@Adento
All your responses are 💯
When I was a kid I remember the car being loaded up and we would go visit our parents friends or relatives. With the advent of the internet, you can just drop them a note and catch up on things. HOWEVER, it's not the same as social interaction, seeing facial expressions or even giving hugs and waves goodbye. It's very sad....
IDK, I’ve been on public transit in several major cities and metros in the US, including the DMV and 15-20 years ago, people were reading newspapers or books instead of interacting. That said, I think people have more social anxiety and stressors than before. One of the things I love about the west coast is there is a lot of third space, as well as low cost and free entertainment, like parks museums, etc., and I find myself talking to people in those spaces often.
While that may be true overall due to technology, the DC metro has never been a social place. I've been around for decades before cellphones were around. It was pretty much the same except switch cellphones out with newspapers, books, headphones, or staring at the wall/napping.
Eh. Just sounds like disgruntled person yelling at clouds to me.
The DMV is a great place to grow up as a K-12 student or to be a college kid. Generally safe, pleasant, and lots to do.
Other than that, not so much. It's expensive and nobody really stays here long as an adult due to cost of living, political transitions, temporary business assignments, etc. People are more concerned about who you work for than who you are.
Ditto @Minestrone101
As a native, I can attest that the DC Metro has always been relatively quiet, even before the internet and mobile devices.
I'm going to have to agree with this. I've always been big on southern hospitality, like welcoming new neighbors to the neighborhood and talking to them a few times a week, offering to lend a hand if they need help with a car or moving a heavy piece of furniture, etc, but as more people have moved here from big cities, they seem to bring the big city confrontational attitudes and don't have that sense of community that is needed in neighborhoods. It's not about being owed conversation, or obligated to talk to people, but it creates an uneasy atmosphere where neighbors don't get to know one another anymore and people don't want to make new friends. That is sad to see
Personally, I don't think we've lost social interaction - I think it's just changed faster than people's coping strategies.
Any time someone complains about the demise of society, I'm reminded that the same complaints have happened with every generation for all of recorded history.
There's always growing pains around new technologies and social mores. Objectively, humans have better health, less violence, and more connection with peers than ever before. But because things are new and different, those that are struggling with adapting feel regular pressures more heavily.
It's people trying to jump head first into ultra marathons without learning to walk/run efficiently & safely first, then complaining that their legs hurt. Instead of recognizing that the lack of training is the problem, or the hubris of jumping into an entirely new environment without first learning how best to do so, people tend to blame anything and everything else.
Humans gotta human 🤷🏻♀️
@cuddlefaery It's hard to actually compare the ages unless we've lived through them and for that we'd have to be 100s or even 1000s of years old with similar clarity in mind.
I agree that people have always complained about our society slipping away. However I did not feel this way in the 80s when bank interest rates were 20% and society seemed to have this wide-eyed wonder of growth, experimentation, and exploration. At least here in America.
We can come across later and say well, this was not that good actually because people's attitudes were some way towards a marginalized group of people.
People also want to harken back to what they consider a golden age of simpler times, so really it's all in our memories of what we lived through.
However today stands in a contrast because of exactly what you say. Technology is outpaciing our coping strategies and is now involved with every aspect of our lives. It's an exponential curve that is racing more and more straight up.
This is causing a lot of rifts. Our economy (more talking correlation and maybe not causation) does not go through recovery periods anymore.
Humans having better health is something I would want to ask for more context. What is the metric that defines that. Is it we are living longer? That does not necessarily show quality of life.
I know our access and affordability of healthcare is getting worse. Prices used to be able to be paid out of pocket.
But now our healthcare system plays the game of inflating the prices to the point we cannot afford being outside of the system.
I also don't think there is less violence. And once again, it's hard to compare. What has changed? We can see more of the world around us. We are no longer confined to local spaces.
@Huggycatbear 💯 to all of that.
