Arguments, debates, and other civil disagreements

pmvinespmvines
edited March 2019 in General

I am giving a home to some of the tangents that otherwise detract from the other thread topics posted on the forums. Try to be adults and not start any flame wars. If you have a thought, idea, or question to pose, feel free to start something and see where it goes. In order to avoid confusion when multiple topics are started, please refer to the post topic you are replying to when posting .

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Comments

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited March 2019

    So in keeping with the purpose of the thread, i will go first.

    Topic for this post: Is being asexual more than simply not being very interested in sex, or is there more to it?

    I have friends of from all different walks of life. I have a few who describe themselves as asexual. My question, as ignorant as it may sound to some, is does not really being all that interested in sex negate a definition? For example, some people abstain for moralistic purposes. Some are simply nervous and shy. Some have a low sex drive due at times to a medical condition. A comparison i draw is the straight edge movement. I grew up in the punk / hardcore scene and straight edge was a thing for a while. However, not doing drugs doesnt necessarily make one straight edge. There was a life style and social aspect to it. So is being asexual a similar thing, where one is not necessarily only not all that interested in sex, but rather has more of deeper underlying ethos to how they define it? Or is it simply a title one gives themselves?

  • TouchIsTLCTouchIsTLC

    @pmvines great idea and preface for the thread, let's see how long the spirit lasts! Fingers and toes crossed!

    For my understanding of asexual - mind you this is coming from my personal interactions of ONE person I know that identifies this way that I've talked at length with on the topic of sexuality, pronouns and the like over the past few years.

    His position is this - I am asexual, meaning I do not see others in a sexual way, I don't have a "sex drive" so to speak of, I am not "turned on/aroused" by anything in a sexual manner. That does not mean I don't feel or derive pleasure from people, things, activities, food, etc... It means that all my pleasure is not in a sexual nature. I do not look at people as sexual objects but as hearts, minds, male, female, young, old, friends, relatives, etc... Now, the WHY I'm asexual - for me it's more a personal choice or more a position I find myself in - I am focused on healing and dealing with my PTSD and my past abuse issues. Sex to me growing up was a commodity, something to be taken, given or exchanged for love, food, not being beaten, etc. So it was like money or apples or drugs and for me the majority (99%) of the exchanges were a net negative, so much to the point that I didn't personally associate any pleasure from the acts themselves or the people the acts were engaged with. I found others that did not want to engage with sexual acts with me to be safe, caring and loving people and thus my brain became wired that no sex was good and healthy and safe and I moved into that designation as asexual once I was on my own and could CHOOSE my interactions and exchanges with others.

    That's possibly not 100% accurate, but after hours of discussions on the topic that is my in depth understanding of his landing place on the what and why. He and I have lots of in depth discussions about the world at large, not so much focused on his asexuality he is open about it, but also doesn't feel it defines him, nor do I he is a complete and whole person without that component a number of us identify as essential to our existence (me included).

    Hopefully some of those on here that identify as asexual will feel comfortable chiming in to address the OP and the whys and wherefores of how you chose to label yourself as such. All information is helpful in making the bigger decisions and/or understandings of things you are not knowledgeable about.

  • UKGuyUKGuy

    I'm sure 'asexual' means something specific in the medical literature. But the problem with labels is they mean whatever people think they mean and every person has a different interpretation. I've come across (on this site) many labels like asexual, bisexual, demisexual, pansexual, sapiosexual. The old labels 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual' seem to have been replaced by 'straight' and 'gay'. So labels are not only open to interpretation but they also change over time. Some old labels become unacceptable and new ones get adopted to replace them. It's all very confusing. There are so many labels to choose from and new ones are being invented all the time. Many people don't seem to know what they are and describe themselves as a combination of multiple labels.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    Sorry, for the many edits. I corrected many* important errors now. ?

