HR 1865, "FOSTA" and CuddleComfort

Stephen304Stephen304
in General

Due to the small-ish userbase of CuddleComfort, I often use several sites at the same time to discover potential cuddle buddies. One of these is CraigsList, which happens to have just shut down its personals section (not more than a few hours ago), citing HR 1865. (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1865)

Skimming the bill, it appears to be targeting sexual exploitation and/or prostitution, and according to the message that now appears if you try to visit any CraigsList personals section, this bill can cause any website that contains personals to be liable to criminal and civil liabilities should they be "misused". Since prostitution and sex trafficking are obviously against the CraigsList TOS, it would appear that making an attempt to curb such misuse doesn't shield the site from liability.

I am curious whether this impacts CuddleComfort in any way, since this site has the potential to be misused in a similar fashion. Also, I am curious if there are any plans for changes in response to this. Maybe I am wrong to think it would have any impact, as I am not a lawyer, but I am curous to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Comments

  • MarkMark Mod
    edited March 2018

    That's very interesting and presumably needs to be a consideration for every community website.

    I would like to see how other reputable websites respond to this, such as Reddit. Craiglist's dramatic move may prove to be one of the exceptions as you could argue their website is near enough a free-for-all. What's worse is that type of questionable content is a significant part of their website's reputation which subsequently invites more of it.

    One other thought, I may be wrong but I think this law is intended to be used against websites that have shown itself to be legally reckless with their lack of moderation. I wonder what would constitute that in this environment.

  • Stephen304Stephen304

    You have a good point about the repuation and lack of moderation on CraigsList. I was initially pretty shocked to see the entire personals section nuked, since the stricly platonic sections always seemed pretty sanitary. But I suppose there is the risk of the users simply migrating over to whatever section is left. In a similar vein, I wonder if the migrating userbase could cause problems for sites that lack lots of moderating power. I guess that would be one of the concerns if CuddleComfort still doesn't have an automated system that can scale with the userbase in the event of a large influx of bad behavior.

    I haven't read much of the bill, but it's worrying that it's very broad in its wording of any site that "facilitates" prostitution or sex trafficking. I guess only time can tell how it will work out, but I guess it's never a bad time to beef up moderating tools. With the recent reddit subreddit bans, I wonder if they are cooking up further restrictions or bans on subreddits dedicated to personals.

  • BlueIrisBlueIris Mod

    The "Strictly Platonic" sections were always riddled with obvious and explicit sex-seeking ads and was never moderated. What's ironic is that the personal sections got deleted, which was people looking for unpaid sexual encounters, yet the Therapeutic section is intact, which is full of massage ads, which most people assume are going to be sketchy in the first place, merely because they're on Craigslist. And many, just look at the photos and you're pretty sure massage isn't the only thing that's on the menu.

    Doubtful that sex-seeking users could migrate elsewhere to post their own ads. Therapeutic ads are paid ads, and you have to at least have some kind of legitimate sounding service to offer to begin with. They'll respond to those ads for sure, though.

  • MK74MK74

    @BlueIris You seem to have in-depth knowledge of the adds on CL. Lol

    All kidding aside...CC appears to do a great job of monitoring the activity. And with the members feedback (karma and forums), i think CC is in good shape.

  • [Deleted User]apvalerius (deleted user)
    edited March 2018

    @Mark is not in the U.S. but is quick to ban those who make sexual advances on CC, even those who do so in a subtle manner. I NEVER expect to read a headline saying he's been extradited to the U.S. and is in one of our federal prisons just because one of our political parties is extremely ignorant and closed-minded, especially about 21st Century concepts like platonic cuddling.

  • UKGuyUKGuy
    edited March 2018

    @BlueIris - You are completely wrong to say Craigslist was never moderated. Craigslist has self-moderation. Anyone can flag an ad as inappropriate, and if enough people do it, the ad is removed. Craigslist also has automatic moderation based on words in the Subject, that's why you find so many ads with misspellings and weird characters intermixed. As for the Therapeutic section, I've used the services of massage therapists who advertise there and all have been completely genuine. There may be a tiny minority of 'sketchy' ads but they are very easy to spot.

  • pmvinespmvines

    When backpage shut down their adult services section many of them migrated to the massage section and women seeking men parts of the personals , now that is literally all there is , other than the Asian massage parlors in the massage section which some of if not many are rub and tugs . However many of them migrated to Craigslist personals section . Now thst Craigslist has shut down their personals section it is not inconceivable for many of them to migrate to the therapeutic side. Even though there's a fee, there is also a small fee with backpage and that has not stopped traffic on that site .

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    I'm not up on my history. Why exactly is it illegal for two consenting adults to have sex for money? It's not for me, but it affects me a lot more when it's illegal and everyone is slinking around trying to do it anyway :-P

  • pmvinespmvines

    @ubergigglefritz Because its prostitution. Personally I don't see anything wrong either, but its the law and is one of the reasons why paid cuddling tends to get a bad rep, because even though it is completely benign it gets lumped into sometimes through ignorance with something that is illegal

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    Lol, I know it's illegal. I'm asking what is the rationale behind it being illegal. ;-)

  • pmvinespmvines

    @ubergigglefritz Not much rationale behind a lot of our laws to be honest

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    Well, like daylight savings had something to do with farming, lol. I wasn't sure what was the case here, but I do generally agree :-P

  • calineurcalineur
    edited March 2018

    @ubergigglefritz Do you want the short answer or the long answer? I can imagine a heated discussion arising in an attempt to answer that question.

