Nature or nurture

LionsFanLionsFan
in General

When I was an undergrad Psychology Major at Michigan State University, I was briefly a Teaching Assistant in a course called Human Sexuality 101. I lived in two different dormitories before switching to apartment living. I did not meet a single trans person in 4 years. The issue was never discussed in class.

I spent nearly 5 years as a caseworker. One year taking Medicaid applications. Two years Basic Family Services and two years Employment and Training counseling. I met one trans person. They were seeking financial help for proposed surgery.

In the next 32 years, I worked at several major health insurance companies. I met thousands of employees at Open Enrollment and Health Fairs. Worked on unique claim problems, appeals, and plan design. Not a single issue, question or disputed coverage related to trans. Not one.

Things have obviously changed. Can it truly be nature or is it nurture?

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Comments

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod
    edited June 2024

    It's not an either/or question, it's much more complex than that.

    Archaeological and documentary evidence of trans people goes back several thousand years.

    As a matter of logic, your anecdotal evidence is evidence that trans people have become more visible. It is not evidence that there are more of them than in the recent past in one specific country.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    Share your experiences as a mental health professional who works with LGBT people, and there will be something to talk about.

    And a couple of corrections:

    I did not meet a single trans person in 4 years.

    You did not meet a single person who you knew was trans in 4 years.

    I met one trans person.

    You met one person who you knew was trans.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited June 2024

    I honestly question the sincerity of this thread and whether it was started with good intentions and actual curiosity. Seems like agenda pushing..I hope it wasn't started for the purpose of starting flame wars. There are plenty of smoldering dumpsters for you to toss kindling on if that's your intent . But since it's here anyway, thank you for the platform. To me it's definitely nature, however you do have to factor in the environment we are now in and how acceptance and community and not living in fear plays a crucial role in things. If you are in fear or live in an intolerant society, you are much less likely to live your truth as your true self .

    My personal opinion as a non trans person is that there is more support and recognition as well and acceptance now, so people are going to feel more confidence around exploring that side of themselves.and those feelings. They are open to being their true selves. There is community and support that they did not used to have .

    I am born and raised in Alabama . I was part of the punk rock scene, that was generally more accepting of LGBTQ people, so I knew people who were maybe not trans, but were gay ahd bi. Some people I knew did dress as the opposite gender from time to time, however at that time it was more so referred to as crossdressing. There was no support and people were afraid to be their true selves. Not only was it not accepted, there was also no understanding at all about LGBTQ people so there was no effort on the public or expectations to be empathetic and compassionate. I saw horrible things first hand. People beaten and bullied . Not like today, where there might be some unkind words on Reddit (or Cuddle Comfort ). I am talking 15 on 1 until their face is no longer recognizable. I've known people who were raped by neanderthals all the while joking that they were 'fucking the dyke out of them'. My best friend from childhood was gay and I was part of helping him get the courage to come out to his friends . But then his dad found out and at 16 he was sent to live with his mother in Florida because his dad kicked him out .

    I have to say that while I am ashamed of how we have treated LGBTQ people in earlier times, that I am also very hopeful and joyful that we are now in a time where they can be celebrated and supported and loved. My son met his first trans partner in high school at the Magic City Acceptance Center here in Birmingham, which is a community support and acceptance group for LGBTQ youth and teens that meets in a Methodist church meeting space.no less . He and his new current (yes he has had two relationships with trans men) trans partner can live peacefully without fearing that their neighbors will harass them or not be hired for a job. My mother and I and son and his partner are going to my aunt's house today actually, to see my out of town cousins and their family who are in town from Texas. Their transgender son as well as their gay son will be there as well.

    I am ashamed of Alabama and the souths history in it's treatment of this community that is so dear to my heart . But I am also very proud with the steps that have been taken to overcome that . And while there are certainly still many issues and many hills to climb , I know for certain that those being more vocal and confident with exploring and expressing themselves and their true nature and true selves would not be able to have done this so openly back in the day . When you aren't given being open and out as an option, then of course it's going to be suppressed.

  • LionsFanLionsFan
    edited June 2024

    @CuddleDuncan

    The sample size goes WAY beyond anecdotal

  • LionsFanLionsFan
    edited June 2024

    @Unscented_Lemon So you're saying it's a Mental Health issue? Many agree

    I guess I need to point out that a welfare caseload is not devoid of a wide spectrum of folks with mh issues. There is considerable in service training after the BS degree

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    I will answer but I think the thread was started to dismiss the transgendered. Essentially it is nature and science is quickly closing in that transgendered people actually are physiologically closer to their desired sex than their birth sex.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6235900/

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    I believe it is a combination of nature and nurture.

