@Melancholy - The woman who was unable to say "No" out of a conditioned fear is something I'd never heard of or considered before. Thank you for sharing. A good reminder that consent should never be implied.
As for myself, I've never feared being hurt by someone since I was a child, so my own boundaries are a subject I've not needed to think about. I've heard stories of female cuddlers, even pros, who have pushed for, shall we say, greater intimacy, but have not experienced this firsthand.
@Parad0x I've never been that way, but it is not uncommon for many women to be unable to say no out of conditioned fear.
I'm glad that was mentioned. I feel many men may not be aware of that.
@stormydaycuddle A lot of human behavior can be explained by evolutionary pressures and how genes will express themselves differently based on sex. Both men and women carry most of the same genes. The genes will alter behavior to maximize survivability. That means that when the organism is male it will prefer behavior that means maximizing sexual experiences because that gives you the highest chance of passing on genes.
Women need to have a different strategy because they obviously can only have so many pregnancies. They want to choose male partners who seem to have good genes and also that will provide resources to help the children succeed. That makes them selective and protective against male sexual aggression.
So you need to start by understanding the base instincts which are basically the same for other animals with the same biological characteristics.
So women don’t need to be taught to be protective of being touched sexually. It’s a basic instinct. Men on the other hand will only react that way if they can find an intellectual reason for doing it; that is one driven by culture.
For example, men might react negatively to such touch if the woman touching them is a close relative or the mate of their friend or if they feel they are being watched and it will anger someone like their wife.
In modern times, culture is much more complex. So men can have far more complex intellectual reasons for not accepting sexual touch from a woman. They might be religious and feel that it is wrong. They might have a friendship with the woman that they value and feel that this might introduce destructive elements into the relationship. They might feel that sexual feelings interrupt or interfere with other positive feelings that they get from platonic touch. They might fear getting reported to a website etc.
So the reason why men often don’t feel strongly about having their own boundaries is that, unlike women, there is no natural instinct to feel that way and every natural instinct to feel the opposite.
For women it can feel like someone is taking something from you and for men it feels like someone is giving you something for free because from a biological perspective, that is exactly what is happening. A man therefore has to have a more complex rationalization for having boundaries and also the willpower to stick with those rationalizations against base instincts.
So, no, I’m not saying that men should act like cavemen. Men should act like modern human beings in a far more complex culture. But at the same time we are essentially still the same basic creatures and the only thing separating us from them is a thin veil called inherited culture.
You can make a perfectly fine intellectual argument why people on this site should stick with the rules of the community and keep it platonic. Those are cultural rules. But when women ask with confusion why this seems to be so much harder for men, it’s worth explaining the situation from a rational biological angle. It’s easier for women not because they are morally superior and better able to overcome base instincts. It’s because their base instincts are aligned in the same direction and generally don’t need to be overcome to begin with.
Obviously not everyone is the same. They don’t have identical genes, identical hormones, identical upbringing etc. These statements about sex are generalizations but largely will fit most people of the sex. You will still find sexually aggressive women and men with little such drive and firm boundaries but that doesn’t negate the basic evolutionary logic that has been around since the dawn of mammals.
@dave31415 Well said and I totally agree.
@dave31415 - I have one little quibble. You said "Both men and women carry most of the same genes. The genes will alter behavior to maximize survivability." That is true for females, but not for males. In males, the genes will alter both behavior and appearance to maximize reproduction. In a great many instances, that gene alteration will actually reduce survivability. As a prime example, look at the peacock.
"I haven't got anything against the birds. Consider the lilies."
@dave31415 and @GreatHornedOwl - I know you can read. Now listen carefully. Get on topic, quit your quibbling and intellectual chest-beating on this thread. I'm happy to administer a round of forum timeouts if you'd rather go that way and not heed my warnings.
@stormydaycuddle
As I say to myself, “there are no strings on me”…
I think it’s apt in this particular circumstance.
@dave31415 and @GreatHornedOwl These are all things we learned in Biology 101. In addition there are biochemical reasons such as the ratios of hormones that have to be considered. However, the reason the biology explanation is distasteful to many women is that historically it has been used as “excuses” for rape in the justice system. In some areas of the world it is still very prevalent. The look at the way she dressed, what was the poor man to do argument. And when it appears on a thread about boundaries, then the optics to a female are much different than they are to you. Sexual assault and rape are real threats to women and have more to do with self-preservation and fear and a dissertation on genetics and the sources of a man’s biological urges while accurate, does nothing but raise women’s apprehension of men through what is perceived as a tired old excuse.
