Maybe lock his thread now.
I dunno.
Now I can't stop thinking about how fun it would be to grope a cocaine bear.....
@ATemporaryUser0 I don't see it as slandering men. There are reasons given by women to support their answer,.and it's not because they feel all men are a certain way, but rather is based off of a long term history of experiences that lead them to be cautious of men they don't know . If that makes you feel a certain way then im sorry . I'm not going to berate you for it because it is not going to change your mind, and you are entitled to feel how you feel without interference . But I will tell you that I don't feel you are correct in your assumption that this is man hating or man bashing , and the comparison of the shared experiences women voice to some kind of racist ism as you state in your what if they were talking about someone's race not gender argument is off base .
@cuddlefaery Maybe what I really wanted to say (or ask), what is the benefit of continuing this conversation at this time? So many arguments have been made by you and others to support your side that whoever you were going to convince is convicted by now. My personal experiences are nowhere close to what I am reading here. I have so many random thoughts in response to what I read here and in the other toxic thread, I don't even know where to start.
Instead of thinking "oh, this isn't about me - I've never done that", they're recognizing themselves in what women are complaining about.
I am one of those bad guys until I prove otherwise. I'm saying this because I think about 15 years ago or so a young woman chose to keep walking in the rain at 1am in a dark road over jumping in my car and be taken wherever she needed to go. "its ok, my fiancé is on the way to pick me up", bullshit. you don't even know how to spell fiancé. but ok, not judging since I was never a woman. that was the last time. I'm done going out of my way to assist women because I got tired of the rejections. but again, not judging. it didn't used to be that way years ago. it's sad to see women out there who's resting facial impression is "don't even think about it" but it is what it is.
And why are we not asking why men are like that? were they born that way? there could be numerous reasons. I'm not excusing the behavior that causes women to choose the bear, but the reasons are worth looking into if we want it fixed. (actually, started typing reasons but almost all are "political", so I smashed the backspace) but for example: The way pornography has "evolved" over recent years and how accessible it became, doesn't really help the cause of making men better and does impact how men view and treat women (I never watched porn, a friend told me)
I am also a "victim" of these man (not comparing the magnitude at all ). because the way women treat me is impacted by their experiences with other men.
Women get groped on the bus, subway, planes, etc. ... harassed at work ... catcalled on the street ...none of which has to do with who they are dating or whether they are dating at all, or "nice" guys being "boring."
Sexual Harassment at work: we take harassment training once a year since its mandatory. but that never stopped women around me from joking about firemen and hoses and stuffing envelopes or comparing hotdogs and sausages during potlucks or asking me if I'm manscaping or [even worse]. and not every man out there understands that none of it is an invitation (you never know but assume it isn't). man, I miss the birth control conversations in the office . WFH gets old sometimes.
I've never seen a woman getting groped or pinched at a bar, or at the beach or by the pool or on the bus or on the train. where should I go to whatness that? Please tell me? or do I pick the wrong hours? just sharing my own experiences. maybe what I want to say here is that thread paints a much darker picture then the reality out there. similar to the media blowing things out of proportion (demonstrations for example) and when you go out there it seems like what you saw on TV is from a different planet.
Women do make poor choices. all the time. I see it around me. people I know, people I work with. bragging about him being an Alpha and before you know it he's on house arrest with a monitoring device (true story). not an excuse for SA or ongoing abuse, but I do wish women made better choices and were a little more selfish. can't give examples of the types of men to avoid because my basic reasonable standards will offend some in this community and come across as judgy (and expose hypocrisy here yet again)
and as far as the female cuddlers here: there was a thread discussing safety that disappeared for some reason and I'm telling you some pros take no safety measures at all. not even the bare minimum. I even lectured a pro here about safety because I thought she was putting herself in danger. after she already had bad experiences.
@cuddlefaery
So many men are getting riled up about women choosing the bear even when the women are not talking specifically about them because they are reading themselves into it.
