What does being "manly" look like to you, and how does it fit with cuddling? Particularly interested in women's point of view.
(Inspired by a comment by @Baltimore_MD_ ).
I think you need to qualify what you are looking for or else you might get the anatomical answer first.
In before "toxic".
Brittany Spears knew her stuff.
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Manly means being able to not be the normative societal gender stereotype of what it is to be a man, and to feel 100 percent ok with it
OK, some context. The original comment from that thread said:
When I find myself desiring cuddling, it feel almost like it's something I'm not supposed to want. The desire almost feels "unnatural". It's this weird subconscious thing. Because my vision for cuddling is either being on a comfy couch or laying in bed wrapped up in a nice blanket holding each other in our arms, watching or listening to something with a woman, our bodies touching, but not in a strictly sexual way. It's comforting - that's the key word for me. It's comforting, it's relaxing, it's peaceful. Like a prolonged, tight, warm hug from someone you really care about or something similar. The desire for that does not fall within the definition of "manly desires" in the previous paragraph. And so when I find myself desiring human contact, desiring cuddles - my subconscious is saying "You're not desiring a manly thing, what's wrong with you?"
My reaction to that is, being manly involves things like: treating women respectfully; comforting and protecting them (if that's what they need/want at the time); and certainly being vulnerable. All of which fit perfectly with cuddling.
But that's speaking as a man. I am mainly interested in women's point of view of this.
@pmvines Agreed!
This topic is so fascinating and honestly the reason I started cuddling in the first place. While no, I'm not a man, I do feel many similarities in how I was raised to not show emotion and to suppress my needs and desires to how men are "supposed" to act in our society, so I do understand the pain of feeling guilty to want an emotional connection or of even expressing your needs and wants.
To me, manliness is authenticity. Plain and simple. To be "brave" and "strong" are to do the things that are meaningful and valuable to you, ESPECIALLY when they are difficult or frowned upon by others. It's not about putting on this facade to act like you don't have feelings, to act like you don't care, to be macho, it's about standing in your truth and accepting yourself as you are regardless of what other people think. It's about acting from a space of love and understanding. The irony is that this is also what women "should" be. There is too much focus on sex and gender differences, when in reality, we all need to focus more on how to bring our most loving, authentic selves to the world. If you're a man and you want a cuddle and cry, go for it. If you're a woman and you want to become the highest paid CEO in the world, knock yourself out. If you identify as anything in between and have a desire to care for, grow, or express yourself in any way, shape, or form that comes from a space of love for yourself and others, DO IT.
Simultaneously, this means an allowance for others to be themselves as well. If someone is acting, behaving, thinking, dressing, etc. in a way that doesn't fit your understanding, they're not harming themselves or others, AND it brings them immense amounts of joy, why on earth would you care?
My point is this - live your life from a space of love and understand for yourself and those around you. This isn't some hippie bs, it's simply that what you focus on becomes your reality. If you focus on living your most authentic life and fulfilling what truly matters to YOU, you will be the most successful, loving man that ever lived.
Brut Cologne?
@pmvines BINGO
Off the cuff answer without a lot of thought.
Being honest enough to recognize you have a desire to be vulnerable and strong enough to acknowledge and cultivate that need.
Understanding that paying for the need to be met is just a means to an end and not a license to push boundaries.
Wrestling with the conflicting idea that paying makes it less or different somehow and allowing the need and accompanying satisfaction to win. Defeating the idea that paying may somehow make you less of a man for not having a woman fall at your feet begging you to give it to her. Confidence in acknowledging an unmet need and taking steps to meet it for your overall health. A confident man won't need to push boundaries because he knows the difference between platonic and sexual.
Confidence and assurance is what makes a man a man.
This is easily put to bed in the context given. Feeling unmanly because you want cuddles is a learned behavior. Learned behavior can be unlearned.
This has some differences among Cultures, so it should have different answers around the globe.
Manliness, to me, is defeating one’s father in unarmed combat and seeing him weep—utterly broken—on the floor.
@hogboblin I wait until the annual Festivus feats of strength competition to do that
I automatically equate manliness with strength, quiet confidence, and a good hearty laugh that’s honest- what can I say I was born in the South.
As for cuddling, I do still enjoy those key things in a partner. Sometimes I feel like guys are so cautious being careful to not disrespect their partner they forget what they need from the session, which Can build an awkward wall between the two individuals rather than just relaxing into each other. For me it’s all about connecting with people in a genuine way.
Ok guys, I’ll change my cologne, since Brut isn’t the thing
Hmm there are a lot of qualities I'd want to include in my definition of manliness.
What I automatically conjure up when I hear the word however are these sterotypes- a gruffness in speech or appearance, physical strength or posing some type of authority or presence, an awkwardness or helplessness around openly displays of emotions or vulnerablility. An inclination to be more "logical" than communciative, masculine energy, authoritive, big appetite e.t.c.
Again, stereotypes are learned.
