say hurts you or makes you feel like you need to defend yourself as opposed to understanding that women are tired of being told to “be nice to the boys” and understanding where are upfront behaviour is coming from, that’s more on you than anyone else.

    I’m done being nice about this. Either understand that every 1 out of 4 women is sexually assaulted and it sucks or leave…. This isn’t a “the bad just stands out from the good” kind of thing. This ain’t a “you just pay more attention to the negative, I bet more men are nice to you as opposed to bad” kind of thing. I’m constantly saying how it truly absolutely irrefutably is almost all men in our lives that act like this. This is the majority. It’s sucks and we’re tired.

    I hold dear all the men in my life that are respectful, amazing and kind. I have a special place in my heart for the men who see me as a human with feelings. They make my world go round, honestly. When I spout off all this stuff that pisses off a specific crowd, these important men in my life automatically no they aren’t included in it. If you feel offended, that’s on you.

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    Broad generalizations condemning any group of people only says something about the writer. While it would be great if people chose their words more thoughtfully, I doubt this type of sexism will go away during our lifetime. The women who will cuddle you will pay no mind to broad negative language. It is unfortunate that negative experiences are so prevalent, but I think we're in a niche funnel where it's to be expected that creeps and cons of every gender will come to prey and capitalize. We just need to go out with eyes wide open and invest our energy in the genuine ones. I've found quite a lot of them, here. 😊

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

  • cuddleintexascuddleintexas

    This little debate has been ongoing for thousands of years. You are fooling yourself to think it won't go for a thousand more.

  • [Deleted User]natickben (deleted user)

    As a white, straight, cisgender American man, I can say with some certainty that this is not a “both sides” issue. We-people like me-hold the social power. That’s the patriarchy. The la gauge you describe aimed at men is a reaction to patriarchy. Our response to that in the terms the OP describes is a symptom and perpetuation of patriarchy.

    That is not to say that men are not victims of patriarchal thinking. We’re conditioned to act and behave in ways that are ultimately self-destructive. But to blame our gendered behavior on women is not the way to go with it. In my opinion.

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    @natickben 👏👏👏 exactly! The patriarchy hurts us all for sure!!

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    I’m sorry if my statements were leading to anyone receiving them as i want to feel comfortable. I don’t believe anyone should feel comfortable in the wake of bad behavior. I know based on the comparison i likely made led us on this path. I’m really only talking about words and how they are used and received. I was trying to point out how the language skews the conversation. It leads to one side of the conversation to not truly listen. That’s all. My bad.

  • teddybear888teddybear888

    Gender ratio in the World

    As of 2021, There are 3,970,238,390 or 3,970 million or 3.97 billion males in the world, representing 50.42% of the world population. The population of females in the world is estimated at 3,904,727,342 or 3,905 million or 3.905 billion, representing 49.58% of the world population.

    In my personal life I imagine I’ve met, interacted or in some way have connection to less than 10,000 people at the most. Consider that, please. In a world of billions, we each have only interacted with a fraction in all of humanity.

    While none of us ought to ever allow or initiate the marginalizing of our or others experience it is wise to keep perspective. It’s a big world out there. Be kind. There is good. There is bad. Try for the good & err on side of being better. We will have the fools, the errant, the rare individuals who want to do bad. Don’t let it keep you from seeking, being, & knowing the good.

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    @BashfulLoner 💜💜💜 I appreciate your willingness to hear the other side.

  • GibstackGibstack
    edited December 2022

    I've used the term "most" or "many", in quotes from women that I've read or heard from, who have used "most" in their own descriptions of their interactions with men, and people have gotten upset at me for using those words. So I don't really know what I'm supposed to say if I'm going to ever say something about it. I cannot use my own experiences, and I don't know whether or not "most" actually means "most" or a small number of bad, outlying experiences. I either have to modify what I quote, say language that is "wrong" and get backlash for it, or not say anything at all.

    Then again, it's important to consider the source of backlash, and in that instance, many of the individuals on the thread I'm thinking of were men. I received a few positive messages - from men and women alike, who absolutely did NOT want to engage with some of what was going on in the public forum - who appreciated me talking about it anyway.

  • LovelightLovelight

    I don't think people who are insulting and overgeneralizing any group of people are being all that helpful in fighting the issues that are going on. While I can understand why a victim may go to the other extreme, I think that can do more harm than good and be self destructive. Cause then said person could be fearing all men or going in with the energy that (all) men or women are x.

    If saying something like "women are x" is hurtful, then I don't think it's okay to say something like "men are x". Or broadly talking about them negatively. Cause the predators are still gonna prey no matter how much they are shamed or know full well what they are doing is unacceptable.

    If the push back is towards the enemies, then that's something that needs to be done. However speaking in a manner that comes off indiscriminately is to me not conducive to success in reducing such issues. Such an approach can leave people who could have genuinely connected divided and further pushing each other away. A man who is making disparaging comments about women doesn't make me feel like "poor victim, I think he needs a hug and it's just what he's been through that makes him act that way towards women." Even if I understand that his environment or experiences shapped him as such, I'd not excuse his toxic behavior towards women and I don't see why I'd feel any different if it's a woman doing that to men or vice versa.

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    This thread is a prime example of how when people take a side they stop listening. The reaction to the OP is about something completely different than the OP. Aside a few that actually wanted to address the post it seems we got stuck in the same old conversation i was hoping to avoid.

