I think the solution to anything is to exclude emotions and think with logic.
Most of what this thread contains can replace "I think" with "I feel". And that's why it's such a long thread....like most others here that show people's emotions.
The issue is that logic draws a conclusion. Logical conclusions, right or wrong, end up creating the best solution eventually with the least amount of detriment.
Emotions are a reaction to something, not an independent force. You can't conclusively solve a problem properly with emotions as everyone has a relative view and not conclusive.
Everything I am seeing is trying to solve problems with emotions rather than logic. And that's why it's an ineffective mess. Welcome to society.
Women wouldn't choose the bear if the men who violated their trust were actually responsible men (hence not birthing the issue to begin with) and those who weren't responsible men would be properly penalized when they abused women. But again, society is now working off emotions.
So what we then end up with is a huge debate with the logical end being same every time: everyone has an emotional position, nobody has an answer that works, the problem gets worse, and in this case, men will continue to question who they are until they can't define masculinity as in another thread here, and just like politicians who can't define what a woman is, nobody will know how to reproduce anymore until we wipe ourselves out.
Logic is the answer.
I’ve often thought about what role our education systems play. Maybe, I’m no expert, but maybe we should get them young, as boys at 14, 15, 16, in schools, with lessons about consent, personal space, etc.. any other subjects relevant to the issue. Boys need to come out of school with a decent grounding in these matters so that they go into the world as more socially conscious individuals. (I’d also give young girls basic self defence classes, maybe?)
It’s not brain washing you understand. It’s just trying to make the upcoming generations more aware of these issues and to be fair, many of them already are.
My generation never had the internet. We never had lessons on relations with woman and vulnerable groups. Sex education was really basic. Everything we learned, we learned on our own somehow. Maybe my South London school in the 1990s was particularly shite.
@Platypus0110
So what is your logical answer to this problem?
@Platypus0110 I disagree. Pure logic is a myth, as we as human beings cannot separate our emotions from our brains - the two are intrinsically intertwined. In education and in therapy we have what we call the "wise brain/mind", which takes that into consideration.
If we try to tackle this from a purely logical position, ignoring all emotional input, we are in denial of reality and being terrible scientists/logicians as we are ignoring half of the data. It is equally a logical fallacy as relying purely on emotional input. In order to come to a logical conclusion, you have to objectively take in all data - and that includes the lived experience of victims, which includes their emotions, and the toll on victims families, and their emotions, and the impact on other men, and their emotions, etc.
Emotions and logic are not mutually exclusive, and it is only by utilizing both together that one can have both a complete picture and utilize their cognitive ability to the highest degree possible.
Edit to add: it should be noted that even those responding to this discussion with "let's be logical" are in fact having an emotional reaction - perhaps denial, frustration, disgust, or apathy. Emotion isn't always wailing, screaming, breaking things, or otherwise making a scene. We choose how we respond to our emotions, some more than others.
I don’t think there’s a logical answer because you can’t apply logic to sociopaths and psychopaths. People in general sometimes act and do random things that we don’t expect them to whether it’s a stranger or a friend or a family member. I’m sure we’ve all been surprised by peoples actions. Women here have voiced their experiences, their concerns, their thoughts, and we can either listen to them or we can continue to be defiant and try to say they’re wrong. I choose to listen to what they have to say and if that means a woman perceives me as a threat because I’m a man I’m fine with that. It doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. It just means that they’ve had bad experiences and I understand that or at least try to.
Will,
To solve any problem, the cause must be identified. In this case we have many causes.
However, it also helps with any cause discovery of you see the end result as we see in what I posted above.
If the end result is destroying the human race because of loss of gender function, the answer is to simply reinstate that gender identity and role with societal reinforcement.
But that's the solution. That's not the action. Solution and action are 2 different things. Action requires a method, a plan.
In basic format:
You can't fix it fast. It didn't happen fast.
My parents never taught me how to be a man. They also didn't teach me how to manage money. They didn't teach me how to have relationships. They didn't teach me how to think and draw conclusions properly.
Did yours?
99% would say no. Schools taught them.
What is the role of the parent? Why is it handed off to govt guided mass public opinion?
Having said all that, people are not flawless. We will fail. And we will continue to need to start over.
The realization of the rebuilding of the base must be equally portant to the action. It has to be serious. Otherwise you can't gain ground over time. This will take 3 generations.
Men can start today. Defy the norm. Be real men.
A "Gentleman" is a * gentie * *man *.
Anyone reading this should let that play around in the brain a while.
There is no such thing as "Toxic" masculinity. "Toxic" is an emotional response word to a logical behavior of irresponsibility. We need to call it what it is. We can't even get our vocabulary right.
Masculinity is masculinity. Being a man is being man.
A woman longs for a gentle man.
You can't be gentle without being a man and make it work.
You can't be man without being gentle and make it work.
But you can't reshape everything if you can't fix yourself first.
