@GreatHornedOwl No problem. I'm genuinely puzzled. I think a platonic cuddle forum is an appropriate place to bemoan/comment/however you want to say it place to state disappointment, etc. over non-platonic cuddle experience/words. I am not being sarcastic. Also I had already understood your point of previous posts on this thread and found the last additional explanation unnecessary but well-worded and good reading. What can I say? I like to read.
I suspect the OP is a good vetter, which speaks to how much we cannot be too careful here. Vet the h*ll out of people and still be prepared for all possible outcomes. Happy cuddiing
@achetocuddle - Thank you again.
I find it interesting that we have heard nothing from the OP to indicate if she agrees with anything that I've said, or if she completely disagrees. I don't know if she thinks that I've been attempting to hijack her thread, or if she believes that I've been on topic.
@SunsetSnuggles - If you believe that I've been hijacking your thread, then I sincerely apologize, and will stop immediately. If you think that I have not, then I will continue to defend my assertion.
The OP, from what I've seen is generous with giving people room to be themselves as long as they respect her and themselves. Hopefully I have not lessened her thread for her.
@johnai So true that personal experience often colors the opinions that people express, perhaps even more so with publicly expressed opinions. And btw, you have worth! Not meeting an enthusiast to cuddle here or IRL has no bearing on your worth. You are only 26 When I was 26 I was still getting to know myself and discover my worth. As you know yourself better and meet more people you can be able to see your worth more. But what anyone thinks of you can never affect the worthwhile qualities you know you have. Best wishes in all your endeavors. Thank you for sharing yourself with me. I like that stuff!
This is all I will post on this thread. Best wishes to everyone.
Personal attacks shouldn't be allowed
@Melancholy I don’t see a personal attack. I asked you to clarify if my perception of your comment was wrong because it seems like you’re accusing people with boundaries of being disingenuous. So please clarify because right now I’m under the impression that your comment had to do with non platonic behavior. Asking for clarification isn’t a personal attack.
@Melancholy - Just because somebody disagrees with something you said, it doesn't mean that mean that you have been attacked. Perhaps, it's time to take the chip off of you shoulder. If they said that you were stupid, that would be an attack. If they told you to grow up, that would be an attack.
There's a huge difference between attacking you, and attacking what you've said. I haven't seen anybody attacking you.
I am genuinely not attacking anybody on here , if I have made anyone feel that way it is not intentional and apologies
Can we unlock the Boner thread, and go back to that one?
So, I just want to chime in that I observed at least some of the disconnect happening because people are using different definitions for the word "boundaries". This sort of communication issue is why I make a point of having a discussion on definitions of key words preemptively.
The following is how I have learned about the topic from consent workshops within the cuddle, kink, ethical non-monogamy, and k-12 education spheres so it seems fairly consistent to me. Yrmv.
Longish Post
BOUNDARIES within a relationship of any kind are seen as a dividing line that separates one person from another, defining where one ends and the other begins. They dictate how we respond to the other person in order to maintain our own autonomy, safety, and needs. They do NOT dictate the other person's behavior, so they should use "I" instead of "you" statements. Sometimes a boundary is relational only to ourselves, such as needing to swap a habit for a healthier one, or wanting to make better choices to reach a personal goal for self care.
Some folks seem to be equating boundaries with rules. RULES dictate the behavior of others, saying what they must or must not do.
Sometimes boundaries are equated with values. VALUES are the moral goals that we strive to achieve - how we define good vs bad, right vs wrong.
Typically our values inform how we set our boundaries, and our boundaries are how we negotiate rules with others.
Example: Value - touching someone without consent is wrong Boundary - if you touch me without consent, I will give you one warning and then remove myself from the situation if you do so again; or, I will not allow myself to be touched without consent Rule - You are not allowed to touch anyone without consent
Just some food for thought for everyone who has chimed in to express their boundaries. I highly recommend checking out https://www.queersexedcc.com/post/boundaries-101 and https://positivepsychology.com/great-self-care-setting-healthy-boundaries/
When a guy says he doesn't have any boundaries, it can mean that he doesn't have any additional boundaries beyond the rules of this site. Do I have to tell somebody I meet on here not to touch my crotch area? That should be a given. Some people don't like their face touched. That is the kind of thing that should be discussed before a session.
Another point to consider, tangenting off of @Mike403 -
Perhaps some of the discrepancy in levels of communication on boundaries has less to do with men not having boundaries and more to do with the fact that they by and large don't have to communicate their boundaries in our society in order to have their personal space and bodily autonomy respected. Mike is far from the first I've seen in this forum, let alone in the wider world, express that they think it's a given that discussions on boundaries just happen when necessary, and that the rules alone are understood, interpreted the same, and will be followed by everyone to a sufficient degree that no one will violate consent.