    There are a few indisputable facts but the interpretation of those facts is often influenced by personal beliefs. There is abundant evidence that testosterone levels of men around the world (and in the U.S. in particular) have been declining the past couple of decades. From Urology Times…

    “After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001). Mean total testosterone decreased from 1999-2000 (605.39 ng/dL), 2003-2004 (567.44 ng/dL), 2011-2012 (424.96 ng/dL), 2013-2014 (431.76 ng/dL), and 2015-2016 (451.22 ng/dL; all P < .0001).”

    That is a 25% drop in average testosterone levels in less than 20 years. From the same article…

    “According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.”

    https://www.urologytimes.com/view/testosterone-levels-show-steady-decrease-among-young-us-men

    Another article from Forbes (which contains links to several highly respected, peer reviewed journal articles) discussed falling testosterone levels among men (especially younger men). Here is a relevant quote from the article but I would encourage everyone interested to read the whole article and the peer reviewed articles it cites.

    “What’s behind all the downward trends? The answer is complicated. The decline in testosterone levels is almost certainly linked to higher rates of obesity (which suppresses testosterone) and may be linked to lower rates of smoking in men (since nicotine is a potent aromatase inhibitor). In the 2007 study, however, the age-matched declines persisted after controlling for these variables. Many observers put more weight on increased exposure to environmental toxins, such as pesticides, parabens, and chemicals common in household products like phthalates and bisphenol A.

    Also playing a role are long-term shifts in the ways we work and live. Young men are far less likely to hold jobs in manual labor, so they don’t have to be as physically strong as previous generations.”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @LionsFan In that people like you cause LGBT people to have mental health issues, yes. But also that in a confidential session with a professional therapist might be the only place a lot of LGBT people feel safe coming out as LGBT.

    Coming out to unsafe people like you results in harassment, assault, discrimination, etc. Just look how offended you are that there are trans people asserting their right to live.

    @TheFunCartel This was absolutely started in order to troll. Especially after the other threads have died down.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @JohnR1972 Testosterone drops are linked to diabetes and heart disease. The studies I posted are brain mapping and physiological traits existing in transgendered and people with GD. While testosterone plays a small role, much of the physiological is established at birth and why the desire for an opposite sex is not something that just happens.

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod

    @LionsFan I don't understand why you would think sample size has any bearing on whether evidence is anecdotal. What do you believe the connection to be?

  • LionsFanLionsFan
    edited June 2024

    It's clear the group with personal agendas has decided to lash out at the messenger.

    After reading @JohnR1972 , I see I should have added environmental factors with nature and nurture. Nurture being how you were raised and socialized.

    I have worked along side gay men, lesbians, and Bi-sexual women. Dated several of these women, cuddled some.
    There were gays in my broad circle as far back as HS. My nephew's son came out as trans about a year ago. Those are my anecdotes and experiences.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    The psychiatric community has also struggled with treating people with gender dysphoria and has changed the name of it several times because of the stigma it creates for patients from those in the community at-large who do not understand much of the information.

    As science puts together the pieces of the puzzle of GD and the transgender experience they are getting a better picture of what occurs. The physiological differences are at birth in the cortex and as the individual becomes more aware that try as they might their identity, feelings and even physical attributes do not pair with others of the same gender. This is when GD manifests itself and it can occur at an early age.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    It's clear the group with personal agendas has decided to lash out at the messenger.

    Recent Scientific studies I posted is an attack on you? Or do they just not fit your agenda? You asked a question and I answered without attacking you.

  • LionsFanLionsFan

    This is complicated, but that doesn't, or shouldn't translate (no pun intended) to making a question off limits (trolling).

    An anecdote is a singular personal story. A thousand stories is data. Science uses data. There is no connection between the two terms.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @LionsFan

    My nephew's son came out as trans about a year ago.

    So you're trying to learn about what being trans means and involves, so you don't cause mental pain and anguish from intolerance? Good for you! But this isn't the way to do it.

  • LionsFanLionsFan
    edited June 2024

    @Unscented_Lemon

    Go back and read your attacks on me. You make a LOT of assumptions. All negative. Chip on the shoulder stuff.

    And I'm creating an unsafe environment?

    The last time my nephew and his son [pre coming out] came to town, I hosted them for a gun safety class in my living room. I then took them to the range to shoot...quite SAFELY for us all.

  • LionsFanLionsFan

    @@Unscented_Lemon

    My experience covers over 50 years, not just 4. I have never and would not question your right to live. Stop the hyperbole. Your rhetoric hurts your position.

