@HappinessHenry I agree! I noticed that recently and was trying to go around addressing it. It's important however hurt and let down we feel, to not put up our own wall of prejudices.
@Allan2018 while I can understand where you're coming from, and the frustrations this can cause. Age and Race are NOT the same. Even on governmental levels, we've different age gaps that it's permissible/appropriate to do all kinds of things. On the social level, we've different age gaps as well (on who's okay, with who) which I agree, many of it is ageist. However difficult it can be to talk about, and navigate it's important to do so.
There are within the social realm a big problem as well (especially, in Canada/USA as the laws vary around the world) (for example: 30+ year old) people who want for example, 5-13 year olds to meet with them and go to their place: date, cuddle, whatever loophole they try to go through: they want to have inappropriate connections with them. 5-15 etc., year olds need to and should associate with others in their age gap. So, that's one of the big examples as to why age and race are not the same and why it's discussion is different. The age gap that for example I've, it's not my choosing because "I don't want to cuddle with/spend time with someone aged so and so. It's something I think about and try to overcome. If we lived in a perfect world in which a 20 year old for example wasn't judged, and looked down upon because they are spending time with a 50 year old: then, that would allow me to proceed with others and expand my age range more. Nonetheless, I try to overcome it with myself, first. As well as learning more about the reasons it’s the way it’s. I don’t know how to navigate it though, someone might be kind enough to link you a post or two in which age was discussed here. I am pretty sure it’s a discussion that was had one, twice, or so.
@Lovelight: "If they prefer because race so and so is: too submissive, violent, etc., for them: then, yes!" you say; "That's racism...." So you're saying that it's not racist to have skin tone preferences, but it is racist to assume someone's personality based on their skin tone?
I can follow that reasoning. Every member of a race doesn't have the exact same skin tone or facial features, after all. One wouldn't expect there to be anything wrong with disliking a particular shade.
Take my skin tone for instance: most Caucasians are not this pasty. Rather than being racist, it would be entirely understandable if someone found cuddling with somebody whose skin looks like it belongs to something that lives under a rock flat-out creepy. But if they started assuming, based on my skin color, that I had certain personality traits (whispering "My Precious" to myself while petting prized possessions, perhaps)—that would be wrong.
But this line of reasoning can be applied to age as well. Not every member of a specific age group shares the same traits.
Not everyone in the 57–73 age range has a strong work ethic, or enjoys rock and roll. Not everyone from 38 to 56 is a cynical, MTV-watching slacker. You can be anywhere from 25 to 37 and not be an entitled narcissist. You can even be between the ages of 4–24 and not be comfortable with technology!
It's ageist to assume someone's personality based on when they were born. It's racist to assume someone's personality based on their skin tone and facial features.
The thing is... culture does tend to shape personality at least a little, and we live in a world where people born at different times, or in different places, or in different communities, have different cultures. The culture you're raised in and the culture you live in affect the way you think about things, and the way you think about things affects what you do. It doesn't set who you are in stone! But it does push you in certain directions.
Is being aware of the broad tendencies of a generation ageist? I'd say no: only if you assume those tendencies necessarily apply to every individual in that generation.
Is being aware of the stereotype a certain race is gently (and not-so-gently) pushed to conform to racist? Is being aware of the stereotype a certain physical sex is pushed to conform to sexist? No, and no—it's only bad when you start expecting stereotypical behaviors from everybody in that category.
Edit:
On further thought, it's bad when you start thinking of people as "exceptions to the rule"—because there is no rule. There's only an inclination, slanting down to a stereotype; and no one's a stereotype! (Although some people can come pretty close.)
Anyone seen the old film gag where the first person dives on the ground and then everyone else piles in on top of them. THEN the original person crawls out from the very bottom of the pile and dusts themselves off and casually walks away...leaving the whole ruck still going on. With yet more people diving in on top. Even as we cut.
@HappinessHenry: That's a fun one, isn't it?
According to the website Axios, "the majority of the U.S. population under 18 years old will be nonwhite by next year. Before 2030, the majority of Americans under 30 will be nonwhite.
@DarrenWalker although I don't quite understand what you mean by this last bit of yours:
"On further thought, it's bad when you start thinking of people as "exceptions to the rule"—because there is no rule. There's only an inclination, slanting down to a stereotype; and no one's a stereotype! (Although some people can come pretty close.)"
I agree, and understand everything else* you said. When it comes to skin tone, that, I find I need to study some more. Though, it's preference communicated, and understood properly, is not racist.
I think while your shade might not be as white as most Caucasians, I think most Causasians are 'whiter' than most Black people, and I think you are 'whiter' than most Black people.