From a social psychology and technology-advancement-pace standpoint, from the advent of the telephone in the late 1800s but particularly since 2007 with the explosion of the digital age, we are living in unique times that can’t be compared to any other time in history. And each generation is largely devolving from the last in the realm of social skills. Not everyone, but a large enough proportion to be noteworthy which gives credence to the OP’s points. Loneliness is the new smoking from a chronic health crisis standpoint.
@dennis22554 i'm right now sitting at a very popular coffee shop in Columbus. That's really big and everyone's either on their phone, but of course people bring their own friends to talk with but if you're by yourself, it's kind of lonely. Right now I'm on my phone texting this when I should be looking around for someone to talk to.. the thing is, I've met so many strangers in my life and got to listen to their stories mainly before the smart phone. Some people have just very interesting lies and you wish you could talk to them.
@Adento --There's no conscious effort to innovate in ways that make sure we get what we need, only incentive to give us something we want…Great thought very insightful
I always thought it would be a great idea. If on the plane they could put talkers together and people that like to sleep or work in a different section. Or in a coffee shop, they could have a designated area for people that work. So that social people can have their space.
@TheMidnightOwl i wouldn’t say loneliness is as bad in itself as how you respond to it. A lot of people handle loneliness very poorly by engaging in unhealthy activities like alcoholism, binge eating, drug use, etc. but other people use it to be more productive and find peace.
Has society always been changing? Absolutely, positively, without a doubt, YES! Has the rate of change been the same? NO!
Nearly everyone, by default, uses “linear thinking” (I.e. “if I work twice as many hours, I will earn twice as much). But technology (and its impact on soiety) is not linear, it is exponential and many people struggle with exponential thinking.
My favorite example is doubling the thickness of a sheet of paper 50 times. Assume you have a sheet of paper just 0.01” thick (light weight card stock). DOUBLE that 0.01” 10 times (1,024 pieces of paper) and you now have a stack that is now 10.24” tall. How tall is that stack of paper if you double it another 40 times?
Over 177 million miles (almost a round trip to the Sun and back). That answer shocks most people because they “didn’t see it coming”. While society has always been changing, the rate of change we are currently experiencing is unprecedented and I don’t foresee it slowing down any time soon.
Today it is like driving 70 mph on the Interstate, at night. in heavy fog. We are out driving our headlights. By the time we recognize a problem (such as the NM jury this week finding Meta liable for harm to children and ordering them to pay a $375 million settlement) a lot of harm has already been done.
@Huggycatbear some data to back up my points: US violent crime rates over the last 50 years World-wide child mortality rate World-wide life expectancy data Quality of life indicators, specifically 2015 onward
When I spoke of many metrics being better than they ever have been, I am not talking just the US, just the past 50 years, etc. I'm taking a global & historical view in order to highlight patterns. This isn't the first technological revolution we humans have had. This isn't the first "loneliness epidemic" we've had to navigate. And sure, while we can't talk to people from the past to learn about their experiences, there is still a wealth of data that we can extrapolate from.
I'm not saying things don't suck for a lot of people, because they absolutely do - I'm saying that we humans have managed to improve our lives vastly over the course of history largely by looking forward instead of trying to emulate the past. Nostalgia is all well and good, but we should learn from the past rather than trying to return to it. We can look at what did objectively work in the past and adapt those things into the present, rather than trying to roll back.
@disneysamurai Solitude is not synonymous with loneliness. You’re describing solitude, which is necessary for our health and nervous system when we so choose to make time and space for it. Loneliness is not.
My point is the majority of people in western society today are increasingly physically and emotionally isolated = lonely, in unprecedented ways. We were meant to live in close knit supportive communities, and in western society that’s all but disappeared. Even when we’re with people it’s a fight to get them to look up from their devices long enough to truly engage — which leaves so many people experiencing a deep sense of pervasive loneliness — which is as toxic to our health as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. I’m not making this up or hyperbolizing for dramatic effect. This is what the research is showing — and that’s the effect of chronic loneliness on its own, completely separate from lifestyle choices.