The men you and other women are taking about, those who are the reason the woman chose the bear, are not here to read what you have to say and if they were directed over here to read, they probably wouldn't care anyways or even worse get a confirmation that they can keep doing what they are doing since everyone agrees that that's how it is. I'm talking in general, not CC in particular. and the ones you are talking to here are not the ones that caused the woman to choose the bear
but rather is based off of a long term history of experiences that lead them to be cautious of men they don't know .
I am cautious of women I don't know so I can't blame women for being cautious of men they don't know. so go ahead choose the bear, the snake, the crocodile, the scorpion. I'm good. as stated above JUST RANDOM THOUGHTS.
I guess I just proved myself wrong. this conversation hasn't run its course, it hasn't even started yet.
Holly F its already tomorrow. good night.
The men you and other women are taking about, those who are the reason the woman chose the bear, are not here to read what you have to say and if they were directed over here to read, they probably wouldn't care anyways
How can you be so certain predators think and act that way? Do you have a secret decoder ring? Just curious.
Most people never speak of the worst things they have done for various reasons. Even world leaders dress up atrocities in lies. I would never claim to know who are the men spoken of and it chills me to think if I knew.
@TheFunCartel I used to watch Colombo. The dude was sharp
@Sooson I know you like to joke…so do I. But seriously, were you making an assumption or stating fact?
I only ask not to have a “I gotcha moment” but to point out how your assumption actually underscores the fact that no one knows who they are until they know who they are until after an assault or harassment has occurred. The predator in social camouflage is far scarier than a known dangerous animal.
But seriously someone who chats here regularly recently claimed that 97% of CC members don't even visit the forum. And if you imply that there are bad actors who read this thread ok than I'm still of the opinion that nothing they read here will change their ways. I could have said most men. That's a reasonable assumption. There are allways an exception. I agree with your last sentence.i think you made similar comments in the past.
I'm still of the opinion that nothing they read here will change their ways.
I respect that opinion and I do lean towards that conclusion but that doesn’t mean people should stop speaking against it. Great wrongs of the past could never be righted by silence.
Yeah, definitely the bear.
@Sooson I'm pretty sure that thread about pro safety got moved to the pro forums because it should have been posted there in the first place 🤷🏻♀️ so it didn't actually disappear
I remember how divided a lot of people were in the aftermath of Lorena Bobbitt’s “Free Willy” campaign. For many women it was a revenge fantasy come to light while so many men—c’mon guys be honest—were appalled or had buddies who were appalled and grabbed their crotch and scrunched their face in pain every time the case was brought up. That should have been an empathy moment for men but I think it became more of a bonding moment with their penis. Kind of a you don’t know what you got until it’s gone type of feeling.
@Sooson So because you personally haven't seen something happen, it doesn't? I would think that puts a lot of aspects of reality at risk of non-existence.
"I haven't personally seen it happen" in a thread full of women sharing their personal experiences of it happening is near perfect illustration of much of the problem
@TheFunCartel I did not say people should not becdpeaking against it and I'm ok with the bear. @WriterGF @natickben I clearly stated random thoughts and personal experiances
It’s sad that there are countless stories from women all throughout this forum, (not just this specific thread) discussing endless sexual assault taking place in every location imaginable and yet certain people still decide to say “well, I haven’t seen it therefore it’s not how you women describe it….” 🙄🙄 or they say “yea well, me too…” and completely discredit what we go through…
This thread and this type of discussion isn’t just to shine light on the abusive monstrous men that refuse to see women as humans. This is also for those men that seem to really think women have it good or think that woman are exaggerating.
I’ll believe I have it good the moment I can go for walk by myself in broad daylight and only worry about things that men worry about when they go for a walk. I don’t know any man that goes for a walk and is on high alert that they’re going to get kidnapped, thrown into a basement and tortured. The main fear is a general one: getting robbed or killed. Everyone has that slight fear but women have extra fears (because of our experiences… that are actually very real and very prevalent despite the fact that “you’ve never seen it”….) Getting killed is awful, obviously. But there have been waaaayyyyyyy too many cases of women getting kidnapped while they were simply going for this innocent walk.