    @pmvines I like the respect you've given, and that you* gave Asexuality an awareness. Although I once thought I was Asexual, I don't think I am an Asexual now. Though, a list of other things I've yet to sort of figure. Possibly I am a Demisexual. Though, I'll not* discuss about myself further as I am still figuring myself out, with myself. So, in the* times* I thought I was Ace, and even after*, I did some research on the subject. İt seems to me you seek to understand. Though, I am having some difficulty understanding your two questions. So, you can help me with clarification. I hope you also ask your friends, as well. As their feedback could be quite helpful, especially, given their personal experiences with being Ace.

    First it's said that Asexuals are about 1% of the population. I am not sure if that's of the US population/the whole world.

    İt is different from all the others you mentioned, such as: Low Sexe Drive, absence, etc. While all these things describe either lack of, or low sexe in one's life. The reasons are vastly different, and can vary from person to person.

    So, if you are asking if the label "Asexuality" is necessary, than İ would say it certainly* is. Asexuality is a complete lack of sexual attraction edit: as far as I know it end of edit. Gray Asexuality is gray... for example: there could be occasional sexual attraction, or in certain cases, etc.

    Asexual people can still desire affection, relationship, having a family, etc. However, they lack sexual attraction to others.

    How does Asexuality differ from low sex drive, or absence?

    • Asexuality: lack of sexual attraction to others.

    How is that possible??

    [Examples: Sort of like being a straight person, and not having sexual attraction to the same sexe. One might still possibly* be okay cuddling with the same sexe for example. [And, or being romantic with them. Though, not sexual as they lack that attraction. Which could make them a Biromantic, Heterosexual. Except with Asexuals they are not sexually attracted to anybody. Though, they could still experience Asethetic Attraction, and be romantically attracted, seek companionship, interested in the same, or opposite sexe, etc*.]

    Further more, Asexuals may, or may not have a medical issue that interferes with their ability to feel turned. They may, or may not have a low sex drive.

    First example: one could think of times they were not even thinking about* someone, and they got turned. Or they got with someone they are not attracted to sexually, and because there were certain interactions, their body could still go through the* feelings. Maybe they experienced the first example, and so, the interaction could be with themselves.

    Now imagine everyone you meet is someone you are not attracted to sexually. Lack of sexual attraction. Not lack of the ability to feel turned.

    Maybe another example: think of a table, it is useful. İt is likely you like having tables around. Though, I highly doubt you are attracted to a plain table sexually. So, now one can try to apply those examples to Asexuality. Though, to broaden the idea we are talking about humans that may have much more value to bring to the lives of others. So, one can still desire everything else in a relationship, or some of the things, just no sexe as they lack that attraction. Edit: or because their body can still experience arousal, they may share that activity with their partner whether for them out of love like an errand you are not so fond of. Or for the purpose of procreation. Or because even though they lack the attraction do with another because it feels good to them. Maybe it doesn't feel good for them. It depends on the person, their relationship, and decision that they are satisfied with. end of edit.]

    I understand it can be difficult to understand what we ourselves don't* experience*. Though, I hope I was able to explain this well, accurately, and that it's of help.

    • Sexe drive [can be none*, low, or high]

    Is the ability for one to feel turned, and how frequently that happens, many factors can also influence this*.

    [I have not looked much into this, yet. Though, I think sexe has two aspects that are relevant to this discussion: Psychological, and Physiological.]

    • Absence: a [decision]* to abstain.

    A person could be any of the above, and still abstain from sexe with another.

    Where as an Asexual person may, or may not experience arousal. Though, they lack sexual attraction.

    I'll give a weird example:

    I take it many understand one could feel aroused edit: even when not thinking about someone end of edit. As well as from having certain* interactions* with someone they are not attracted to in that manner*, etc. Now taking whatever may have caused one's body to be turned. One may for example* take a pillow, and do 'something' with that pillow. However, it doesn't mean that they are sexually attracted to the pillow. Nor does it mean they were/are not sexually attracted to the person they agreed to have the act* with. Even though, they lacked that attraction for them. They might still love the person, enjoy their affection, companionship, want to have children with, have aesthetic attraction, etc. Though, like the examples given, Asexuals lack sexual attraction to others.

