the first time I had an uncomfortable encounter with a man was when I was 13 and walking when a guy who was probably in his 40s or 50s asked me if I wanted a ride home and continued to drive next to me for quite some time AFTER I said no. He finally left when I said I’m 13 and he’s making me uncomfortable. I’ve had the drive up next to me experience countless times since and my hair stands on my neck when I hear a car slow next to me because you never know how it’s going to end. When I was 16 a family member SA’d me. I never told anyone for over 10 years because I was terrified of what people would say even though I said please stop and cried, my body responded to it and it made me feel like it was my fault. When I was 17 my DD dropped off my bf first and then took me to a church parking lot and tried to r me. I kicked and screamed I would call the police and he just chuckled and said calm down. When I was 18 I was followed in a grocery store with my friend and the guy waited at the end of checkout staring at us. We went to the opposite end of the store and he was waiting outside. I went back in and told security so they spoke with him while we went to our car with an escort. A man with the same description kidnapped a girl from our local CVS 2 weeks later. Also when I was 18 more men started to call me a b*tch because I wasn’t “the smiling sweet girl I used to be”. My guy friend I was close with was the only one who let me know yeah you’re more of a b but it’s a good thing. You’re protecting yourself. I’m 32 and I have had countless more encounters including being roofied, having who I thought was the love of my life R me, being followed on many occasions, being stalked from online dating people, being threatened, and much more.
The point I’m trying to get at is idgaf if it’s not all men. I would choose a bear in a heartbeat over the amount of mental pain I’ve gone through from men. I’ve also been friends with a lot of men and I can only count two who held their friends accountable or helped women out of bad situations instead of being a lousy bystander who says nothing. Your silence is compliance. You want women to trust men? Do better and be the change regardless of how it might isolate you from your friends because trust me, as women we are looking at who you surround yourself with and it matters.
From statistics To emotional appeal To insterctionality
All these have contradicted one another.
If this is to help women Do we not take account to "use to" women on the subject as they have a look in of such a drastic change on there now new societal pressure
If this is to help a more intersectional growth do we not take to account how this will affect, the minority in these subjects (Trans, disabled, poc)
People get upset at when a subject is turned into another group. Simply wanting to be heard and then given a solution. But finding a solution is not an easy road.
Women and men are not a minority group, but when broken down into sub groups, race, culture, sexual orientation. Mix that in, it is shown the challenges we face because of those differences.
To be heard is to also listen . Not to take away from women, but to make sure, that we too, do not allow our fear/hatred to become a prejudice, bigotry, and racism; which we have in the past and still are given plenty of examples when it comes to Black men.
From what I am learning in the world, hate and fear is allowed as long as the targeted group is large enough. Which to me completely destroys the point in what is trying to be done to help minority group causes, all the way to the individual.
That's why I brought up the different perspectives. A victim, can make other victims.
TL;DR: Nothing wrong with bringing up the challenges we as women face. Nothing wrong why some of us being scared. But this Man vs Bear, particularly this Man vs Bear thing (from what I've seen 👀) has brought out some illogical thinking to thinking dehumanization is ok, you know that thing that has been done to minority groups that I thought we were trying to get away from 🤷🏾♀️
Ummm women are considered a minority. Thanks… and I’d like to say that I’m all for helping other minorities out. So when they start up a thread talking about that, I will support it. The only time men’s mental health and any advocacy for men is stated is only when discussions of women’s state of being is being discussed.
When I say “I’m tired of being sexualized and groped and told I have no value simply for being a woman”, that is not code for men (and certain women) to suddenly take up that space by saying “hey, I know you women are tired of being raped and disrespected and killed endlessly by men (in horribly disgusting fashions), but think of how the MEN feel???? Won’t someone please think of the men?!”…..
You want to derail the thread about women’s suffering and what we go through daily? Start another thread… for once, I would love to have a conversation about the hardships that women face without someone trudging in simply to say “hey me too…” start your own thread if it’s that big of a deal for you…
@Cutencuddlysd I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. That’s what this whole man vs bear thing is about right? Ignore the certain people that want to steal your validation from you and I. Thankfully, there are men right here in the comments understanding why we say “bear” and advocate for us. We just want to go out in the world without men slowing their cars down to hit on us or hurt us or control us or rape us…. Heaven forbid, amirite?