Look up Junko Furuta. That’s the first one that comes to mind. Read what she has to endure and you tell me you wouldn’t choose immediate death instead…. People ask what’s worse than death? The shit she went through. That’s worse. And there are thousands and thousands of other instances where women are targeted to be gang-raped and tortured in absolutely horrible ways.
I’ve been told by so many men in my life that I’m worthless simply because I’m a woman. If there’s anything useful about me, it’s only sexual to a lot of the men I’ve met in my life. And a lot of the horrible things said to me by these men have me worried that if I say the wrong thing, I will be the next Junko…
I live my life on high alert all the time. And that’s not fair. So I will always tell my stories alongside the hundreds of women here who tell their stories to because as someone else said “great wrongs of the past can never be righted by silence”…
A thought that jumped out at me while rereading this thread:
The people who feel attacked by these discussions identify with and empathize more with the perpetrators than with the victims. Their first and strongest reaction is to compare themselves to the perpetrators, not to imagine themselves in the shoes of the victims.
It becomes immediately clear who actually, truly believes and supports SA victims/survivors as they offer sympathy, support, use active listening, and take action to effect change in their own area of influence instead of trying to shift blame.
It also is clear who only offers conditional support - that only believes the victim if they meet their personal criteria for being worthy of listening to. Or perhaps, statistics be damned, they still buy into the myth of rampant false accusations. The reality? Between 2-8% of reported SAs are estimated to be falsified to some extent (note that means not necessarily completely false). Compared to the estimated 63% of r*pes alone that go unreported, it's absolutely ridiculous to consider that all or even w significant portion of these women might be making their stories up.
The real drive behind the false reports myth staying alive? Do a Google search for "false sexual assault reporting" and you'll mostly find ads from lawyers using scare tactics to convince men that false accusations are rampant and that they need to be prepared to defend themselves. Oh and don't forget to hire them when you get accused (sarcasm). And your buddies who claim their "crazy" ex falsely accused them? Yeah, hate to break it to you, but it likely wasn't false.
We don't like to believe that the people we interact with on a daily basis, that we care about and respect, are capable of doing horrible things - and yet it happens all the time. While yes, sometimes the warning signs can be clear as day, a lot of times people are blindsided when someone they know is arrested, charged, and found guilty of violent crimes. Parents almost always believe their children are innocent despite all evidence. Friends and neighbors never see all the red flags (I have a personal story about this I'll save for another day, or can DM for the curious). All criminals have people who care about them, and not all of them know what they are up to until they are caught.
So I can pretty much guarantee you that not only do you know someone who has SA another person, despite you not seeing it happening around you, but there's a very good chance you or someone else in this discussion has done so as well. Violating consent becomes incredibly easy when one doesn't even think to ask - which was the default for our culture pretty much until 2018's #MeToo blew things up on a wider scale in the public conscience. (Remember, SA isn't just r*pe, but also a whole lot of various levels of unwanted touch without consent)
I may have a more detailed follow up later, just wanted to put that here for now.
@Unscented_Lemon I think your response best illustrates the point that there are men like you who believe that bad boys are the only men who SA women. It is not statistically true, not mathematically possible and not what women repeat with example after example of nice guy SA stories. I understand that it doesn't make sense. You couldn't possibly know anyone. You have never played a game or had a great conversation with a man like that because you don't surround yourself with men like that. That is what women say an then are SA'd. You know someone and you have no idea who it is which is what women are saying to. If staying away from bad boys was the solution brilliant women, looking for stable partners and long-term love wouldn't have SA stories.
With reference to the cocaine bear, which looks like a neat and funny movie (I want to see it someday) - the actual cocaine bear stumbled on a patch of cocaine and ran himself silly in the middle of the woods and died of heart problems after about 45 mins.