Moreover, religions have used that biological explanation within patriarchal constructs to “protect” women by dictating clothing, responsibilities and rights to their bodies. This one shouldn’t take too much consideration to think of examples of it. Loose women can be executed but a man taking multiple wives was once thought of as a success. Still is in some areas of the world.
So your biological explanations are accurate, but within the arena of boundaries and consent, they are a bit tone deaf. Too much testosterone in the body can be attributed to violent tendencies but one wouldn’t proffer that information at a Holocaust museum.
So I get what you are saying, and you are most definitely accurate scientifically, but think of the situational context.
I've pushed back, stopped things etc. because that's not why they're cuddling and I never want someone to think that they need to get just business. But my situation I think is unusual, though I'm not sure exactly how unusual it is. I live with my female best friend. It's platonic, neither of us have attempted to cross that line for various reasons. But we're EXTREMELY comfortable with each other. We walk around the house with minimal, if any, clothing. Sometimes we've cuddled like that. You have no idea how many mundane, normal conversations I've had with her while she's changing her tampon right in front me. She'll literally walk in on me "handling" myself, pay absolutely zero attention to it, and start having a normal conversation. We act the same alone as we do when the others home.
Basically I'm used to being very open, and it's easy to switch off the sexual side of things, at least for me it is. But given that it's hard for me to create personal boundaries as I simply don't care. My boundaries are what the other persons boundaries are and what I find ethical. I'd feel very upset if I found out someone did something they didn't genuinely want to do for their own sake.
@I_Am_Not_A_Cat I love your explanation. Especially the last sentence. I think I can sum up what you are saying as basically “I am an open person within the boundaries of consent.” I feel the same. Sometimes you don’t know you have a particular boundary until you are in the moment.
@Sideon - It appears that there is more than one understanding of what the topic of this thread actually is.
The op's initial post appeared to me, to be bemoaning the fact that men (in general) don't appear to have any boundaries. She said "I'm getting saddened and jaded by the sense that of the 'two' of us, I'm the only one setting boundaries." She also stated "Last week I was told verbatim, 'You can do whatever, I don't have any boundaries.' My sarcastic reply was, 'Oh, so I can molest you right here?' No response but a laugh. She appears not to realize that a man's boundaries may be so much broader than her own, that might not ever notice them
It appears to me, that any explanation of why men may appear to have no boundaries, would not be off topic, but are well within the scope of what this thread is about. Furthermore, what might appear to be quibbles over apparently insignificant details, are actually discussions of important differences in understanding of the topic.
It's hard for me to see this polite discussion to be more off topic than perhaps seven posts about cottage cheese in a topic about First Messages. The difference is that this is a serious discussion, whereas the other is completely frivolous.
@theidea I'm so sorry that happened to you. I would encourage you to report it; it is highly unlikely that you were the only victim, so it's doubtful she would pin it on you. Even if she does, what would the repercussions be?
@natickben I like that you verbalize that it's platonic. It seems a lot of people just want to dive into a cuddle without having any kind of awkward "talk", but I think it's important that there be a talk, and that it not be awkward, but flow openly and with the intent that both people get what they want and nothing that they don't want out of a cuddle.
@Melancholy posted: "what she's found is that MOST men will do much more than you're supposed to as long as the woman doesn't say no." That is sort of what prompted me to start this thread, and why I was hoping to hear from men who actually do have boundaries and are not of that persuasion.
@tacpmurg posted: "There have been a few who have asked things that honestly make my jaw drop and I have yet to learn how to properly let them know "thats kinda way out of bounds"." It can be really difficult to react in the moment. I try my hardest to just take a breath. Then respond. I know it's our natural reaction to just answer whether we feel comfortable or not, but if you can remember to take that breath, it can give you the moment of clarity needed to say, "I prefer to stay away from topics like that, but I appreciate your openness." Then change the subject.
@MegaSnugglez posted: "I assume as two adults we both understand what the word platonic means" I thought this until last month, for serious. But someone with a decade or two on me asked in all earnestness, "What does 'platonic' mean?" Do we who know about it think it is as obvious as the stripes on a tiger? 100%. But apparently not everyone does know about this, hard as it is for me to believe. It seems everything must be stated in black and white. "Nothing sexual. No kissing...anywhere!" It shouldn't need to be stated, but here we are.
