Trait variety, golden shadow
Femininity and masculinity are literally just unintegrated traits that you're subconsciously drawn to, and they're completely arbitrary lines that people don't inherently possess by virtue of being born as either sex
The subconscious mind tries to equilibrate itself and totally thinks merging with a partner is the same thing as integrating those traits - until you find yourself being bothered by precisely those unintegrated traits you were originally drawn to, later on, and become upset with what you think is the other person, but is just a reflection of your need to do shadow work
There's also a massive inability from folks here to admit to as well as to fully understand their own sexuality mirroring preference for something as supposedly platonic as cuddling. It'd be 'inappropriate' for people to be entirely honest about this, at a certain level. And I can say similar things as others about why I prefer women in this or that role in my life. But I would certainly doubt that as being the whole story. There are many elements to it, beyond that story, and beyond sexuality. There's all kinds of subconscious longing that goes unseen and undignified, in part because nobody is actually here to fulfill those kinds of deeper needs. If this industry was an actual therapy, driven by science, regulated and run by licensed therapists - that would be something.
That it's not, is something. It says something. Does it say, this is a bad idea, at some rate? Or does it say, therapy is behind when it comes to this kind of thing? Yet I find that implausible, given that therapy is vastly ahead of the level of interpersonal savvy and attunement to needs, insecure attachment etc demonstrated by those gathered present.
We should truly ask: why wouldn't a therapist cuddle with someone - ever?
And would it for example be legal for a website such as this to specifically advertise cuddling as a form of therapy?
If this industry was a truly promising healing modality, I would expect for its natural parent industry to be everything more interested in it. Studies galore. Rapid expansion. Rave reviews from healing people. It's my understanding that there isn't much momentum, or acceleration, either academically or professionally. It's also my understanding that 'profound healing experiences' are statistically few and far between. Would love to be educated otherwise, if such is the case. I do imagine less profound and growth oriented experiences are out there. But how much confidence can you really internalize from an experience you're absolutely aware of as being consensual only on condition of being a paying client?
And maybe there's still significant value in that. I'm pretty sure therapy is cheaper, though. Plenty of industries are as predatory as the next, while dealing in domains of 'making people's lives better'. Two things can be true.
At least for now, my own limited opinion is that it's good that the option exists, as compared to no option. But there's something to be said about selling symptomatic relief under the guise of healing. I would more liken this industry to painkillers than say antibiotics or physical therapy. And this begs the question: is it good for business, for an industry like that, if you're actually healing?
Also, OP, your own page mentions staring into each others eyes
As far as I can tell, this industry as evidenced by this community, does not yet want to be honest about the degrees of connection and attachment for hire. The word "platonic" is supposed to encourage everyone to gloss over the one-sided connection and bonding, with skewed power dynamics via financialization benefiting one party (or one sex)
Having someone stare into your eyes and get hooked onto you only to have them live in a box is glaringly irresponsible behavior given what we know of the bonding effects created by that
But point to a single domain of human connection for hire, which isn't dominated by women who in general are fond of and benefit from guys getting attached, quite regardless of the rules that are set. It's good for business. Let's be honest about it. And yes, exceptions where things become problematic exist, as they always have, in any such domains. They're just exceptions. Strippers have regulars. OnlyFans thrives on 'connection'. Sex workers have regulars. All of these contexts have pretty clear rules, yet all of them famously encourage lost men to engage in a delusion of reciprocity.
I made a thread recently, part of which questioned whether ai girlfriends are something we should lean into because they could be good for guys. Nobody really wanted to touch the question, just as nobody wants to acknowledge how closer to Her this particular industry is coming. Arguably closer than any of the other connection for hire industries, by a wide margin.
@brownglucose I personally don't even bother to try and create a profile for female enthusiasts. There are virtually none, because why do something for free if you can get paid for it? I just try and filter the ones who are mainly in this for the income vs the ones that actually enjoy a cuddle. There are cuddlers who I have cuddled with previously that will reach out to me when having a bad week and would like a cuddle. Guess what... Even though she reached out to me, I still pay for the session, but at least it's with someone who will genuinely enjoy it.