It’s sad that there are countless stories from women all throughout this forum, (not just this specific thread) discussing endless sexual assault taking place in every location imaginable and yet certain people still decide to say “well, I haven’t seen it therefore it’s not how you women describe it….” 🙄🙄 or they say, “yea well, me too…” and completely discredit what we go through…
@Sheena123 So as I stated: random thoughts that came to mind reading comments here and elsewhere in the forum and PERSONAL EXPERIANCES. But again, public groping specifically, you would think someone my age would get to have witnessed that once or twice if it was as rampant as described here. all I'm trying to say is that it is not as dark out there as the impression this discussion gives. I'm out a lot, I'm not seeing women walking around in fear or looking behind their shoulder every two seconds. I'm not undermining the stories and the experiences shared, but I'm genuinely asking what the purpose of this thread and similar others is. what is the goal? maybe this thread should be stickied rather than removed so such stories and observations of men can be constantly shared and be in the spotlight if it's that important even though has little practical value at least when it comes to fixing the issue over here on CC. I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm genially suggesting that. but what else can be done besides sharing the stories? not INSTEAD OF . but IN ADDITION
Maybe some of the effort should be dedicated to lobbying for decent law enforcement? that will example out of sex offenders? how do we expect something like groping to be punished when you have pedophiles out there that are not getting jail time, just counseling and a spot in the sex offender registry?
another genuine question: what percentage of men in your opinion are abusive monsters?
another genuine question: I'm such threads. what is expected of participants? nothing but sympathy and agreement? not am ounce of disagreement? I think I did good. I lasted 9 pages without jumping in.
and where are all the white knights when a pro complains people, she reports are not getting banned? or when someone states that they are made to feel annoying when they report? or when a pro with multiple karmas says something like "what's wrong with spending some time in the hot tub" always crickets,
I'm on your side here @Sheena123. I've called men worse names than anyone here, including you
Remember(since peope are irl considering the bear and not in message sense 😂): Brown Bear lay down Black Bear yell/fight back White Bear say your prays
And Cocaine Bear have an 8-ball ready as a distraction
@Sosoon I realize you have a larger point to make, but I keep getting stuck on this notion that because you personally haven't seen it, it can't be "rampant." I have friends who have lived in St. Louis for decades and have never seen a murder, but it's the murder capital of the country. Shoplifting is a big problem in my state but I have never personally seen someone do it. One person's experiences simply don't count for much when it comes to this sort of thing.
What I got from this topic was women trying to explain why they would hypothetically "choose the bear." Anyone who feels the topic has run its course and they are getting nothing from it could simply move on and ignore it.
@Sosoon I realize you have a larger point to make, but I keep getting stuck on this notion that because you personally haven't seen it, it can't be "rampant."
@WriterGF and unlike others who got upset with you for pressing an issue in a different thread recently, I am not!
I realize you have a larger point to make
I appreciate that you realize that, and your points are all valid, and I accept them. no point in going back and forth debating a subjective word. maybe I could have made my point differently. I need to crack more eggs. I'm out of shells.
@cuddlefaery, I didn't see your comments before I responded to Sheena. ok, I agree! seriously I do. but now what?
@Sooson said,
what is expected of participants? nothing but sympathy and agreement? I agree! seriously I do. but now what?
what is expected of participants? nothing but sympathy and agreement?
I agree! seriously I do. but now what?
What about a boycott of cuddling men on CC?
If it's true that only 3% or whatever of Users read these forums, imagine how much attention would be brought to this issue here on CC if, for a designated period of time, men could not schedule cuddle sessions with women. This would involve disabling certain functions on this site.
And on the other side, women could not select Men, or Everyone, as potential cuddlers. The only option available to women would be other women.
During this blackout period, a link would be provided to websites about rape/sexual assault awareness, along with a message by site admin about the topic.
Now, for the record, I'm personally not a big fan of boycotts, but it's just an idea.
Otherwise, it'll be just like you speculated, @Sooson , endless pages of thread discussions than most CC users will never read.
Why punish the good guys to hurt the bad guys? It’s a bit like locking up the entire country to catch the criminals @TxTom?