Society has conditioned us all to believe it’s fine and ok to leave us all alone in our proverbial cribs to self-soothe, and this is the result. Pervasive loneliness/isolation leading to longterm ill health effects.
@JohnR1972 You are correct. The average person is not very bright, and also not considering the very real (much less, potential) future impacts of today’s choices, so the concept of exponentials, particularly in the context of my previous point, is far beyond many’s comprehension. 😂
This one has been around for a while but I still find it funny (in a dark, morbid way).
@TheMidnightOwl in counterpoint, though, there's a decent chunk of society who have experienced the opposite: an marked increase in community support, increase in social engagement, and improvement overall of mental health. It's less that social media and technology foster isolation and loneliness, and more that the majority of people have not learned how to utilize the tools, nor have learned the skills to balance and self-regulate their usage.
For people like myself, life without the technology would be far more isolating and inaccessible. Because prior to the internet boom and social media dominance, people like me were the isolated ones - it was difficult to find community because we were in the minority. So as the technology developed, we were some of the first to embrace it's capabilities and learn how to use it as a tool for connection. The problem is, the vast majority of people already had the social connection and support - so they didn't learn the skills. It made them more vulnerable to the negative side. Basically, the people most negatively impacted now are the ones who normally would have an advantage. They're getting to experience a bit of what life is like for the minorites and realizing how much it sucks to be isolated.
I think this is more growing pains than an actual societal shift towards the negative. I think people will eventually learn the skills, learn how to use the tools effectively, and learn from the communities who have been thriving and improving with their use rather than declining.
@cuddlefaery I'm so happy you feel more connections, community, and support in this day and age.
Sorry, I don't see this as a skill issue for those who are not experiencing the same.
Not everyone wants to use social media or technology as a means to connect. That doesn't mean they are behind in development or lacking. Everyone values and craves different types of connections. And in the age of smart phones, AI solutions, dating apps, etc. people can find the support they need to be lacking.
As far as using statistical data, I feel it diminishes and marginalizes people's lived experiences.
I think there's a lot of good to modern technology and a lot of bad. Saying that even as a tech industry employee. Really depends on how you use it. There's remarkable achievements like the metrics @cuddlefaery provided, which probably means there's been more good than bad - but it's also easier than ever to misuse technology as an addictive substance, especially social media. Doesn't help that social media employees have admitted it's optimized for your addiction.
You could use social media to connect with friends across the country. Or you could abuse it and watch so many tiktoks that you don't even feel like going for genuine human interaction anymore. Unfortunately a lot of people do abuse it addictively, and it's probably worse in younger generations since we give kids access to potentially addictive technology at a young age without teaching them how to exercise caution about it. That's the equivalent of giving a kid access to your whole tool shed and telling them to just have fun. It could actually enhance social connection when used right, but it often tears our ability for connection apart when it's misused.
@Thenewestguy i'm a little bit younger than you but I too remember block parties, potluck, I lived in the country and my parents regularly had the in-laws and the cousins and aunts and uncles over for picnics in our backyard. Horseshoes and throwing a football, making pyramids with my cousins sitting around laughing and having the best time. I remember a couple years ago. I was just reminiscing about the 70s to myself and I just had a tear rolled out my eye because I really missed it. I'm glad I grew up when I did. Because even when people get together today, they still have their phones with them and they're not totally in the present moment unless they decide to leave their phones in the car or at home. I wish payphones could come back so if you needed to call someone you could, but now you absolutely have to have your cell phone with you.
This is just a sappy reminiscing post. But those who are my age and older will remember, and even some of the younger people may remember.
@cuddlefaery can definitely see where you’re coming from. Also back then, being socially isolated had much more severe consequences. Nowadays it’s a widely recognized issue, and resources are being created to help remedy it - like cuddle therapy! Hopefully there will be a more positive shift where you can go out and meet people regularly again, but without having to booze it up
@Kozykim... Yep, as kids we would go fishing in the creek or hide in cornfields...or just make popcorn and watch tv w/family/friends.... It does take one back to better times.