There’s the problem identified. The men who agree with you here in the comments, agree with you. The men who don’t agree with you, don’t care. Problem: delivery of message to hostile brains.
Hostile brains excepting message.
I actually have seen some men with the hostile thoughts and self victimization come to see our issues through a different lens. And it’s happened here too. Some have even privately messaged myself and other women on the site, to personally explain their thoughts and explain why they realized they were wrong. So even if one person ends up understanding the whole point of “man vs bear” after countless horrible stories from the women here, that’s a win. This debate has to be seen past the “logical “bears are a stupid choice and here’s why” type thoughts. It’s hypothetical and goes so much further. But just because it goes over countless heads doesn’t mean there’s no point to these discussions. It’s so important. Minorities would never have achieved even the small amount we’ve gained if we just shrugged our shoulders and said “oh well 🤷🏻♀️”
@Sheena123 Absolutely, and you see that’s not what I was doing there, saying ‘oh well’ and shrugging my shoulders… I agree with you, I’m in the fight with you. But my OCD brain is breaking it down into its constituent parts as usual. 🤔
I suppose there will come a time, the more conversations that take place where those who agree with us will outnumber those who don’t given logic and reasoning are on our side. Call it a tipping point if you will. Once we reach it, the number should accelerate. Time is on our side here.
All that suggests women and vulnerable groups have to suffer longer and that’s shite too.
@zerolight40 👏👏 100%. I get a lot of messages from men calling me a loud mouthpiece and plenty rolling their eyes and telling me to shut up but at the same time, I get plenty of others that appreciate me being this annoying lol we really do have to keep fighting the good fight until it’s understood. Thank you for helping me 🌸🌸
@Sheena123
@Minestrone101 😂😂😂
the only thing that's annoying here is the size of that image. but if that was the intention than its brilliant @Minestrone101
@Sooson
OMG I remember that movie!!
@Sooson Hidden classic like Zohan.
Weaponized but not surprised 😅
Wait how do you guys post videos??
I've always wanted to do tiktok thread
I've only learned images( didn't want to open a whole new discussion asking that question 😅)
Out of the all of the posts I've read in this thread, yours below is by far my favorite one.
I actually have seen some men with the hostile thoughts and self victimization come to see our issues through a different lens. And it’s happened here too. Some have even privately messaged myself and other women on the site, to personally explain their thoughts and explain why they realized they were wrong. So even if one person ends up understanding the whole point of “man vs bear” after countless horrible stories from the women here, that’s a win.
That's because it shows real, concrete, actual examples of progress on the topic. To me, that's what I always look for with topics like this...what are the ways it can and will improve.
Some of the posts I've seen in this thread strike me as people basically saying, "Be better". Now, it's possible that's what works, and maybe that kind of "tough love" or "kick in the ass" way of putting things motivates people.
But I know for someone like me, it doesn't. It actually tends to have the opposite effect. Maybe I'm in the minority. But I've felt like actual discussion and getting insights is more helpful.
So I'm very curious to hear some of the things you've heard and discussed, and what motivated people to change their mindsets. I think that's more helpful than anything else.
For me, when it comes to not just this topic but really any one like it, there are some things that I've been learning that have helped me. Without going into too much detail, some of them are learning about the "spotlight effect" to help see a broader picture, trying not to respond immediately and emotionally but instead take some time to process things, and (the most difficult one) trying to be humble and put aside ego (which is much easier to do when I feel like the conversation is a "safe" one where things won't be thrown back in my face but rather used to make progress).
I've been trying to stay out of this because of its inherent explosive nature, but maybe this will help those guys who get defensive or offended.
Guys, women (in general) aren't afraid of men in this hypothetical (my opinion). They are fearful of the unknown. If they knew for a fact that the man in this scenario would be consistent and act like an actual human, with compassion and respect, then pretty much most would choose the man, not the bear. But it's the not knowing which gets to them.
It's no different than a parent who teaches their child about stranger danger. Do you get offended or annoyed by that, just because there are strangers out there who will hurt that child?