@Charlie_Bear posted: "maybe they don’t want their hair felt that day" I love this, thank you, that's so true. I love to start off my cuddles by asking what the other person is in the mood for, which also leads into asking if there's anything they don't want. Of course once you've cuddled with someone a number of times, you get to know what they like, but it's always so nice to give and receive these little checks. @Charlie_Bear posted: "telling someone no is something we need to work on because it’s not fair to put those that do ask for consent in a position where consent appears to be given when internally it’s not." This is very true and I am working on this, personally. I've learned there are many nuances to how they ask, how I'm feeling, and how I answer. I am excited that with more cuddles will come more opportunities to learn and grow in this aspect so that I can be a better communicator and my cuddle partners can trust me, my reactions and my words.
~ Sunset Snuggles
Boundaries are more than just rules people follow in a civilized society. Boundaries are a way that you communicate to others how you expect to be treated. I have boundaries regarding touch - depending on the circumstances and I also have lots of other boundaries. I only allow certain kinds of relationships dynamics into my life. I don’t tolerate codependent or enabling behavior. I don’t tolerate people who are racist or make rude comments, etc. I will extract myself from situations that violate my boundaries. The same holds true for touch.
@SunsetSnuggles - After four pages of discussion, I think that I can now give you a simple answer.
If you and I were to meet to cuddle, we would begin with you giving me a complete understanding of your boundaries, and me both agreeing, and intending to complying with them. I would further understand that if you were to even stay close to complying with your own boundaries, than you won't come near to violating mine. Thus, bothering to explain my boundaries to you would be a needless wast of time.
That I haven't explained my boundaries to you, might lead you to conclude that I don't have any, but that conclusion would be incorrect.
@Sideon
I found @dave31415 's long post and @FunCartel 's response among the best discussion I've read here.
I found your attitude and tone lacking. This is an adult site, not preschool day care
@Sideon You’ve got to be kidding me! Don’t lump me in with anyone. Judge me on MY words. You can’t censor me because you don’t agree with my point. I didn’t remotely insult anyone or bicker as you say. Please read what I wrote again. If people called me names or said insulting things to me that isn’t me bickering. I’d think you’d know that I never say rude things to people even when they attack me. Please be more careful before you make threats of blocking people on the forum. It’s not a good look.
When mods enter threads it is because 90% of the time the post has been tagged. In these instance on this thread, both men and women, Pros and enthusiasts, have flagged various posts by @GreatHornedOwl and @dave31415 . The back and forth, the "bickering" is to what I was responding. The heat, the number of flags was increasing and I gotta say I'm working, I'm responding on my cell phone, and I'm skimming. I care deeply that the OPs thread has been overshadowed and hijacked by the back and forth, and if there is validity in respective posts it is lost in the volume of these tickets.
@FunCartel was not flagged, @TigerFan . No, it's not preschool here. If my tone was lacking, I can certainly give more. If you have something to contribute to the OPs thread, I'm all ears. Let's see what you've got. Enlighten us with what boundaries mean to you, as a man. No, I'm not kidding.
@dave31415 - I lumped you into the category of others who had been flagged, not on the content of your posts. I will read and digest your posts later. This weekend. And then I'll respond.
@warm_embrace Yeah. You are right that boundaries are personalized. They aren’t just rules of society. But in this case the cuddle community agrees to accept a minimum set of boundaries. We are not supposed to touch in sexual places even if it doesn’t really bother us personally. So the case of a guy saying they don’t have boundaries can come off as an invitation to touch them in those places. They might not mean that. They may just mean that they don’t have boundaries beyond the obvious ones. So it’s ambiguous at best.
I’ve been asked the question several times and I’ve responded in different ways. Sometimes just say “No I like being touched everywhere except the obvious”. Sometimes just say “No”. If I am with a cuddler who has spent considerable time explaining to me that they are platonic only, I’m not worried they are going to grab my junk. So I mean the same thing but could say it in a different way.