Edit: Git to be a better solution than that.
Good point, @zerolight40 . Let's just keep commenting on the forums then.
Let's see if we can get to 15 pages by the weekend---15 pages that supposedly most users here won't read.
@TxTom That definitely won’t work. What else you got? Maybe something outside the realm of the internet?
You have a point though. If we stop talking all together, everyone loses.
The people who want to read it will, and the people who don't, won't. Not sure why it should matter to anyone if it stays open, since you are free to ignore it. If the position is only a small number of people read the forums so no one is reading the topic, you could just as easily argue why have forums at all since that applies to all topics.
@Sooson I've talked about the "so now what" frequently in other threads, and it either gets attacked, sidestepped, or ignored. I'm going to put the larger bit under spoilers this time preemptively.
How do we fix this problem?
It's a systemic problem, built into the very way our culture thinks about gender roles and interactions. The only way to fix it is to change how we collectively think, and that starts one person at a time like any social change. Eventually enough momentum is gained and enough social pressures are in place that things like laws and social norms change as well.
But that all is not going to happen as long as good people stand by and do nothing, either saying "not my problem, I didn't cause this" or simply remaining willfully ignorant of what is going on around them.
So what can good men, who do not want to SA women do?
(Note: this isn't The Way Forward™️, but a way.)
First, they have to start with themselves. They need to make sure their social-emotional skills are up to par so that they know how to respond appropriately to their emotions rather than taking them out on women. This may mean therapy, it may mean self-education, it may mean support groups, etc. Whatever it is, do the work.
Next, they need to make themselves fully aware of the issue. Not just the stats, but the full impact of the issue on the lives of people around them. Learning how to ask people to share painful stories, being able to hold supportive space so they're willing to share honestly, being able to show that they are worthy of being trusted - these are some of those social-emotional skills mentioned previously that women generally are taught younger and forced to use more regularly. Hearing the actual lived experiences of people in your life, being able to see the world through their eyes, is the only way you're going to start noticing all the SA that you haven't paid attention to up until this point because it is so normalized. And if the people in your life haven not shared with you, it's because you are not yet safe - do the work.
The next step is for men as allies to start working within their sphere of influence to effect change. If they see other men behaving badly, they call them out immediately. They have full, honest conversations with their male friends about consent and SA, not under the guise of "protect the women", but rather looking at it as a systemic problem that negatively impacts everyone, including men. They need to be prepared to be vulnerable and honest and discuss times they themselves have violated consent, intentionally or not, or times they were victimized themselves. These discussions between smaller groups of men, in private, is how men will finally get to start seeing it's not just a "those bad guys over there" problem - it's a "we all could do better" problem. And I would say "people" instead of men here, but a lot of women already have these discussions with their friends - again, that earlier social-emotional learning focus. It's not that guys lack it, it's that they don't generally prioritize it past what we learn in grade school, and so the skills become rusty from disuse and are halted at a juvenile level.
From here, those allies can choose if they want to become more active advocates on a larger scale or keep just supporting and doing their own work to be the change. It's completely up to them - not everyone is a "social justice warrior" or built for doing grassroots organizing, and that's totally fine. But we all can change our own behaviors and impact those around us in our immediate circles. We can make sure we are legitimately not adding to the problem. We can commit to life long learning. We can practice active listening and support victims when we come across them. We can keep making it socially unacceptable to commit SA long before law enforcement catches up. We can keep having those conversations with friends, family, and social groups to help educate and share resources, and to raise true awareness in those who have been going around with blinders on.
All of this is pretty much taken straight from every effective social change movement that has happened since recorded history began. The only thing that has changed is the players and the focus. You start with yourself and then expand circles outwards, one step at a time. It does not have to be overwhelming, and there are lots of people happy to help on the way.
(Source: 15+ years of taking gender and social justice college courses and attending seminars, same number of years volunteering with grassroots organizations that specialize in education, and 20+ years of teaching social-emotional skills to people ages 2-70ish in a variety of classroom settings)