Is there a term for mansplaining to men?
@Sheena123 No need to thank me. In fact, it should be me, thanking you, and all the other beautiful, brave, determined, and powerful women in this chat and many others just like it. I’m learning from you and taking my queues from you all.
It’s a long road. Do you know what did it for me, to begin with? Powerlessness. I think, as a guy, you need to experience just once, having all the power, all the hopes and dreams, all the love, all the comfort and life sucked away from you just once. To feel utterly and completely powerless. I learned that years ago on the streets of London. A lesson I never forgot. Don’t feel sorry for me, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying, powerlessness, I’ve been there.
I just want to say I appreciate so many of those that have joined this discussion to grow as a community and to give, whether it be through tragic stories, through empathy and understanding and of course a willingness to understand. It means sooooo much to all the women that just want to be heard
I actually have seen some men with the hostile thoughts and self victimization come to see our issues through a different lens.
Exactly, @Sheena123 . We don't rail against the brick walls to try to change their minds. We do so to try to show those who are more flexible not only our position, but what the intentions of the other side truly are. Because nothing causes bad actors to show their true colors better than "loud mouthed", "opinionated", "woke" women.
Some people only start truly listening to the opposing argument when they realize just how terrible the people they agree with are behaving. Consistently.
Please understand that I approach this, not at all lightly, as an assault survivor. Not victim. Survivor.
This is basically my response to someone else's prompt.
I support gun ownership, and deeply love men, while understanding fear of humankind for many reasons. I have been badly wronged by many human beings.
I adore bears but they're wild animals. Technically, so are we. I don't know what I'd choose. The question, and the answer, are delicately nuanced, and designed to separate us.
I'd rather connect than separate. So I'll just keep doing that.
I want to grow plants and love creatures. I want to dance and write poetry and teach art to children.
I am filled with love and love and carefulness. I have had to learn carefulness, but I have never unlearned love. I am deeply empathetic to those who have had to.
I am just me, humaning on this planet the best way that I know how. Always with compassion, sometimes screwing up, but always learning.
If any of that 👆 upsets you, I understand, but it's my stance. We all deserve the agency over our bodies and lives to make that decision. And I'm proud of me for finding that after my so far 43 year journey on this earth. And I hope you find it too.
Team Bear.
The bear necessities . I don't want to poke the bear. I couldn't bear it. Bear that in mind. 🐻🐻 🐨 🐨 🐨
@Mela_B not to take away from anyone else’s responses, but yours was very touching, heartfelt and human
@Mela_B I too have found it empowering for myself to reframe how I view my past SA experiences with my language choices (survivor vs. victim). And for a lot of people this can be a really helpful tool in the healing process so I'm glad you brought it up!
I've come to view both identities/experiences as equally valid, and that only the person who experienced it can determine for themself whether they are one or the other, or perhaps one that moves into the other with time & healing. Not at all saying you are dictating which words women use, but I know some can feel really invalidated and revictimized when even the words they use to describe their experience are attacked so wanting to make sure folks reading know that both are valid and seen.
Some people experience SA as a victimization - they did not choose it, they did all the right things to avoid it, and still it was forced upon them. It doesn't matter that they "survived" with their life - the perpetrator chose to forever alter their life when they chose them as a victim. They may have gotten out with their life, but they don't view their experience as a survival - they were targeted and it was out of their control. Their way of dealing and healing is by acknowledging the reality that they experienced and giving their body and mind the space and validation it needs when the rest of the world is telling them to move on. Their way of processing the trauma is often more sensorial/experiential than goal oriented.
Others may focus more on the survival aspect. They refuse to remain victims, to give over any more power to the perpetrator. Much like a cancer survivor, they view the bulk of the battle behind them and focus on moving forward - on not letting the negative experience cloud their future. They reject the "victim" stereotype society would put on them, even if it sometimes means rushing through the healing process or hiding their pain away to seem less fragile. They're more goal oriented than sensorial/experiential in processing the trauma.