In my opinion, there is no such thing as manliness or womanliness other than the anatomical features that make someone a man or a woman. The concepts of masculinity and femininity are defined by society and indoctrinated in us from birth. I don't think men or women should be expected to have the stereotypical quaities society assigns to their gender. I have no issue with men having 'feminine' qualities or women having 'masculine' qualities. That said, there is nothing wrong with us having preferences but I don't think we should have expectations.
There are as many ways to be manly as there are men.
I love all the female perspectives on here, does this mean that you all are...? ?
The asked for a woman's perspective.
@BrianL that is a very good answer though.
@inparadise YESSS!!! Great words!!
While there are many good answers posted, I have a simpler perspective. A man isn't terribly concerned about how others perceive his masculinity.
Thank you @Respectful for quoting me, I'm flattered that my off-the cuff remarks were able to generate so much thoughtful discussion. This community is a neat place.
@PaulaDahla - You've give me some challenging ideas to think about.
"Being honest enough to recognize you have a desire to be vulnerable and strong enough to acknowledge and cultivate that need."
That is such a perfect statement to describe some of the internal struggles I have with admitting to myself that I really enjoy cuddling and I think for any long term relationship I have, cuddling is a necessary aspect. It feels "unnatural" to say that out loud (or write it out loud) but honestly that's where I am. That's what led me here. And when I do cuddle it feels so good.
"Defeating the idea that paying may somehow make you less of a man for not having a woman fall at your feet begging you to give it to her."
I don't think that's really how I view it personally (I know you were not pointing a finger but I thought I'd clarify just in case.) I do feel like the desire to cuddle with one another should be mutual. One partner falling to their knees begging for it illustrates an terrible "inequality of desire" and that's not what I'm about. Which is partially why I'm still reluctant to pay for cuddling, but I'm trying to view it from the point of view you described: "Confidence in acknowledging an unmet need and taking steps to meet it for your overall health." That's another really nice way of putting it.
@Esquire you remind me of my grandfather: "A man isn't terribly concerned about how others perceive his masculinity." That could have been right out of his mouth. When I was a kid growing up and the other kids made fun of me for wearing out my old shoes and wearing hand-me-downs my grandfather would tell me that first of all life would get better (it did) and second of all "when people try to tear you down that tells you more about THEM than it does about YOU. Your job is to put one foot in front of the other and don't waste your time and energy one people who only have bad things to say" (Paraphrased.) I viwed him as a bad-ass god-like figure when I was in grade school. He worked hard, and taught me many valuble life lessons, it's a shame I didn't really start to appreciate how deep they were until I was a grown man myself.
@kleen "I automatically equate manliness with strength, quiet confidence, and a good hearty laugh that’s honest- what can I say I was born in the South." You would have liked my grandfather. He didn't say much but when he did he spoke wisdom (though as a child I never really fully understood what he was saying to me). And he could get a room laughing when he found something funny.
@inparadise This is another very deep and thoughtful answer that I'm going to be thinking about a lot: "To me, manliness is authenticity. Plain and simple. To be "brave" and "strong" are to do the things that are meaningful and valuable to you, ESPECIALLY when they are difficult or frowned upon by others. It's not about putting on this facade to act like you don't have feelings, to act like you don't care, to be macho, it's about standing in your truth and accepting yourself as you are regardless of what other people think." The people we tend to admire most from history are exactly those kinds of people. They bucked the (bad) trends in society to try and make the world a better place, and they caught hell for it in their time. I'm certainly not a historical figure but there are certainly areas in my own life where I could afford to be a little bit more adventurous and bold though.
Anyway, super interesting thread, thanks again to everyone for the comments and hope you're all having a nice day.
Someone should start a thread on 'Womanliness', since this thread ignores 50% of the World's population.
@respectful - Thanks for putting the quote into a context. That helped.
What is "manly" to me? I have no idea, it's not something I think about.
What the quote did make me think about is other primates. They spend about 30% of their waking time grooming each other or sitting very close. They don't appear to worry about what the other primates will think of them, they just do it. We're biologically wired to want physical contact.
Different cultures have different ideas about how men behave. I've traveled in countries where men were much more physical with each other than they are in the U.S. In Kenya, it's not unusual to see two men walking holding hands. In Nepal, I remember two young Nepali guys, one sitting on a chair, the other sitting on his lap, the two of them laughing uproariously about some funny thing. There was a complete lack of self-consciousness. In Italy, male friends would embrace each other enthusiastically upon seeing each other and might stand there, one with his arm around the other, while they would talk.
I'm sorry that so many men here have been conditioned to not show their softer side because it isn't manly.
For me, “manliness” is something deep-rooted.
I was trained to believe it stems from honesty, integrity, self control, and patience.
It requires bravery, in that there are times when you must put your life in between danger and those you love.
It manifests in doing dishes, and smiling women, and happy friends, and being able to calmly and gently rock a crying baby to sleep.
It’s about having the courage to give, even in the face of everything the world takes from you.
But, at the end of the day, “manliness” is a false label.
We should call it humanliness.
@Babichev That's actually the perfect response to the original post as well; the shame. shame. shame thread. Love it, thanks for supporting my thoughts with actual examples.