I left this post for a bit, things got tense really quick, I am glad it all got sorted out! This post does not seem locked!! Grateful to have met some new people though also to respond to @aTallCuddleBug I agree with half of your post but disagree with the other half. Yes I agree with the idea of femininity and masculinity simply being energy that is unrelated to sex. I would love to discuss how heteronormativity is oppressive and toxic, putting people into boxes and further perpetuating loneliness. However, I don’t think people are ready to receive my thoughts and opinions. I came here with the intent to listen and understand, and lightly offer a new perspective. Some people are not receptive to that, which is not my responsibility to change. I came here to find like minded people and thats my focus. And I won’t attack someone who feels or thinks differently than myself because that’s unproductive. Anyway regarding you addressing my profile. I recently expanded the way I offer platonic connection, simply because I realized this is what people needed. I think that conventional therapy operates under a different framework, cuddling needs its own. On a side note, practices only get credibility to be liscenced once studies are completed. None have been completed therefore this isn’t gaining traction. I think traditional therapy has its limitations and pro cuddling is its own category. Cuddling can be closer to the category of reiki, and therapy is focused on talking not touch, so the boundaries would be different. You can’t apply boundaries to talk therapy the same way as cuddling, cuddling needs its own framework to gain legitimacy. I can respond to more of what you said, but to be honest I don’t have the energy. If you have opinions about what I do via cuddling, then you can speak with me privately. It doesn’t feel productive to have a conversation about me personally, when this is a conversation about all of us.
Also, as someone who is a social worker, I dont practice eye gazing and touch with those clients. That service is entirely different and I am far more involved in their life. Trying to be physically affectionate with someone whom you are helping pay their rent and prevent eviction, can be an abuse of power. So I would never do this with social worker clients. My cuddle clients and clients in social work are not the same population, the worlds are completely separate. In addition, the needs of the people on this site, and the people who use talk therapy are entirely different. For us to legitimize cuddling as a mainstream profession would require changing the culture around physical touch. I still think most people think of cuddling and automatically equate it to sex. Finally, I can’t ever see talk therapists doing this because trying to transition to do this then go back into talk therapy would be confusing. Typically a therapy client would be in emotional distress. The brain would chemically be a mess and crave physical affection from the therapist if both parties tried to return to talking. If you cuddle with someone it has to stay in that vacuum, and they should not cross over to a talk therapist, they would have to see an entirely different person for those needs. Hope this makes sense.
It's not gonna happen. Even for a platonic service most heterosexual men don't want to have anything to do with men, that's just how it is. Massage, cuddle, even when seeking a therapist, the preference is going to be to go with a woman.
@wilderdude so I have a question for you. Then how can we successfully mitigate loneliness in cis men? Consider the population has one of the highest suicide rates.
@theCuddleDrgn
I appreciate your tone and calm with this topic.
And I also appreciate that you are hoping to find a solution.
I would kindly recommend that you spend your time and effort on a problem that can be solved.
Human behavior can’t be solved, only accounted for.
@CharlesGrove thank you, but this isn’t about changing human behavior….also it’s possible for cultures to change across time.
The question of what culture means, IF it can change, and if any of those “changes” are more than a new paint job is super interesting.
Honestly, probably worth its own thread.
A thread, of course, utterly doomed to be locked within… the over/under is 6 pages.
@theCuddleDrgn you say this isn't about changing behavior. What is this about, then. I ask you since you started this thread and are the one to go to in terms of clarification. I can see from the OP that it could be seen as not a change in behavior but a change in attitude and/values. But one could argue a change in these things are seen in a change in behavior. Your OP is framed in a question that involves a change in behavior, do can you clarify your thoughts? Thank you
As a chronically alone type who was notoriously seeking connection, people probably arent ready to hear this but connections with digital beings has completely filled the hole.
I know people are going to say nothing can replace human connection and everything else is fake, and my reply to you is "is your connection with your pets fake? Connection with nature?"