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at or implying... A combination of my sexuality and past trauma and relationship history makes me not interested in having sex for money. I have no issues with other people deciding to do so. It's two consenting adults doing something that hurts no one else. Why would I have a problem with that being legal? What's your point? Why is my reason for not wanting to do it relevant to the question of the rationale for it being illegal?

  • calineurcalineur

    @ubergigglefritz I edited my post as you were replying. My question was meant to be objective, but I realized that I know nothing about you, sorry. I take the question back! You were too quick for me to edit it out.

  • pmvinespmvines

    I have had friends who are prostitutes and escorts. Everyone has to make ends and I don't judge their hustles or what they have to do to survive in this world. There is a song by the Transplants, has a line that goes "some of my friends sell records, some of my friends sell drugs".

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    @pmvines I agree. The transaction is not hurting anyone else. The primary risks are to themselves and are because it's illegal.

    @calineur thanks. I was genuinely confused, lol. Also genuinely curious as to the history. It never made sense to me...

  • pmvinespmvines

    @ubergigglefritz Does seem like something that should have ended around the time that prohibition ended

  • calineurcalineur
    edited March 2018

    I may not be able to fully give my point of view on the rationale for making the laws in this forum. Even if I read all the stated pros and cons in the debate I’d still have my own opinion as to why the laws against prostitution exist.

    I don’t even believe that the official stated reason that the laws exist are the same as the real reasons as to why they exist.

    What I do know is that there are large numbers of people selling varying levels of such services, very close to my home in plain but hidden sight, and that they hide what they do from their spouses, boyfriends, parents, children, friends, etc., and protect those secrets under threat of bodily harm or other retaliatory action against those who know of it, and not because it is against the law. In my opinion, there is something in the definition of “human being” that makes it something to be avoided. In that one may find the real - but not officially stated - reason for the laws against selling sexual services for money.

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    People like to put their own morality onto everyone else. There's no other reason that I can think of. Done correctly, it hurts no one. What's the problem? :-/

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    Under threat of bodily harm?

  • quietman775quietman775

    @ubergigglefritz, I would argue against the idea that it hurts no one. A significant percentage of prostitutes are coerced into it. Trafficked people. Whether you are talking about runaway teens who are befriended by guys who turn out to be pimps; or people pimped out by drug gangs to whom they owe money; or foreign nationals brought to the U.S. by criminal gangs and forced into "the life" via threats of violence to family members back home; or illegal immigrants who get tricked out to pay off the smugglers who ferried them into the country; the average prostitute is not a self-empowered, liberated female putting herself through grad school by making the freewill choice to sell her body. Rather, she is a prisoner or a modern-day slave who is forced to turn over all her earnings to her pimp. She works on a stroll, or at a truck stop, or a strip club, or gets driven to various cheap motels. Talk to social service workers who work with prostitutes day in and day out and they'll tell you that the situation rarely involves two "consenting adults," unless you count the pimp and the john. The whole "victimless crime" thing is a pipe dream.

    Also, if you talk to people unfortunate enough to live in places where street prostitution flourishes --- the neighbors are victims too. All sorts of personal crimes go up. Robbery, rape (prostitutes are often rape victims, far more often than the general public) , drug use, sidewalks littered with needles and used condoms, streetwalkers servicing clients in the hallways of apartment buildings where children live --- we're not talking about Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman here.

    You said, "People like to put their own morality onto everyone else." True. That's why you can't commit arson for profit. Or marry an eleven-year-old, even if you are both "consenting." All such laws are about society imposing its morality. We only complain about that when the morality being imposed prohibits something we don't personally object to. :-) But I think more people would object to prostitution if they saw it for what it was. I'm confident that the majority of people in that life dream of deliverance, not of legalization.

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    I agree with the state it is in currently, but much of what you describe is because it is illegal. Making it legal makes it safer.

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    Making something like this illegal doesn't make it go away. It still happens. Only in a way that is more dangerous for all parties, including innocent ones like the neighbors you speak of.

    It would be the same with any currently legal drug. Make it illegal, you take away regulations and safe/dependable access for those who want or need it, and suddenly something that was safe becomes dangerous.

  • pmvinespmvines

    Countries with legalized prostitution don't have the same issues we have here with the drugs and crime and trafficking that can accompany illegal prostitution. Same reason that you don't have mobsters involved with alcohol as they were during prohibition. You don't see pot as being a major player in criminal related activities either now that it is legal in so many states.

  • ubergigglefritzubergigglefritz

    @pmvines You know it's legal in most counties in Nevada? I agree with you wholeheartedly.

    First article in a Google search. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thrillist.com/amphtml/sex-dating/los-angeles/what-is-a-legal-brothel-like

  • quietman775quietman775
    edited March 2018

    I don't see it as analogous to alcohol Prohibition or the legalization of pot. Because legalization of prostitution can't cure the massive imbalance between (willing) supply and demand. Here on CC one of the most obvious facts is that there are far more men searching for cuddles than there are women looking to provide them. So some guys can't get a response, go months without finding a cuddle partner (even a pro), etc. I've gotta believe that the number of women willing to provide sexual services for a fee are smaller still, while the number of men willing to pay for it is an order of magnitude larger. That will always create incentive for unscrupulous people to meet the demand with coerced supply/conscripted labor, and I don't see how legalization of the underlying activity affects that equation. Unless you're telling me that there is a vast quantity of women who would gladly prostitute themselves if only it were legal. :-/

    By the way, indoor prostitution (not street walking) was legal in the entire state of Rhode Island until November 2009, and the fact that it was legal did nothing to ameliorate the horrors of human trafficking and the sex slave trade in that state. That's just one reason why I can't buy into the idea that legalization would be a panacea.

    But we've gone off topic from OP's question about whether the the law in question would have any impact on a site like this, so I'll bow out here.

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