@Mela_B I've always felt so fortunate that we crossed paths and I had the opportunity to spend a little bit of time with you. Huge hugs!
Here’s my take on it: there are both bad men and women out there, and there are people in both genders that have been unlucky enough to deal with too many bad ones. I feel like there may have been some indoctrination to get both men and women to the levels they are at today. But I can see where some women go with such a perspective. However, it does become wrong when your statements start demonizing the other gender. So I guess here’s my point: you don’t deserve for anyone to treat you like garbage. If you have been, you have people that are willing to help you through it, but make sure to help yourself and not make gross generalizations. I hope that helps.
I think that there is a fear of acknowledging the truth in the room. Society's gender dynamics have required women to live with the fear of violence. Also, the narrative is that psychopathic/sociopathic men are violent with women and that's not true. Men who have heighten responses to emotions, men who have been raised with entitlement, men who don't like women, men who haven't been socialized to recognize cues, men who are starving for physical connection, men who want to be noticed and on and on harm and are violent with women. When you acknowledge that the men who are beating, SA'ing women go to the library, gym, post office, teach in schools, fix your car, bake pastry's and take their kids to the park the fear that women describe makes more sense. When men are asked who of the men they have met, and are around have committed SA most men say they know no one. That means even other men can't identify who is safe and who is not. The statistics and more importantly the voices of women do not support the myth that bad apples are wrecking havoc in the world. Men you see every day move differently with women and differently when they want something and when they are rejected. The violence is being carried out stealthily alongside going to birthday parties and fantasy football league. There isn't a hand sign, haircut, band shirt or logo for the men who have done and will not due harm so it is safer to build a wall to stand behind then to play in the woods waiting to be ripped apart. Bear and man are the same thing.
I personally would choose bear, over and over and over again. Here's why:
When men are asked who of the men they have met, and are around have committed SA most men say they know no one. That means even other men can't identify who is safe and who is not
@Lion_2_Hug thank you, yes.
Not all men...who commit SA are monsters. Abusers don't abuse everyone - the most "successful" ones carefully pick their targets, groom them, and cultivate their image elsewhere to have allies in the event they are ever accused. And that's only considering when the assault is intentional. A lot of assaults occur due to lack of self-awareness and/or self-control, and by definition the people who commit them likely don't even realize just how bad the problem is or what exactly is the root cause.
And then there's those who when you set firm boundaries, make them stop (aka stop them from commiting SA), go "jeez, it was just a joke!" or "I didn't mean anything by it!" or any other means of deflection. Because their behavior couldn't possibly have caused that reaction 🙄🙄🙄
More than one of my assaults occured within the context of relationships. People I knew and trusted. People I had given consent to before. "Good guys"... who ended up being serial domestic abusers not just of myself but of others, I found out, because they did not do the work to change.
A former partner of mine was brave enough to confide in me he'd once assaulted his ex-wife. It wasn't his intent, but it was how she experienced it. He denied it for years, because he's one of the "good ones", generally liberal, in touch with his emotions, empathetic... But he just couldn't admit to himself that he effed up and violated her boundaries and consent. It took him decades and therapy to finally admit it, work through why it happened, how to prevent it in the future. I never felt unsafe with him, though I know his DV record scared away others, understandably. He was always super transparent with me, went out of his way to ask my consent and to vent his anger elsewhere so my own trauma wouldn't be triggered. Growth absolutely is possible, but first step is self-awareness.
We hate to break it to you, guys, but every single person here knows someone who has been assaulted and someone who has committed assault. Intimately - as in friends, family members, loved ones, yourself. Just because they have not confided in you does not mean it did not happen.
I haven't commented here until now and it has been a bit painful for me to read. I just wanted to say that I agree with much of what has been expressed in this thread.
@zerolight40: " ... maybe we should be enraged at them for separating us from love in the minds of women."
This bit hit home very strongly and for me contains a lot of power in just a few words. Of all the things I've read in this thread, this has been in my mind the most for various reasons, and made me want to chime in.
Also, been talking to and have cuddled with some very nice men I've met here, but I'm also getting a lot of messages from men who clearly are looking at this as a site for dating or hooking up. Just today I had a short back-and-forth that quickly went from talking about a shared interest in cuddling and motorcycles to him asking about kissing me. I ended up blocking and reporting him.
I want to have an open heart, and I do ... but having to be so careful in order to meet men, who I can feel safe with, like I do with the ones I have so far on here can be tough.
@cuddlefaery -
"jeez, it was just a joke!"
That's their explanation? Calling SA a joke? Smh. That makes them look worse than just apologizing.
@HarleyGirlKate Thank you. I appreciate your comments there. Funny when you quoted it like that it sounded like something out of an Adam Curtis documentary. He’s a hero of mine. 😊
Also: Edit: Kudos for blocking the bad ones. I’m really sorry about that.
@Mike403 it tends to go something like this:
Man pinches a woman's ass in public as she passes by. She whips around and angrily tells him "do NOT touch me". He tries to laugh it off and says something along the lines of "it was just a joke, sooorry" as sarcastically and clearly not sorry as possible. At no point did he ask for her consent to touch her, his action was clearly sexually motivated, and involved unwanted touching of private body parts - that is sexual assault.
@cuddlefaery - She should kick him in the nuts and say, "That was just a joke."