    This website might also be of much help: http://www.whatisasexuality.com/intro/

    Let me know if my response conveys that I understood your questions, and any clarification you need on my feedback. I'll try to help with that. ?

  • pmvinespmvines

    @Lovelight more or less i pose the question of whether referring to oneself as asexual means more than simply not being interested in sex, or if there is more to it than that. Also a broader question would be is it necessary to apply a label to the level of interest one has in sex since there seems to be a lot of gray area and variations

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    ?

    Just found this neat list: https://lgbt.williams.edu/homepage/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-asexuality/

    Edit: @TouchIsTLC unfortunate, and interesting. I don't yet know what, and if it's what causes Asexuality. Though, I'd hypothesises trauma could lead to Asexuality. Or a list of other things. end of edit.

  • SideonSideon

    I applaud you, @pmvines and et al.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @pmvines alright. I think my response to you more or less answers one, or both your questions. As well as helps* to understand what Asexuality is, and how it can possibly feel like to be one.

    Asexuality: lack of sexual attraction to others.

    I think "not being interested in sexe" is too vague to replace Asexuality: lack of sexual attraction to others.

    Reason being: an Ace person may* still choose to have the activity. Or they might enjoy the feelings hence, they have interest in it. Just lacking the attraction, like I explained in my weird example.

    Also, a person* lacking* interest in doing it doesn't necessarily mean the reason is because they lack attraction. One* may, or may not have the attraction [to some people, or to no one]*, and still not/ have interest in doing it.

    Edit: a non-ace person, may* lack sexual attraction towards* some people. Whereas Asexual people lack that attraction for all people*. end of edit. I think this clarification is İMPORTANT, as well. İ just caught a mistake I might have made in my previous responses. end of edit. ?

    A Grey Ace person: may have that* attraction sometimes, rarely, or in certain cases.

    I'd again, say, it is necessary for many. Though, not a requirement for people to use such labels. There will always be variations, and grey areas. Though, labels defined, and understood/applied well: can help us communicate more effectively, efficiently. As well as make life less vague, and allow us a chance to form more relevant, supportive communities.

  • hogboblinhogboblin
    edited March 2019

    @Lovelight mentions grey areas, which is where I fit in, as a demisexual. What that means is that I require an emotional connection with someone in order to get zipper burns*. I don’t ever see someone out on the street and go “Golly, what a sexy person! I’d like to smash our decaying meat together.”

    However, this doesn’t mean that I can’t find certain features aesthetically pleasing—I am fond of noses, for example. And eyebrows. Those things can be beautiful, and beautiful things needn’t incite lust. Some people seem to have a problem with that concept.

    *As an introvert and misanthrope, it’s very rare that someone engorges my flesh. Furthermore, it’s easy for me to lose emotional interest in a person, which has resulted in some problems with my previous relationships.

    This is likely the most boring thing I’ve ever written on the forums.

  • pmvinespmvines

    @hogboblin you say boring, i say gray area...

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @pmvines lol. Grey it's.

    @hogboblin that's interesting! It's the case for me that I am possibly a Demisexual. Though, I still got other things to figure.

    I also never recall having that: "They are so attractive/etc. I want them like that."

    It's always been like: "They are so attractive." Or followed by, I'd like to get to know them. I used to even
    sometimes refer to men I found attractive as flowers, or something. So, that aesthetic attraction is there. My attraction to be affectionate: have non-sexually contacts [while at times not instant] is there what I'd estimate to be much earlier than attraction to sexe with another. That doesn't mean attraction to action right there. I still need to develop familiarity, comfort, etc.

    Edit, İ redact this point: "I do however, find that for example singers I can feel sexual attraction for: it seems it's ones I've know for long, and enjoyed their voice, songs, etc." reason being: thinking more about it, I couldn't recall a time I felt that way with any singers, etc. İ think I confused with my other attraction[s] to them for a moment. end of edit.