The problem is, that is not the lived experience of probably the vast majority of women and femme presenting non-binary folks. For us, we learn the hard way that the rules WILL be tested and pushed to their limit, they will be interpreted for every conceivable loophole, they will be intentionally misunderstood, or just completely ignored in order for (generally) men to get what they want. And so we either learn to set, express, and enforce our boundaries - or we don't and we continually get pushed around outside our comfort zone.
I remember one conversation I had with a partner when I first really started working on my own boundary issues, and as he put it "huh - I never had to consider what I'd do in that situation before." By all means, not all men are lacking awareness and introspection - and a lot of this community is leagues ahead of the general public because the consent work that cuddling lends itself to. But I'd be interested to see statistics on how we compare to say the kink community, who also preach boundaries and consent like a religion.
@mike403 I wonder how if feels being drenched in so much security things are “a given”. I assure you more than a few of men don’t have the good luck. And as for marginalized groups… ha! Nothings a given for anyone. Now, things can be taken for granted by “a few” who have enough good fortune to have such limiting thoughts as “consent is a given” be their reality thus far.
@stormydaycuddle - I don't want to argue. My point is that it doesn't mean it's always a red flag or something because a guy doesn't mention what his boundaries are.
@mike403 not arguing is fine. Sentences one and two of your point were on point the last part was "luck of the draw" ... so far. Now, I'm off for the day. Have a good one Mike. I'm letting it go.
@Mike403 anyone saying something like "um, yeah, just the rules" is a yellow flag to me because it tells me they haven't actually considered what their boundaries are in any meaningful way, or they don't feel comfortable sharing with me which is also a problem that needs to be addressed.
And someone saying they don't have any boundaries, a la the OP example, is a red flag because it screams trauma that is beyond the scope of my expertise, or a complete lack of awareness and introspection that needs to be addressed before any physical contact is made.
@cuddlefaery - I came to this site only because I love giving and receiving hugs. If somebody asked me what my boundaries are, I'd feel stumped and not know how to answer that. Not because my intentions are anything non-admirable. I'm autistic and not really good at communication.
@Mike403 someone's behavior being a red or yellow flag doesn't mean they have bad intentions, it's a way of labeling or describing undesirable or harmful behaviors that are incompatible with our boundaries.
In the examples I gave, a yellow flag means proceed with caution - the cuddler who says their boundaries are "just the rules" and I would have an in-depth discussion to clarify and make sure we are on the same page before proceeding to any physical touch so that there is no ambiguity about consent moving forward.
The red flag is a hard stop. As my background is in education, that is what I tend to lean into, so with the example I gave of the cuddler saying he has no boundaries I would refer him to some vetted resources on what boundaries are (like the two I shared earlier), how to discover your own, how to set them, and then encourage him to seek more personalized assistance from a mental health provider before booking with me again.
Not knowing is not a failure, one can always learn. Being incompatible is not a failure, there's someone who is a better fit out there. Getting pushy, angry, or making excuses are all more problematic.
In the case of you being stumped on what to answer, is it because you don't know what your boundaries would be in that situation, or more you don't know how to communicate them?
@mike403 I've always found your comments to have incredible clarity. I'm not trying to put aside the realities of your condition. You have a tendency to say exactly what you mean, express that you may not be grasping something properly ( which is fine and recognizing it is great) then say you have no desire to fill the gap in your knowledge. Which isn't an autistic trait. So while yes, I am 100% that the reality of your condition must have its personal trials you're using it as a blanket shield. It does a disservice to everyone with autism. It takes many forms with different trials and upsides for everyone who has it. Yes, I see neuro-divergence as a positive thing in a many many ways. It does have its downsides and I'm not attacking you for being neuro-divergent with the struggles you express. I myself am neuro-divergent... what I'm not digging is the utter clarity in summarizing exactly why people take issue with things and relying on the fact that you're autistic to save you from growth. Case in point yesterday: you succinctly summarized why people were offended with what you said then said "I don't want to learn" and then "I'm autistic so you should accept my willful ignorance and the fact that I'm knowingly stirring the pot." All of these things of course aren't verbatim but if you go back and read what was said that was the essence. Please don't assign this type of behavior to autism. Its not fair to everyone else with neuro- divergent brains. To be clear, I am NOT attacking you or the fact that you are autistic. I'm asking you to stop using it as a weapon/shield.