(-edited for spelling for context clarification)
@zerolight40 my sarcastic/snarky answer to that,
as a former classroom educator in the US: yes, we'll get right to that between all the testing and dictated curriculum, all while having to pay for supplies out of our own pockets with a salary that is less than most office entry levels hourly, dealing with extreme behavioral issues because they have no support at home, and meanwhile all extracurricular topics are being cut. Just try to get a social-emotional curriculum to pass in states where basic health education has been cut, recess cut, even physical education and sciences cut. 🙄🙄🙄 And who exactly are we going to get to do the teaching? There's no time in the day for additional classes, teachers are already stretched thin and are generally under qualified for teaching these skills.
My non-snarky answer:
yes, it needs to start young, and it needs to not stop. But it is going to have to be multi-disciplinary and not just left to the schools - part of the problem is with both parents working and single parent households, the brunt of social-emotional learning has already fallen on the schools who are illequipped to do it (not that most parents are). Parents need to be taught how to teach their kids these skills, need to learn them themselves so they can lead by example as that's how kids learn social skills best. We as a society have to completely revamp the educational system so that it can properly educate the whole child and not just teach them to pass tests and then fail at real life. And then, again, since kids learn and form their social skills and values not just from their parents but also from their communities, we have to look at those to and how they can teach and learn to change the social norm.
And then that learning needs to not end at childhood, as those skills fade with disuse, and people get exposed to ever increasing challenges to their emotional resiliency as they age. College kids should continue taking classes. Adults should be encouraged to do therapy the same way they do preventative dentistry, optricians, and annual physicals.
Cuddlefaery,
We aren't talking about disjoining the two, but prioritizing which takes precedent on solving a problem.
Emotions give an exclamation point to a logical problem. They should be treated that way. They are a severity and qualifier property. They can also be a flavoring quality.
But to say logic doesn't exist in pure form would be to say 1+1 is an emotional equation. It is not.
You can give preference (emotional flavor) to 1+1 with qualifying what items 1 represent but it's still a logic problem.
Lonelytauros,
By the eventual retraining of statistical masses, the actual problem becomes a statistical improbability.
We got here by giving up our statistical rules and going with whimsical emotional desires. Those created mass detraction from ethics and now we have the problem: more people not behaving.
The psychopaths etc will become more obvious and fewer by retraining ourselves and the masses.
This will create harsher penalties for those not following along.
In essence, the total process reversal of how we got here.
@Platypus0110 that's a false equivalency though. People are not math problems nor numbers. They do not fit neatly into little boxes that always behave the same way.
Correct.
Over all, you solve the problem for the statistical majority as in the example above, and keep at it until the issue becomes a statistical irrelevancy.
It is math problem. But the people being human take time, and take group reinforcement to keep it going. Again, consider degradation of ethics and society when figuring the cause of the current issue.
Again, it's what created the problem, but in reverse. It can't happen fast.
For your point of emotional plus logic, we should realize the emotional success we would achieve with this logical solution. But it is the logic that is the necessary backbone of the process.
@cuddlefaery Yeah I see the issues with funding, reform of the education systems, outsourcing to teachers what the parents should be teaching and societal counter-learning in the community. It absolutely makes sense for a multi-directional approach. That sort of reform of the systems though might have to be done from both the top level of governments and the base level of parents and teachers, activists.
You right though, money is an issue there. Also: my step-sister is a teacher's assistant. People in that profession should be paid way more than they currently do.
Bad faith trolling is dumb.
@zerolight40 yeah, it's even worse for teaching assistants. Props to her for sticking it out.
TAs make minimum wage here, which is not even close to a living wage in my area. I looked into substitute teaching vs. assistant teaching when I moved back to California and worked on getting my license transferred, and it was no contest. Living wage as a single is $21/hour to be able to afford rent without roommates, TAs were getting $14/hr, subs $170-200/day. I can make FAR more as a sub now than I ever did as a full time teacher, and not have to deal with lesson planning or parents, if my immune system could handle the load.🤣😭
Both logic and emotions are important. Logic would probably tell men not to get involved. Emotion reminds me that half the people I care about are women. Seeing people hurt makes me sad.
I agree that our intellect and our emotions need to sit down and have a conversation. Engaging in wise mind thinking has made a huge positive impact in my life.
Regarding toxic masculinity: it exists. I will concede that toxic masculinity might be called false masculinity, and I will suggest that some of harmed by it are men.
I grew up with a father who was a man in every way, and confident enough in his masculinity to not have to prove it to anyone. He was kind and gentle, and he cried at my sisters' weddings.
He was a hard worker, and smart.
The trait that makes me respect him as a man? His ability to grow, to learn, and to admit when he was wrong. I honor that and work to imitate it.
I think THAT is part of the definition of healthy masculinity.
There are so many logical fallacies being discussed here that I don't even know where to begin.
@Minestrone101 Begin, at the beginning...
@JoyfulHeart
Great post. It actually fits in perfectly with the other thread I made.
@Minestrone101
Yeah, it is kind of overwhelming.
@zerolight40 @Will564 I'm tapping out, but I'll watch from afar. I don't have the emotional marathon strength of some of y'all. lol
@Lion_2_Hug
And of course, anyone who has to call themself a nice guy is obviously lying.
I get the same feeling from some of these comments that I have gotten from some of the men in my life - the drive is to "fix it" and move on/get it over with when what I really want is for them to listen, gain some understanding, and sit with me in the pain of it. Be my partner in the discomfort so that I don't feel so alone.