    İ feel no sexual attraction to someone I just come across/don't have the emotional connection I need with.

    Nonetheless, for clarity, I discuss these topics for educational purposes, and I am here just for platonic connections: as is my goal as well as, the goal of this community.

  • garrablancagarrablanca

    Interesting is that also there is some people that may have a different perception of them selves and choose a label, when the people who interact with them could be having a different opinion about that label.

    You'll see, when we don't care about pleasing others or interact with others, it really doesn't matter what the people could be thinking about us.
    But when you care... It's interesting to see how others have a perception of us, because the interaction is affected by that opinions.

    So, yeah we shouldn't have that many flavors in labels, because we have to interact to each other to find out who really is that person.
    With too many labels, only makes things more "boring".
    At the end we never escape from other's judgment.
    Because at the end we need to appreciate the person by how we interact with them, instead of giving for granted by whatever that person said that person is.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @garrablanca one can use a label and not care what others think. Labels when defined, and understood/applied properly can be of much help to others and oneself, as I explained. Using labels has nothing to do with "caring what others think of one" unless one actually cares in which case that's them caring what others think, and not their use of labels. Nothing inherently wrong with having various labels*. İt can help us sum up some aspects of ourselves or others. As well as in helping us form communities that better understand, and support our* shared aspects. Edit: Though, anybody doesn't want such labels for themselves, can go without them. end of edit.

  • hogboblinhogboblin

    @Lovelight +1

    Thank you for responding to @garrablanca. I was working on a reply of my own, but it was...vexing.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited March 2019

    Topic for this post: Labels and gender vs living as a gender

    Branching out a little from the term asexual and sexual preference terms to gender terms. My son, who is a high school senior, has a girlfriend. However, his girlfriend is now wanting to be referred to as a boy. I am very open minded and consider myself to be pretty socially liberal. What i am a bit puzzled about is that he has not changed anything re appearance, manner of dress, mannerisms, and other things we stereo typically associate with gender. I realize there is not a cookie cutter textbook boy or girl, so i am going based on the traditional images that come to mind. As far as i know, there is not a plan for hormone therapy or surgery, though i could be wrong about that. So that being said, i am not sure that trans would necessarily apply since the biggest change really is that he wants to be referred to as a boy. Thoughts?

  • littlecuddlefoxlittlecuddlefox

    Asexuality isn't a matter of interest in sex, or a person's activity level. A person could be interested in sex for all sorts of different reasons, and could have sex/abstain from sex for all sorts of different reasons. There are asexuals who are very sexually active, and also asexuals with high libidos. There are allosexuals ('normal sexual attraction') who are celibate, and allosexuals with low or no libidos. It's all variable. And of course there are graysexuals, who are diverse as well.

    Personally, I'm demisexual and a nonlibidoist. I know a lot of ace spectrum (asexual/graysexual) people feel like they're broken or that something is wrong with them until they discover the labels, that it's a real thing and they're not alone. I just love language.
    Behaviour doesn't necessarily tell you what's going on inside someone's head, but their label can. Another person's perception may be based off of behaviour, and that perception could be totally wrong because the person jumped to the wrong conclusion.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @hogboblin no problem, it's understandable. Thanks also, I tend to forget Demisexuality fits in with Grey Ace, and I am sure others also initially thought they were Asexual. #on to the next discussion.

    @pmvines that's difficult, my knowledge of that region is limited, and it's an area I draw a grey line.

    İ think if possible for your son to have a discussion with his gf/. Though, maybe as well you if she does bring up the discussion, or something. Than finding out why she says she wants to be called a boy might help.

    Unless someone gets facial feminization/, chest implants, voice change, etc. and does make some effort to look the sexe with which they wish to be called. I'll not refer to an actual girl that virtually anyone can say "it's a girl" a "boy." Most importantly, I'll not call someone who's bodily anatomy especially, as visible to others says it's a girl, call a boy.

    The exception İntersexed people.