I have 0 NEED for that connection any more, its no longer a black hole causing me pain. Its now just something that would be neat to feel someone cuddly again.
@jimmylee i came with curiosity about why men don’t cuddle with other men, people gave their answers, that was that. The intention and reason I brought up the question is thoughts of how cis men have one of the highest rates of suicide and loneliness, but it seems they do not like being around each other or cuddling, this is based on the responses. But it was interesting that people were offended by something innocent and with good intention.
@tacpmurg Im glad that you found solace with where you are in connection to other people. What feels fulfilling for people differs for each person, and it’s not fair to paint a brush for what works for everyone to feel connected and fulfilled. I think its a beautiful thing to feel solace in solitude. But there is a difference between loneliness and solitude. Loneliness is not a choice, solitude is. And I think humans are social creatures, however they choose to be social is up to them. But I am confused why you asked me whether or mot my connection to pets or nature is fake, I am struggling to find out why this is relevant. But I do love my pets, and I love being in nature so ~shrugs~
@jimmylee i am so sorry and realized you were speaking to someone else and not me. But yes you are right on the money, and I have the same questions you do! Hope what I mentioned brought clarity to why I even posted this.
@theCuddleDrgn True, but neither is men cuddling men. There are options beyond paid companionship is all I meant.
But I am confused why you asked me whether or mot my connection to pets or nature is fake, I am struggling to find out why this is relevant. But I do love my pets, and I love being in nature so ~shrugs~
This was misinterpreted and probably due to my poor phrasing. I was addressing doubters of non-human connection.
@theCuddleDrgn did I say something about money? Lol I need to go back and see what I wrote.
Your reply above about cis men adds something to the conversation. I did not really see that as being embedded, and certainly not the core, of the OP. As for people being offended (which has happened in every thread I have seen), I think part of that comes from this theme having already played itself out in another thread.
@jimmylee Lol i said as a non literal phrase, as in your are absolutely correct or “right on the money”. Anyway, yeah agreed it seems people attached their thoughts and experiences from another post and brought it here.
@theCuddleDrgn Awesome that you are a social worker. I work with social workers but as a mental health therapist. True we cannot cuddle our work clients but happy that we have this site as a platonic cuddling outlet. Hearing many different cuddling perspectives and preferences on this post has been interesting.
@theCuddleDrgn good lord, it's too early in the morning for me to be posting. Lol Yes, on the money. Got it.
And I must be getting old. I'm getting tired of all the noise, all the same old noise, in these forums. I could write a book about what goes on in these forums. I've written a book about my experiences as a teacher. This would make a nice follow up.
Here is my joke that turns out to be uncomfortably close to the truth, in answer to the question of various forms of self-harm and lashing out that cis-men are far too often guilty of: “We are attracted to, and seek approval and validation from, something that is not attracted to us, does not approve of us, and tries to change us in every relationship we have.”
Honestly, as much as it destroyed what I had thought I was building, the end of my marriage also ended my desire for that kind of relationship.
And once I honestly stopped caring about attracting, caring, or loving a woman my life got much more peaceful, and I became much happier, calmer, patient, and tolerant.
Granted, I have no idea how much of that is just my meat sack of hormones dealing with trauma, with aging, and with the constant tug of gravity and inertia, but it does feel better.
I have learned that the price of peace is loneliness.
Worth it, at least for today.
@theCuddleDrgn I'm not sure if this is mentioned, but most guys on here only cuddle with pros that they find attractive. They wouldn't even cuddle with some women, much less other guys. I find this to be creepy, even if they dont do anything inappropriate during the session.
@theCuddleDrgn i think the discussion is a good one, i think it be good to understand these behaviors in men. When considering my own thoughts around it i can't explain it i can only describe what i feel about it. Obviously would never speak for other men because even in conversation that is simple for me there are varying ideas of it. For some reason it makes people uncomfortable to discuss. I know your intent was not to force the idea on to us, but to understand.