The way to communicate this preference can be tricky. I think in such a case, it's best to go by: skin tone. So say, for example, "I am into very fair skined person, or dark/light skined person, etc." Or whatever other better terminology there is. As opposed to resorting to race, as not everyone in that race has their tone preference especially, if they are Biracial. And the important thing here is to say what we WANT. As opposed to what we don't want. As well as, to not announce it when it's uncalled for/unnecessary.
@HappinessHenry never seen before. Is it a scary movie? ?
@Lovelight Not scary. It is an old Charlie Chaplin gag. It was then followed up by The Three Stooges also using it. It is a cliched gag and you are really not missing anything. But if you must watch, watch Chaplin.
@OhioMike interesting. It's not something I followed. Thanks for letting us know about it.
@FunCartel cool, alright. I used to watch the 3 stoogies they were pretty funny.
@DarrenWalker I also agree with your take on ageism. Although, there are other things to it, as well. One other thing is that, many/some seem to associate older age with for example being unattractive/not youthful, which is overgeneralization. This being the most important for people whom appearance matters a lot. While I don't know if rare, or not so: there are people for example, in their 40s who look generally pretty attractive (objectively/generally speaking), youthful, etc., Some look younger than their age, and vice versa.
There are also other elements. For example, people who look like they are in what's perceived in similar age range, are thought of as friends, partners, etc. Whereas those perceived as not so close in age/youthfulness are by some/many looked at as: either one of them taking advantage of the other. Just because their age differs significantly. Which IS ageist. It is something many of us need to learn more about, challenge, and overcome, as well.
@Lovelight: Maybe rephrasing that last paragraph of mine will help you understand it better.
It's bad when you start thinking of certain older people as "exceptions to the rule of 'old = unattractive'"—because there is no such rule. There's only an inclination to looking less youthful, slanting down to a stereotype of shriveled-living-corpse-ishness; and no one's a stereotype! (Although some people can come pretty close.)
Or I could say:
It's bad when you start thinking of certain women as "exceptions to the rule of 'female = pretty and weak'"—because there is no such rule. There's only a socially enforced inclination to dress up and lean on others, slanting down to a stereotype of charming helplessness; and no one's a stereotype!
Or:
It's bad when you start thinking of certain autistics as "exceptions to the rule of 'autistic = socially inept'"—because there is no such rule. There's only an inclination towards blunt literalness, slanting down to a stereotype of total inability to speak to others politely; and no one's a stereotype!
I think you understand that bit all right. You seem to have misunderstood my comments on my own skin tone, though: I'm way paler than most Caucasians.
Even someone who's okay with cuddling white people might draw the line at skin as creepily colorless as mine; and even though most white folks are indeed paler than most black folks, that wouldn't be a race thing. It'd just be a "Oh man, your near-total lack of skin color really freaks me out" thing.
@Lovelight - Thanks for your reflections on my comments here and your input into so much of this discussion. Since you don't specify your race in your profile and you don't have a picture, I'm making the assumption that you are contacted by potential cuddlers, but then receive unkind messages when you are asked about your race. If you reply to someone saying that "race shouldn't matter" you probably receive even less kind messages.
If anyone ever states that another race is inferior to any other race - they are a racist! But you will never convince me that having a preference of who one wants to be intimately close to (which cuddling is an intimate connection) makes one a racist. You, @Lovelight are personally happy to cuddle with men of any race. That is your preference! On a related note: Per your profile, you are a woman who only cuddles men. Does that mean you are homophobic? No. You could be homosexual - but your preference is to cuddle men. If a woman was to message you and ask you "Why don't you cuddle women?", what would your response be? I'm truly curious about what you would answer.
Thanks again for your passionate sharing of your thoughts.
No offense to anyone who has commented but...... These comparisons of racism to ageism and sexism, homophobia or whatever we’ve seen are simply made (IMO) to deflect ones racist attitude. There is no defense for the indefensible so to try makes you look guilty in my eyes. Preference and racism are not remotely alike, a racist act or behavior has nothing to do with race. I don’t care how you package it they are not related in any form. Please stop using that as a method too disguise you attitudes toward race. My advise to everyone is to be honest with yourself about your feelings in regards to this subject, and if it makes you uncomfortable try and adjust, if you are fine with your feelings own it. Don’t try and defend it. That’s the worst. It’s second to “i have black people in my family” “my best friend is black” those have no bearing on your attitudes toward race and are really disrespectful to those mentioned and whoever you are talking too. That is all, I’m sure there will be a lot of response to this post but i hope you just reflect on it, i will not be convinced. My response is likely going to be something like, “yes that is correct, but it has nothing to do with racism”
@BashfulLoner ?on your post. Most white people like to talk about not being racist yet they turn around and do everything you cited. They simply, for the most part, have never experienced racism in its subtle forms on a day-to-day basis and cannot empathize with that aspect of racism.