    İf they wish to be refered to as male, or female. Or a term used by all intersexed people that either combines both, or makes neutral. Then sure.

    İf someone is either make, or female, though, they are ambiguous looking, then I'd consider referring to them with a commonly agreed upon/used gender neutral pronoun.

    As for trans people, while my understanding of it is limited. İ don't think the BEST solution is physical surgery of altering the body. I suppose we are quite a long way from figuring out how to scientifically get one's brain to change, and embrace one's body as is. İ think such discovery would also help solve a range of disorders as well. Although, this is what we've now, I think we should continue to strive to discover a method that's less invasive, and better. While I can't get into it all, the solution we've now altering the body has various issues from: infertility/possibility of in certain stages, differences in height, shoe/hand size, etc. Often it's also suggested to start the procedure young, the younger the "better." As it can help combat some of these challenges/differences as men are generally bigger than women. So, doing the process earlier helps ensure a male to female doesn't grow much to his full potential. Though, I am against starting early as it's a huge decision not to hand to kids, pre teens, I'd say not even teens! There's the potential for all sorts of things being missed by rushing. So, I hope a better solution comes. İn terms of a transperson that made the effort, then I'll refer to them as: she.

  • EsquireEsquire

    It is my observation there a strong correlation between self identification as some uncommon gender, or sex, and the person's politics. There even seems to be one with certain west coast cities and the universities.

  • LovelightLovelight

    @pmvines I had trouble posting. So, just finished my response to your gender term post.

    You don't have to share with us. Though, I also have some concern for your son how he's handling this, as well as what all this could mean for him. İ really hope it's not some twisted prank. Or test, on her part.

    Also, while many are free to disagree and handle similar as I do. Handle in a respectful manner. Nobody has the right to disrespect her for how she feels, or thinks about this matter.

  • littlecuddlefoxlittlecuddlefox
    edited March 2019

    If someone is born with a vagina and identifies as a boy, they count as transgender no matter what they are/aren't doing with their body (edit: although some people don't personally identify with the term even if it applies to them, so it's better to ask the person if you're wondering about their someone's individual identity). Being trans isn't just a physical thing. Someone can transition medically (surgery, hormones), socially (name, pronoun usage), both, or neither. People have different personal reasons for why they might transition in some ways but not others.

    When it comes to gender presentation, there is the same variance with trans people as with cis people. A cis man can be a cross-dresser, perhaps even feel more comfortable in a skirt and makeup than in any other mode of presentation. So of course a trans man could be the same. Mannerisms are largely a learned thing. When something has been a habit your entire life, it's hard to just suddenly switch. And sometimes it doesn't bother the person enough for them to think it warrants the effort. Men can be masculine or androgynous or feminine. Women can be feminine or androgynous or masculine. This is true for both cis people and trans people. They don't have to change their entire everything to fit a gender stereotype in order to count as valid. And if someone is still in high school, odds are they don't have as much freedom to totally change things anyway.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @littlecuddlefox well said, I'd add due to the misunderstanding about Asexuality, etc. even one explaining themselves, some are either violated as in "you haven't tried with me" etc. Or they fear that. So, İ think the awareness, and education is a start in helping end the mistreatment of people whatever their identity may be.

  • littlecuddlefoxlittlecuddlefox

    @Lovelight Oh, yeah, some people get gross and invalidating when a person is generous enough to explain their own personal experiences and thoughts. I agree completely about awareness and education. That's why I'm willing to put myself on display; I can handle receiving invasive questions that other people can't, and I'm a minority within the minorities. If there's not any representation of me, I'll be my own representation. And then others can see that people like me exist, so the other me-s out there might not feel so afraid or alone or broken.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @littlecuddlefox perhaps for clarity's sake.

    Edit: İ redact this point for now:

    ["I'd say that one needs to have gender dysphoria to be trans. Not just call themselves a "boy.""] İ got conflicting, and not so credible research sources. So, I'll do more research on that point. end of edit.