  • jplemmonjplemmon

    What's ironic to me is that the bad apples (male or female) are pretty much absent from the forums. Hence, the only people reading "most men" or "most women" are likely not the problem. Hence, no good is actually being done and breath is being wasted.

  • cudbud64cudbud64

    @jplemmon you'd be surprised how many lurkers read the forums. I was a lurker for over a year before really starting to engage 🙂

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    @jplemmon Indeed, those who need to read it are certainly not the type to read it. 😆 @cudbud64 is legit though, tons of peeps lurk...I just doubt that the sleazy ones bother reading threads of depth. 😖

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee

    I think we’re all forgetting what sexual predation often looks like. It’s often men who think what they’re doing is perfectly fine and their peers or society condoning the behaviors. Yea, there are some who are fully aware it’s wrong and do it anyways, but that’s not often the case. The man who raped me 10000% thought it was acceptable, and at least half of the people in our social circles thought his behavior was acceptable, that I was “asking for it”, and they supported him. Changed their Facebook profile pics to photos with him to “show support”. Even when he admitted, in writing, that he knew I said “no”. Even women were saying it was my fault and that I had asked for it.

    Another friend of mine was raped by a friend of hers. He was very popular. People villainized her when she spoke up about being raped, and they stopped being her friend. They thought his behavior was fine.

    When so much of this behavior is supported by society, then you DO need to call it out on a larger, general scale. Folks who think they’re “good people” support this behavior all the time. Don’t push back on the generalization—it’s a valid one based on numbers and statistics for sexual violence.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup

    @bobadevotee Wow, I'm so sorry to hear about this, it's truly heartbreaking to hear.

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee

    @sunnysideup it isn’t uncommon, and it’s been the reality for women throughout most of human history. Basically what @Sheena123 said about this is a larger issue. Men do hurt women more.

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    @bobadevotee I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. I don’t mind sharing here my experiences as well. To put it short: I was sexually assaulted by a male babysitter when I was two, constantly cat called and sexually harassed growing up by fully grown ass men and I was married for 7 years with a husband who continually raped me.

    My sister was sexually assaulted multiple times and physically abused by a boyfriend.

    My mother was physically abused by a few men and constantly sexually assaulted anytime she went out for karaoke.

    These are just close family members. This doesn’t even count any of my friends and not as close relatives.

    This really is something that needs to be recognized as something that happens way much more to women. It needs to be noticed and recognized. And talked about. Period.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup
    edited December 2022

    I hope all these people are rotting in prison, or worst.

    @Sheena123 that’s so hurtful to hear :(

  • [Deleted User]BryanKC (deleted user)
    edited December 2022

    Including the military and prisons men are subjects to more SAs than women and these crimes are not included in FBI statistics

  • [Deleted User]MGx27 (deleted user)

    These threads are wild

  • teddybear888teddybear888
    edited December 2022

    Let’s be real here. Men are at risk for rape, extortion & blackmail schemes, robbery, assault, long term abuse & shame attacks, any number of degrading & demoralizing privately & publicly. You don’t think there was ever a man who was roofied? You don’t think there was ever a boy who was attacked ? Boy Scouts? Catholic Church? As Bryan pointed out the military (including a green beret (the elite) assaulted by SEALs) & prisons? Do any of you expect us, actually expect us to believe that men are not also victimized, terrorized, shamed, marginalized, ignored, & destroyed?

    I respect, recognize & regret deeply the horrors experienced & feared by women on daily basis. However, please understand there are also those horrors faced by the male sex too.

    Being really real here, you’d probably think that the offering of overnights would be met with trepidation & disconcerting discombobulation? You’d be right. But, you know what else? What if this person waits until I’ve dozed off & robs me blind? What if her boyfriend or whoever is just outside and waiting to come in and wreck the place & me? What if they plan to work some kind of extortion scheme.

    Don’t laugh. I know those are some wild ideas. Thing is? It’s all been done. It’s all happened. Keeps happening.

    Please understand I in no way am here to marginalize the horrors experienced by women. At all. What I am saying…. What I am intent to bring to attention is that men have threats to deal with too.

    The difference? We’re more pressured to keep our heads down & our mouths shut. Because nobody wants to normalize that someone as imposing as Terry Crews coulda been taken advantage by anyone. Nobody wants to think a green beret would take any crap by anyone. Nobody wants to think about Boy Scouts not being so great or Catholic Church or I could go on.

    Perspective.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited December 2022

    @teddybear888 @BryanKC yep,.men also get assaulted. And guess who the perpetrators primarily typically are? Men ! See you are wanting to make this into a things also happen to men so why are the women complaining argument. The issue is about men being, unfortunately, the perpetrators of assault , and this putting women in a place where they feel a need to speak out and stand up against it and call it out with ferocity and vigor when they see it happen. It doesn't mean that it is any more or less valid to the assault of men . However dont lose site that it is still men who are mostly doing this . The problem isnt who is being assaulted, the problem is that men are assaulting, and your post draws attention to men assaulting men as well .

  • teddybear888teddybear888

    Something else that, frankly, needs to be said.

    How do you think it makes men feel when we are reduced to what the size of our wallets are in order to imaginarily ever so briefly have someone show us affection ?

    Regarded for our hearts, our minds, our souls, our true & total substance. That’s something both sexes crave genuinely. Rightfully so.

    We’re in this together.

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