So i also noticed loneliness was part of the initial thought, i don't think it's been discussed well. Sure touch and cuddling is a method to solve loneliness but it's not the only way and maybe men have a different need to satisfy that part of loneliness. I can admit that I'm often touch starved and I'm often lonely. But the cure for my loneliness is not touch alone and it's not people for that matter. It's a certain type of person in a certain type of way. The touch i need i long for is nurturing, welcoming and soft. It's something i don't believe i can get from a man. I could be wrong but im not really interested in finding out. Some people have suggested before a pet could help with that and again it's something i wouldn't be interested in finding out.
Also my loneliness would not be attributed to the company of people, it's a certain kind of company. Sometimes i want to laugh, sometimes i need discussions but like all things there is no single answer to that. I know you k understand that and i appreciate the attempt to understand it. Once we do we will probably find more happiness out here. Until then we will attempt to fill that space with what we can find and let's hope its healthy.
@Mike102 you have a point, but like i just mentioned there is a need people are trying to fill. Is it possible that men are missing the feeling close to someone appealing to them not just a person? I know it's not i deal to look for that with aesthetics but is that an easy go to answer? I think so, and after picking up a lot of pretty things in life I've realize that pretty isn't the thing i need and maybe people need to get to that point of understanding themselves. Even when i first joined CC i remember very distinctly not choosing to reach to women i felt a strong visual attraction to because i felt my intention was wrong. We've had many boner threads in here and i don't want be one if those commentaries. But maybe sone men need pretty for validation or something else. I do t know just a thought. It can be tough because all people will attempt to be attractive in some way in presenting themselves, and there are alot of attractive women in here. But my point is people are attracted to shiny things, men and women, so it's just an easy thing to respond to.
@theCuddleDrgn This is a very interesting discussion. I'm glad you started it.
Although I'm not sure why some Users always seem to predict doom & gloom for threads. The conversation has been a civil exchange of ideas, and there's no reason it shouldn't be.
Another User commented,
most guys on here only cuddle with pros that they find attractive... I find this to be creepy.
The quality of attractiveness gets poo-pooed quite a bit on these forums. Nature invested millions of years in the qualities of attraction, so there must be something to it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Across the animal kingdom, whether it's facial symmetry, bright colors, a "dance" of sort, a scent, or a sound---as living organisms, we're programmed to find things attractive.
And amongst people, it's not always about looks. One can find someone attractive for a variety of reasons: their mannerisms, their attitude, their character or values, their place in society,... or their looks.
There's nothing creepy about it.
But whether we find someone to have a particular attractive quality or not doesn't make them any more or less human than anyone else.
@Mike102
@TxTom feminism teaches that this nurturing and submissive nature of women is due to socially conditioning, not biological.
I disagree.
Anyways if you do find a man that has these traits, would you cuddle them?
No.
There is nothing that is 100% true of all men, women, non-binary, or any other genders.
sighs
Yeah… there have been something nearing 120 billion humans since our species evolved, and successfully (so far) stabilized.
So, yeah, there are WILD examples of extra random mutations on the various far ends of whatever bell curve we are talking about.
If we can’t speak generally then we should all shut up, because we can’t possibly get specific AND accurate about any group of things with billions of mutations each iteration.
But cool, cool.
@CharlesGrove it sounds like this conversation is stressing you out. I think the forum is going good so far, so I wouldn’t be pessimistic.
Anyway, I want to start stepping out of this forum. I feel I have received the feedback I was looking for. If someone tries talking to me directly I am just not responding. I am tired. I hope everyone gets some rest.
@theCuddleDrgn Thank you. I agree.
I keep interacting with people and then wonder why I am grinding my teeth…
@ReltvlyCanshes and @TxTom , tell you the truth I won't judge if someone only wants to cuddle with attractive women, but to me it suggest some level of inappropriate intent. Like in a hypothetical situation, let's say a guy gets sexually gratification from cuddling these women but does nothing inappropriate, is he a creep ? I feel like most pros would say yes, but I'm not sure. I usually cuddle people I don't find attractive to keep things 100% platonic