I love that I can literally have a master’s degree in social work and have spent hordes of time researching and writing academic papers on this very topic, and people will still try to argue that I don’t know what I’m talking about because of some individual exceptions or focusing solely on irrelevant tangents. 😂
Technology can be great to help stay in touch with people. I’m not arguing that point. The point is that technology cannot replicate in-person, face-to-face, nervous system co-regulating human connection and emotional support. And that community support as we knew it for millennia is disappearing as the majority of people now isolate while mindlessly staring at screens the majority of the day and night (and not even really interacting 1:1 in any meaningful way with other humans) because tech companies literally paid psychologists to help them engineer products to make us addicted to them, which are ruining our brains and if done while still developing has a massive impact on social skill development which leads to more isolation and has all become a self perpetuating feedback loop. And explains a gigantic portion of why this generation is one of the most isolated, depressed, and anxious probably in the history of humanity.
If you don’t believe me, research it yourself.
guess we could all do some research and try cuddling the screen
@TheMidnightOwl I see you. And I agree that more ways to connect does not necessarily equate to quality in connection. More options and connecting with people through the lens of the internet proves antithetical to people wanting to stay and do the work for a chance at deeper connection.
I am happy that though in the case of others who are immunocompromised or have different situations that could be challenging to go out and meet, that they have more options for connection, support, and community that they might not have before.
Moving forward, since you have education and experience in this area, what can we do to help us through the loneliness and isolation?
I have created solutions that have been working for me. I don't mind sharing them here. But it's always good to get more ideas.
Another thing that can make things difficult is that going out nowadays is not economically feasible, especially among the younger generations. Going to eat out and get a few drinks, etc can really add up even if you’re being budget conscious. Hell just going out and getting fast food can be difficult, especially when rent is due. Some of these social events you see on EventBrite can cost upward of $40 pp just to get in the door. I used to be a huge advocate of meetup but that app just completely got nuked.
@disneysamurai yeah, it's been difficult as an event/community organizer to find platforms for promoting and organizing events. Meetup has become innundated with commercial businesses, and increasingly expensive. Facebook groups have become a mess and an increasing number of people have been reluctant to use the platform for security and privacy issues. Discord has its own holes and pains, and a lot of people don't want to download another app if they're not already on it. There's some build-your-own community platforms, but they're usually incredibly expensive for grassroots and casual local groups.
It's been making me consider building my own website-based platform for the groups I organize, but that requires a lot of front work, advertising, and liability 🤦🏻♀️ there's definitely a giant gap in the tech market for community organizers.
Oh yeah I definitely agree @TheMidnightOwl, tech has some benefits socially but there's no replacement for genuine in-person social connection. Not even close. If you're using tech to replace the face-to-face connection that you could otherwise have, it'll be extremely damaging.
I can attest to the fact that tech companies gather metrics to try to maximize how long you stay on them, and how often you check in. If anyone is using technology to avoid in-person connection then that would definitely be an addictive misuse of tech. And unfortunately tons of people do, which the industry encourages and makes money off of.
Ideally the best use of tech should be to help people stay connected so they can set up more in-person meets or to add to existing in-person connection, but now a lot of people are misusing it to stay away from meeting people altogether. There is an exception for those who can't meet face-to-face due to health concerns and that seems to have been discussed already. I do know from the tech side there's basically a mountain of papers that online contact (even video calls) as a replacement for in-person contact has a number of very damaging effects. Some studies that the attention span measured from a chronic social media user is literally smaller than a goldfish brain's attention span. I'd love to message and hear about your academic papers too!
someone introduced me to chat gpt earlier. Seemed to be an ai with more intelligence, politeness and pleasantness than most humans seem to have. Maybe gimme those ai cuddles or ask what chat gpt thinks about cuddles, or meet in person to do the discussions about social interaction instead of going long distance on it. And yeah costs are ridiculous, which makes those pro prices ridiculous, basically just old rich dudes gonna afford that or people who willing to throw all their money on it. I think most in the world couldn't afford more than a few hours a month of it