    İf they someone is* trans, then I'd highly advice they seek professional diagnosis. Not self diagnose as that can be quite a danger. Also, for me to call one a man, or a woman then they need to in some ways look that sexe. Of course, they don't have to fit some magical perfect female/ image. Dress, high heels, long hair, make up, etc. Though, for example someone with all that, their chest that of a or resembling women's. Or masculine face, full beard, short hair, a man. Asking to be called a woman, is a no from me. When basically so much their look, voice, physique, etc. including their chromosomes says for example female, I'll not call the person a male. Though, with the exceptions I gave previously can apply. As well as simply using the person's name.

  • UKGuyUKGuy
    edited March 2019

    If a girl wants to be 'referred to' as a boy, I'd ask why. Tell us the response and we can proceed from there. Although I think a person of any sex who wants to be referred to as the opposite sex should probably be talking to a professional therapist.

  • LovelightLovelight
    edited March 2019

    @littlecuddlefox sure, yes about Ace, etc. İt's good you are supportive of yourself, and others.

    @UKGuy exactly! @pmvines doesn't have to tell us. Though, it could help, or even knowing for yourself.

  • pmvinespmvines

    @Lovelight mu son is ok with it, he has no issues but he also is in a welcoming environment and has gay and trans friends so nothing new really.

  • littlecuddlefoxlittlecuddlefox

    @Lovelight
    [Took me long enough to type that I did not see your point redaction until posting, because the page didn't automatically update, but I'll leave my comment intact rather than rewrite it.]
    The trans community has been leaning heavily towards demedicalization of the term. People don't just wake up and decide to call themselves some random other gender on a whim. There generally is some degree of dysphoria, but the process of feeling and identifying it is vague and complicated enough that it's easier and simpler to just go by matter of identity. For some, that dysphoria may be very low, may only appear on occasion, and may only be social dysphoria rather than physical. For a long time, dysphoria was focused on, and that resulted in a lot of trans people feeling lost, because cis people were framing things as 'trans => extreme body dysphoria'. Someone who only experiences low levels of social dysphoria may have it even be so low that it's not felt as any sort of discontent, but rather they feel the distinction in terms of gender euphoria (opposite of dysphoria) when recognized and called by their actual gender. If someone has depression, which many do, it can be incredibly difficult to suss out a low level of social dysphoria, but they can still feel and identify 'gender euphoria'.

    Only an individual person can determine their own gender. Other people can't feel their feelings and think their thoughts. No matter what all they may try to communicate to others, others can't fully know what it's like to be in their head. So a psychiatrist or psychologist may be able to help them with handling depression or anxiety, or help them along the path to medical transition if they want that, but can't decide what gender they 'really are', which is the discrepancy that causes gender dysphoria. It's not a helpful thing. It actually is a major hindrance, because many 'professionals' act as gatekeepers. Not everyone has the resources and ability to get what they need. The only reason a 'professional diagnosis' is still even needed is because the cis people who write the rules are still insisting that there be a litmus test for people being 'trans enough' to be allowed to transition or be respected. If someone is experiencing depression or anxiety as a result of being trans, I do hope they get help for that. But being trans doesn't require a diagnosis from someone else.
    Why do you think it's "quite a danger" for someone to determine that they are experiencing gender dysphoria rather than paying someone else to say they are?

    You can't know what chromosomes a person has unless they've had them tested and they tell you the test results. Also, there is a difference between sex (female, male, intersex) and gender (woman, man, non-binary).
    Why is it that you won't respect a person's gender identity unless they've visibly transitioned a certain distance? You don't know their stories. Maybe they still present as their assigned birth gender because they aren't able to transition.

  • garrablancagarrablanca

    @Lovelight
    I didn't know you can use more than one label in this site.
    Interesting.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    Instead of everyone organizing people like a matching game of socks after the dryer, why not wear a button that just says “Hi, my name is insert name and I am not you.” Problem solved.

  • garrablancagarrablanca
    edited March 2019

    :p

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