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod

    @LionsFan ah, now I see the misunderstanding.

    From the OED:
    Anecdotal evidence; information or evidence based on reports of individual cases rather than systematic research or analysis.

    You presented a non-systematic report of one individual case: yours.

    A scientific approach would collect data in a non-biased way (i.e removing the subjective element as much as possible) from a sample population normalised for age, socio-economic factors, etc.

    If you had a thousand stories that would be data, but just because you have data doesn't mean you have science.

  • LionsFanLionsFan

    @CuddleDuncan

    I was the observer of a 1000 stories

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    The sample size goes WAY beyond anecdotal

    @LionsFan Thats not what you presented though. You presented your experiences, not a sample size WAY beyond anecdotal. Why not present that sample size?

  • LionsFanLionsFan
    edited June 2024

    @TheFunCartel

    What exactly does "dismiss them" mean?

    Where did I say your links were an attack on me?

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @TheFunCartel The Gender Dysphoria Bible is an excellent resource for understanding gender dysphoria. A lot of newly-hatched trans people find it incredibly useful for understanding themselves and what they've been through. And of course anyone who wants to understand better can read it.

    I say newly-hatched because the term for a trans person who has not yet realized that they're trans is an egg. The process of realizing that you are trans is known as your egg cracking. Although in my case my egg didn't just crack, it suddenly shattered.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited June 2024

    @LionsFan
    Based on your age and your account I can only assume that this was during a time period where people were not as accepting or supportive to trans people and LGBTQ people, which is a big reason why there probably were not many trans people who you recall encountering. They were there, however in my personal experience based on people in LGBTQ community who ive grown up with as both friends and family members, they were in the closet because of fear so were not able to explore this further or live their truth.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @LionsFan Look it up. And look up anecdotal while you are at it. But I will bite. Your original post gave heavy emphasis to your personal experience of only encountering one trans person in your life. This topic is polarizing and has been laid to rest and you come in and in a nutshell say I have only seen one trans person and they wanted money. The implication from the tone is this is a very small group and they want to drain resources. If America is really an inclusive country then the size of the group (which is much larger than you infer) should not matter.

    For the growth of the transgender community you can do a search at Harvard Health and there is a lot of research on this.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @LionsFan

    As I was told in another thread, if you didn't want replies, you shouldn't have posted this.

    Safety has nothing to do with guns. It's about knowing people will be accepting and supportive, rather than hostile, dismissive, demeaning, and refusing to accept their identity. Given that your post seems to be about questioning the legitimacy of people being transgender, you are definitely an unsafe person. Especially since you have guns. There are a lot of anti-LGBT gun nuts out there that wouldn't hesitate to "take matters into their own hands".

    You're questioning my right to live as I am, which to a lot of people, especially young people, is questioning their right to live. Many who can't find acceptance and understanding, especially from their families, commit suicide as a result.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    Based on your age and your account I can only assume that this was during a time period where people were not as accepting or supportive to trans people and LGBTQ people, which is a big reason why there probably were not many trans people who you recall encountering.

    Plus, MSU is a pretty conservative school. I doubt LGBTQ people would have found much acceptance there at that time.

  • LionsFanLionsFan

    @Unscented_Lemon
    From age 18 to 28, statistically speaking, how many trans folks should I have met. You can assume I interviewed 1,000s of people all ages 18-90?

    I think you confuse MSU with Hillsdale.

    You're delusional if you think all replies are equal. I wasn't soliciting insults based on false assumptions.

    @TheFunCartel

    https://areomagazine.com/2018/10/02/academic-grievance-studies-and-the-corruption-of-scholarship/

  • LionsFanLionsFan
    edited June 2024

    Since no discussion seems possible, and insults are treated as fact, this thread should be closed/locked. Peace out.
    @mark
    @Shake

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @LionsFan Your post is not a study but an opinion piece. In addition, if you bothered to go to Harvard Health, the studies they house are not all within the academic community. It is a library of studies throughout the world. Your citation does indicate a bias on your part and a dismissiveness of anything that doesn’t fit your views. I am not going to participate in a flame war intended to dismiss ANY group of people. Especially when it is built strictly upon opinions.

  • pmvinespmvines

    @LionsFan
    I tried to give you the benefit of doubt when you started this thread. But it now seems that you started it merely to stir the already warm pot for an agenda that you don't really want to have a conversation about to begin with. It is antagonistic, and disingenuous. And now you are trying to play a victim because you aren't getting support for your rhetoric. I respect people's opinions even when I don't agree with them, but not when made in bad faith. I just don't respect that.

This discussion has been locked.