Others still may do a bit of both, either moving from victim to survivor in one fairly straightforward journey, or perhaps bouncing back and forth depending on context (I fall into this last one). Perhaps they tried both mentalities, wore both identities like masks for a time and felt neither was quite right, or perhaps they have undergone therapy that has encouraged them to push their comfort zones. Or maybe they're still in denial and have done absolutely no active healing and everything is still reactionary. Whatever the reason, they may feel like they are a victim, a survivor, both, or none at any given time. Their way of processing trauma may be delayed, chaotic, or thoroughly well-rehearsed from years of repeated traumas.
Any which way you process your trauma, choose to view it or discuss it - it's all up to you as no one else can sit in the driver's seat in your brain.
@lonelytauros I second that!
@cuddlefaery I'm really sorry that happened to you and @Mela_B . I am glad you are survivors. 💪
I would just like to add when I first made this thread in no way did I have any intention of separating or dividing anyone I knew it would be a learning experience for me to be able to read everyone’s thoughts and experiences and that’s what I’ve taken away from it I feel like I’ve learned a lot and I want to thank everyone that’s contributed
@lonelytauros I think topics like this are only divisive if one chooses to read them as such.
Consider how loving, close-knit families can have absolutely explosive, explicative-filled brawls where they intentionally hit each other where it hurts most....but they are able to take space, make amends, and move forward. If they have common intention to better understand one another, they can learn from the arguing rather than let it divide them.
People mistake strong emotional language and lashing out for incivility when the intent isn't there, and then excuse actual uncivil tactics because they're wrapped up in nicer wording. Impact always ends up being of more importance than intent, but that doesn't mean intent is unimportant - it just means we cannot excuse a net negative because someone was well meaning.
Those who've read the bear arguments and reasons with the intent of understanding WHY so many women are saying it, why it's continuing to be "a thing", and why so many are reacting so strongly are the ones who get to see this isn't a divisive topic but rather an inclusive one.
The larger conversation is not about men vs the bear or men vs women - it's about how we, individually and collectively, respond when a large group of people feel unsafe. We've seen this discussion play out time and again regarding race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, economic status, body type... When people say "we feel unsafe because x y z", our collective reaction has historically been to gaslight, invalidate, deny, minimize, speak over, or change the subject.
Women in the 60s & 70s: we feel unsafe because we have no power over our own lives, urban crime is rising, and we don't have the resources to support ourselves. Society: nah, you were asking for it with those new short skirts and working instead of being at home
Black people: we feel unsafe because we cannot trust the people who are supposed to protect us, and the system has literally been rigged since before our forefathers landed on these shores Society: it's your own fault, look at these crime statistics that absolutely have not been influenced by years of subjugation and inequality. Also, all lives matter.
LGBTQ+ people: we feel unsafe because we cannot ask for basic rights and privileges that others have without being attacked verbally and physically Society: well, then get back in the closet. You existing is making us uncomfortable.
Women again: we feel unsafe because we still cannot interact out in public without physically being in danger every day Society: are you kidding? A bear? Here's more statistics to prove we're not actually listening. And not all men.
Men: we feel unsafe because our way of behaving and thinking is being challenged and we do not have the resources or support to adequately deal with change. Society:Man up, shut up, and take one for the team. Don't be such a pansy/sissy/insert derogatory misogynistic & homophobic adjective here.
We all are just wanting to feel and be safe, and we all want to know our concerns are being taken seriously by others.
@cuddlefaery
If they have common intention to better understand one another, they can learn from the arguing rather than let it divide them.
I really think that’s the key thing. Everyone involved has to be looking to share, understand and learn rather than just trying to make a point and win. I think that’s where keeping emotions in check, taking time to process things, listening instead of just responding, and putting ego aside to learn new things is so helpful.
People mistake strong emotional language and lashing out for incivility when the intent isn't there, and then excuse actual uncivil tactics because they're wrapped up in nicer wording.
This is why clear communication and understanding of one another is so important. It can be very hard to judge intent, especially online when it’s all done in text and with people you don’t know as well. I think it’s also why sometimes people feel attacked when the other person has no intent of doing so.
@lonelytauros, @cuddlefaery I really appreciate both of your responses. I think mostly we've all done well with communicating peacefully and respectfully. There are some really good people here. 💜