I don't think the end goal is to solve a problem. It's to have a conversation and gain understanding from each other. A chance to be curious. It's going to keep coming up in one form or another until women feel the same freedom as men. The freedom to walk though the woods and not be automatically afraid of any man they come across. I see that as very, very far in the future.
But, I think the more conversations we can have like this in public, the closer we are to that reality. It's a mass attitude change, not a tune up.
@SBG said,
men in my life - the drive is to "fix it" and move on/get it over with when what I really want is for them to listen...
Oh, you said it! Almost verbatim, in fact.
@Unscented_Lemon Pretty much. Announcing yourself as nice is really saying “cheesy sales presentation in process”. Usually selling you a time share full of bullshit. Anything to convince you they are nice because they say so. Kind of like me walking into the Powerball office and declaring my dog ate my lottery ticket but you still need to pay me millions.
A guy who doesn’t inject his customized description into the conversation is busy living being nice and everyone knows it. If no one knows it then you have a psychopath and you will quite possibly receive a customized invitation inviting you to his open house. Only you are the only one attending.
I'm not so sure. Yes, it may be a lie, but it may not be a lie.
Sometimes we have to call ourselves things if it's not obvious.
➵ TxTom 👌 certified nice guy
Edited to add follow up: @SBG I understand about wanting a man to just listen, but do you not want him to resolve issues, to "fix it," if he can?
That's kind of an innate characteristic in men.
not all "nice guys"
@TxTom more often than not, no
If I need something fixed, I'll present it like" hey can you help me with this? Or, What do you think?" If I'm just complaining or venting then I'm not looking for a fix.
@SBG
Going down a bit of a rabbit hole here so I’ll use a spoiler.
I have a lot to say on this one. It’s a topic that used to come up a lot years ago on personality type forums that I was on. Even though I’m a man, I also have the trait of often wanting to tell someone about a problem and just be heard rather than given potential solutions or advice.
The simplest way for two people to resolve this is to decide beforehand what kind of conversation it’s going to be. The person with the problem can decide if they just want support and to be heard in that moment, or if they want advice. And the person with the problem can offer whichever one. I’ve heard this being successful from a lot of different sources.
For me, there are different reasons why I just want to be heard instead of wanting a solution immediately. Sometimes I don’t feel comfortable sharing all of the details of the problem, which would change what the solutions would be…and it’s frustrating hearing solutions that don’t take those details into account. Sometimes I have a hard time conveying all of the details of a problem or why certain solutions cause more problems for me than they would someone else.
Sometimes there are multiple solutions to a problem and none are optimal, and it’s a matter of choosing which one is least painful for me. But it takes me time to process all of that, and what really helps is having someone else there to support me emotionally while I go through that process.
Sometimes I just need time to get ready to deal with a potential solution. I may already know what it is, but what I need is someone on my side to help make me feel better so I can more effectively get ready for it.
So a lot of times it’s not about the problem itself, it’s about me building trust with the person I tell it to. It’s about feeling that they care about me, not just that they care about the problem and are trying to fix it just like they would anything else.
This isn’t to say that I’m never at fault with this. There are times when I need to be better at asking for help instead of trying to do everything on my own. There are times when I need to be more humble and be willing to listen to others’ advice. There are times when I’m too closed-minded to potential solutions and can save myself pain by being more open minded. There are times when asking for others’ advice sooner would save me pain.
However, sometimes others’ advice also isn’t good or isn’t the best either. Or maybe it is for them, but not for me. My decisions ultimately fall on me. So it can be frustrating to ask for someone’s advice, and have them say, “See?” when they’re right but having nothing to say when they’re wrong. Or, for me to follow their advice, have it not work out as well for me as it would for them, and have them say something like, “I don’t see why, it was good advice” or “You just didn’t follow it right.”
So that’s why the trust is so important. The more I trust someone, and know that they’re support me unconditionally, the more I’ll start asking for their advice and taking it seriously. Because I know no matter how the situation goes, I can always rely on them to continue to support me.
I do think there are times when someone makes the same mistakes again and again and again and only keeps on complaining about it without making any effort to solve the problem. So it definitely can get excessive if a problem never gets solved. However, I think at that point the other person if fully in the right to say, “I understand this is a problem for you, but if you’re going to complain about the same problem and never make any effort to improve or fix it, then I don’t want to listen to it any more.”
So as simple as these situations may seem to some, I know for me, they always aren’t.
And choosing the bear over a strange man is not the same as thinking all men are scum.
Thank you!👍
@WriterGF Lol! 😄 If I actually thought that, then I would not have given birth to my son 15 years ago. Really appreciate your comment!😁🫂
And as his mother, I've been hard on raising him up to NOT BE scum. Seriously, I really have.😁👍
watch the movie Cocaine Bear
@HumbleBaron 😄 The actual bear, that movie was based on just died. That's all it did was die! It didn't go on any murdering rampage or anything, it's stuffed and on display in a museum in Tennessee...Maybe?🤔😁
@Katota, sorry, I don't know what you're referring to.