I agree with Mike. When I say that I have no boundaries, I am assuming that the cuddler's boundaries are already going to be mine simply because this is a platonic site. I expect that any area sexual does not need to be repeated. I do have one and that is my feet, but beyond that I will say that I have no boundaries too.
When I say no boundaries, then I simply mean that I have no areas which will make me tense up or get angry or are a problem due to past trauma. I assume this means that I am being asked if there any areas which make me feel unsafe or uncomfortable. As an example, I like face rubs while some people hate having their face touched.
Hence, why I say I have no boundaries....except my feet.
@stormydaycuddle - Yesterday was about tipping being called racist. I'm just tired of everything(it seems) having some negative meaning to it. That's all.
@mike403 I remember yesterday quite clearly. That wasn't all. It was the case in point above that I'm taking issue with. Now, I will respect your wish not to fight but I am asking that you think about what I said. Also, yesterday you were called racist. Why was explained to you. And you said you prefer blinders to trying to change your perspective. When someone asked you to change your mind you replied by using autism as a shield.
@jamesMD things aren't always a given and your feet are a valid boundary as much as anything else. People should respect that. Personally I wear socks when cuddling because I have the same problem. Expectations on what 'should' be are nice... its only a reality thus far. I hope that never changes for you. Just because you've never had to enforce a boundary doesn't mean others haven't. Now while I understand a lot of arguments revolve around "well I wouldn't mind if a woman did it..." what about a man? That happens. What about your worst enemy? A stranger? What about violently? These are all things that should be taken into consideration.
@cuddlefaery - Communicate them. It takes me longer than usual to think of what to say in the forums. Things get awkward in an in-person setting.
@JamesMD boundaries don't have to do with just sexual activity and being touched in certain places.
What about topics you don't wish to discuss? Activities you will not participate in? Is being tickled/scratched a hard no? Places you will not go? Sticking to a strict time schedule vs having a flexible one? Names you do not wish to be called?
Sure, you'll never be able to think of every scenario going in to an interaction, but when you're first working on boundaries those are some good ones to consider that could be applicable to a cuddling session.
And boundaries can shift from day to day, which is why a check in at the start of a session is a good idea. Some are hard and immovable, and others are soft and more flexible. Maybe normally you absolutely hate to talk about your dad and the feel of fingernails, but today you're in the mood to vent and get head scritches so it's a softer boundary you're willing to test.
@stormydaycuddle - I'll make my last an final comment about this topic. I feel that things being considered to be racist further segregates us. It's triggering for me especially hearing claims that tipping(which has been a U.S. custom for a long time) may be racist. I like to think of everyone as be being equal and having equal rights even though I know they probably don't in some instances, but it doesn't change the way the world works by me thinking differently.
@Mike403 an exercise that really helped me (and still helps me with enforcing boundaries on a few difficult people) is writing them out ahead of time, taking time to edit and revise. Feeling more prepared makes it easier to discuss in person for me.
So for instance when I wanted to work on discussing boundaries with a coworker, I wrote them out, crossed a bunch out, rewrote, reordered, etc. for about a week until I had sort of a rough draft cheat sheet I could take with me. It helped a lot and kept me on track. I got some of the ideas from lists online, which sparked ideas to add of my own.
@mike403 that would be a personal view. You're expressing that you are aware it is your own and yet saying it is because your brain works differently. That is accepting your own reality. Once again there is NOTHING wrong with thinking differently but when it comes to autism that is not the type of neuro-divergence attributed to the condition. While everyone's experience is their own that is exactly what you are saying when you say, "I like to think of something one way" that is acceptance. Not cognitive divergence.
@Mike403 I hope what you are getting at is that you personally treat everyone as an equal and see them as having equal rights to you, as opposed to actually believing society treats everyone equally and affords them the same rights. The former is laudable, the latter would be naive. Because there are attitudes and practices in our society that are racist or based on some other kind of prejudice, and the only way start to change those behaviors is to acknowledge them. Acknowledging them does not divide us, it is a way to recognize that they exist so action can be taken to improve the situation.
@WriterGF - Yes. That is exactly what I've been trying to say. I'm willing to learn why racism exists in this country, but not why doing certain things is considered to be racist.
@mike403 then look it up, ask for clarity etc. That is what I take issue with. Being not certain is fine. Yesterday you expressed this then put up blinders when people attempted to explain and asked you to look into it on your own. It is your right. It is not autism preventing you. To be clear this isn't a personal attack. I've found you to be an incredibly empathetic person. Yesterday was not one of those days.
This is already a difficult and tumultuous thread, guys...I'd be super appreciative if we could try to guide it back to the original topic and not let race and personal stuff come into it, more... 🫣🤗 Pretty please?
~ Sunset Snuggles