@Sideon I understand. I know it’s tough being an admin especially when there is a lot to read. I did sorta agree with Great Horned Owl without reading it too carefully so probably should have been more careful and nuanced. So I suppose I am guilty of lumping myself in. I’m surprised that someone would flag me. Whoever it is, feel free to right me if you wish. I’d be interested in any feedback. My point is just that it can be hard for men and woman to understand each other because nature made us different on purpose. Perhaps some people don’t care but I’ve always though the evolutionary biology perspective is helpful bringing some understanding about how the other sex can feel so different.
we all share a common ancestor billions of years ago. Since our predecessors were single celled amebas and had none of these urges but developed to have them it doesn’t occur to anyone neural placidity and developmental placidity have a hand in the game? What’s true for one or even several isn’t true for everyone. There is so much evidence. The way our synapses fire has everything to do with our formative years so while yes, evolution favors reproduction it also allows for individual growth on both the neural level and in the nervous system. We have to account for that. You can be born with a gene to have one thing but it doesn’t mean it expresses itself either. This growth changes the way were are wired male and female. Think of it like you have a base set of traits that are true at birth but through plasticity some of these survive and some don’t. The ones that are underdeveloped won’t hold traction anymore. Your experience isn’t everyone’s.
There is a saying we had in grad school: Every argument, if it goes on long enough, degenerates into a debate on Free Will. This is largely true.
Neural placidity isn’t free will. It’s strengthening of synapses that dictate how out physical bodies and minds operate. @dave31415 Im genuinely not sure if that was what you were referring to so I’m not being sassy here.
@stormydaycuddle - As I have been trying to say, we are genetically programmed to behave in a certain way, some of us to a lesser or greater extent. We are also genetically gifted with sufficient intellect to overcome that predisposition, if we want to.
Our bodies and minds don’t stop rewiring us at birth. We are constantly experiencing plasticity as new neural pathways form and others die. The evolution of the singular human body and the way it develops is highly personal. It continues to form and reform your whole life.
I didn't say or imply FunCartel was flagged. I don't care one way or the other.
The fact you are doubling down on your bullying tone does nothing to engender a desire to post as you suggest.
Perhaps stop multitasking so you do a better job of moderation.
Perhaps you shouldn't tell others how to do their jobs. Sid works hard to help protect this site. Don't insult him like this again. [Shake49]
@stormydaycuddle It’s just that you can explain, as I did, that genes for hormones triggered by selected sex try to influence behavior in different ways to further their own selfish goals (the Selfish Gene viewpoint) but, if we are beings with Free Will, can’t we choose to resist our hormones and choose to act however we want? If so, why does it matter at all what hormones are trying to make us do? Who’s the boss here, you or some chemicals?
In practice, just about everyone submits to the idea that we have Free Will, not necessarily because it is obviously true but rather because nothing about the rules and customs of human society make any sense without it.
But we also know that even if we claim to have Free Will, we often fail to make the choices that we think are best to make and that our so called “will power” often flags. So we eat or drink too much or give in to sexual acts when we know we shouldn’t. We often go with what our body feels it wants rather than what our mind decides is best for us. And because we do that and because it often has disastrous consequences, we should try to learn what it is that our bodies feel they want and also what the biological reason behind it might be.
Ah, @TigerFan - You think a drive by, where you're going to publicly tag a mod is going to garner....what exactly? It's called baiting, and it's in the forum rules as a no-no. That means: don't do it, in case you might misunderstand what I said.
I gave you an opportunity to share and get on topic, but you're more interested in calling me a bully. Reread the thread.
In the meantime, since you have no desire to post on the OPs topic, then I can safely assume I don't need to be tagged by you or expect further mansplaining or brilliance here. Crickets, sir. Yes, silence. I have no qualms about assisting you in your endeavors. None, whatsoever, so help you gawd. Have a LOVELY evening reading.
@FunCartel I see your point. I agree that people can take a biological reason for why humans are the way they are and try to twist it into a moral justification. But I didn’t do that. In fact I did the opposite (in a follow-on post). But a biological fact is a fact. If people want to know the reason then it’s never “tone deaf” to tell them, and the OP or some of the early replies asked men what their boundaries are and reason men were often like this. They may find it distasteful all they want, but the truth is still the proper answer when asked. It would tone deaf perhaps if someone was simply expressing frustration and someone launched into an explanation of biological causes but that’s not what is going on in this discussion.
@FunCartel if a man takes multiple wives and got them pregnant then he is still the father, if a woman takes multiple husbands and become pregnant then who is the father?