@Mike403 yeah, my default response to "it's just a joke" defense has either been to deadpan say "it's not funny" and walk away, or to play naive and ask "I don't get it?Please explain what's so funny to me." If they try to dodge by saying I just won't get it, I don't let them squirm out of it. "No really! You seem to think it's hilarious, so I want to understand the joke."
Usually takes the "fun" right out of them when they realize they're either gonna have to explain to me, in detail, why they think SA is funny, or they're going to have to concede it's not and walk away.
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@wilderdude
What I've found is that the women choosing the bear are those that tend to make very poor choices in regards to selecting a partner. The nice guys are viewed as boring and the bad boys are fun and exciting.
Editing because what I WANT to say here is much worse. What I WILL say here is no. This is incredibly backwards and toxic thinking which blames victims so your feelings don't get hurt. Listen to what women in this thread have said and do a whole lot better.
@Lion_2_Hug
I think that’s an extremely good post and points out a really important part of all of this. It also makes solving the problem more complex, especially since you listed such a variety of reasons why men do this.
@wilderdude imagine getting so close to articulating major problems with patriarchy and still landing so very far away.
Yes, you do need to do better. And yes, you needs to start on you personally instead of the rest of us. You could start by reading the many many lived experiences of women and learning instead of blaming them.
@wilderdude If you saw a woman being attacked, would you jump in and help, and kick arse and save her? Not because she was a woman, but because she was a human?
In that case yes, you would be responsible for the actions of another.
In the other comment, you make it sound like, (not starting an argument with you here, just a critique) that the choice of the woman’s partner has a direct effect on their chances of being attacked. My question for your consideration would be, what about women attacked by people who aren’t their partners? Strangers on the street for example?
@natickben some people just refuse to see it for how it really is. It’s sad, really…. When guys say the whole “pick better men” trope, all I think is “when my ex husband (who was ok for the first 4 years of our life together) decided to be incredibly abusive and horrible to me, that’s my fault? I guess he doesn’t realize that most of the abuse we receive by men are from family members and long standing intimate partners. But then again, those types of men don’t care to expand past their small bubble. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
@wilderdude Okay that’s a fair stance. So you wouldn’t give your life for a stranger on the street. I would. Probably without even thinking of the consequences. Maybe I hold my life in less value than you hold yours. Although, I would say such an action may not result in your death. But why would I do this? Why would I see such an attack and deliberately make it my responsibility to address the situation and take responsibility from the attacker? Could it be that there would be a horrible voice in the back of my head telling me I should have done something while I could? Maybe a philosophical argument about how it would better to die a hero than witness a cruel act and do nothing? People just did nothing, until they came for me. There’s a poem about it I think.
Yes the actions of people are not inherently your responsibility but you can choose to make them yours. In that case, you must intervene.
You did make an important point about the abuser being known to women, partners and family members etc… I don’t know what the stats are there. It could be quite high. I don’t have an answer in that particular arena except to say that education and the role of the media and societal norms play a key in how the abuses manifest themselves. There’s no easy answers there. But one thing I will say, and I have seen examples of this first hand, is that, when a woman chooses a partner, more often then not he presents as a good guy and turns nasty later. In this case, how was she supposed to know he was a wrongun? They don’t come with a tattoo on their heads saying ‘NOPE NOT THIS ONE’. That’s the whole point of the thought exercise.
@SBG that is honestly one of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time lol 😂
@wilderdude You make good points. Yes, I suppose not everybody is going to intervene for a variety of reasons. For me this was more about using this as an example that a person can in certain circumstances transfer responsibility for actions from one person to the other. In effect, making one responsible for the actions of the other. I absolutely understand this isn’t every case.
On the other thing, I would say, the bad choices of a woman picking the partner, after the red flags etc… would that in that case, mean that her punishment should be to be attacked by that partner?
@Lion_2_Hug and @cuddlefaery Such good points, thank you! The men we know perpetuating SA are normal, "good" guys. That's why we're so scared. It could literally be anyone, from strangers in alleys to someone we deeply care about. Sometimes it feels like no one is ever safe.
To be fair, I don't walk around town or the woods in inordinate fear for my life from any and all men. But there are definitely circumstances that get my heart rate up. The scenario at the end of the Tik Tok that @justjennn posted sent a chill down my spine - what if the "in the woods" scenario was changed to "in my house"? If I came downstairs to a bear going through my fridge vs. a strange man sitting in my kitchen!!! The bear would send me to the phone, the police, and animal control, but I wouldn't be crazy afraid - it might even be funny. If it were a man, I would be absolutely sure I was about to die, or worse.
Bears aren't usually aggressive unless it's protecting its cubs. If it breaks in somewhere, It may just be looking for food. A man may have other intentions.
@wilderdude Got there didn’t we.
@wilderdude So you don't believe that two against one is in your favor ? Because maybe someday you will be the one assaulted or will deeply need help - you won't feel betrayed or upset in the least bit when a stranger watches your assault/being stuck in a burning building/drowning in a submerged car?
I feel humans at the very base level should care about the welfare of the community.
@wilderdude What I've found is that the women choosing the bear are those that tend to make very poor choices in regards to selecting a partner. The nice guys are viewed as boring and the bad boys are fun and exciting.
Consider this situation. Woman has a boyfriend who is a nice guy. One day, she goes shopping, and gets groped by a stranger in the soup aisle. He then angrily calls her a bitch because she objects to being groped.
Explain, please, what was her poor choice here?