I attended a predominantly black high school. Almost all my friends were black. The back of my jersey in football and baseball said Ghost because my best friend said I looked like Casper the Friendly Ghost. I loved it. But twice we were pulled over in the course of three months by cops because there was a black guy driving and a black guy in back. When they saw me in the car, they asked me “What are you doing in the car with them?” When I said we were friends and went to the same school they gave him his drivers license back and told him to drive safely. There was never a mention of any wrongdoing other than driving while black.
@BashfulLoner You are my favorite black poster! ??
There is a distimct difference between prejudice and racism, which sets apart race from the other isms. I know what it is like to experience prejudice, however i will never know what it is like to truly experience something as institutionally oppressive as racism .
@DarrenWalker İ think I understand your take on your complexion.
Though, personally, I am cool with whatever color, race someone is. I can understand the misconceptions, and stigmas surrounding such, however. ?
What I have trouble understanding is that which you rephrased multiple times. Do you mean like someone saying: "You are not like other girls/20 year olds/etc."?
@pmvines ?Precisely my point. I have seen and witnessed it quite a bit having grown up in it, but I will never know what it is like deep down to my core because I was not the target 24/7/365. So I wince when racism is “whitesplained” via logic or preference. There is nothing logical or preferred about racism. It is just hate, be it overt or latent.
Dear Dazza @DarrenWalker
I know you mean well by "there are people for example, in their 40s who look generally pretty attractive (objectively/generally speaking), youthful, etc" but...I am as the Bard said "Damned by faint praise" by this.
Hell, in my late 50's, I am so smokin' hot you could light up the Colorado night sky with me.
@HappinessHenry pretty sure, it was just me that said that in this thread.
That was a foolish example, thanks for pointing out. I will improve my mindset, and choice of words moving forward. ?
It wasn't meant by any offense. I know people who continue to look 10+ younger than they are, as well. Though, yeah, attractiveness/etc., aren't inherently bound by age/etc. ?
@loveandsky
Through some reflection, and discussions my thoughts may have shifted a bit, or so throughout.
Like I communicated in my latest response to you.
I have no issue with anyone saying they prefer someone of so, and so color/complexion, appearance, tendencies, etc.
The issue:
The issue is them going out of their way to tell someone without any reasonable reason. As well as if the reason for their “attraction/preference” or lack thereof, is based on: racist ideas.
Or they think Black/etc., people are all the same shade. Or that, they think Black people are rude, nice, or whatever. The point, about skin tone having been brought more to my attention by @DarrenWalker.
You:
"If a woman was to message you and ask you "Why don't you cuddle women?", what would your response be? I'm truly curious about what you would answer."
My response to that, is subject to change depending on whatever thought process, situation, etc., I am in at the time.
Since you asked:
My aesthetic attraction to men’s body structures, height, etc., is quite broad.
Where as with women, it’s quite narrow, and rare for me to encounter. Which has substantial impact on my willingness to cuddle with women. Also, I am not ready/in a place in my life to battle the societal issues that can arise from being physical with women. A part from that quick friendly/socially acceptable hug. So, for me, giving that rarity a chance now is not an option.
Part of my previous response:
Not here though: racism, misogyny, and the like has happened to me both out of the blue as the first thing they sent, and it has happened to me when I responded to their seemingly friendly messages. Though, they turned nasty, boundary pushers, and so, I rejected them: to which they threatened, told me to go back to so, and so place, etc.
There are also many (so far I just see most among women) who come out with similar troubles: in which men get aggressive, racist, and misogynistic, etc. towards them after a rejection, or whenever. Even on dating apps, the women have a right to respect, and they deserve to not be objectified.
My response to your points:
From place to place, from time to time, I feel comfortable putting a photo, or two/ Edit: of me end of edit. in my profile. The places, and times I met these men: They could see my photo(s) upfront. They proceeded to make racist, misogynistic, etc., remarks about me following my rejecting their line-crossing, DISRESPECTFUL, advances. Thereafter, I said to one of them, along the lines of: “No matter my race, I deserve respect!” Which he continued to be racist, etc. Then, I stopped responding to him, likewise, with others like him.
Hope that clears that up for you.
@Lovelight: Yes, like that. "You're not like other girls (boys / old people / whites / blacks / whatever)—you're cool (or smart, or pretty, or whatever)"... that's an insult to the group you're a part of.
Someone saying that is saying that all (or nearly all) members of X category (male, female, long-lived, etc.) are not whatever good thing they think you are.
@BashfulLoner: This got a bit long, so I spoilered it for ease of scrolling in future.
As someone who's been described as an inhuman being to whom nearly everything about humanity is alien, I'm admittedly no expert on the belief that all members of some category possess characteristics or abilities specific to the members of that category, thus setting them above or below the members of another category. But it seems to me that a person wouldn't have to believe all Caucasians are X in order to notice that my skin is super pale, and think it's creepy.
Nor would a person have to believe that all genetic females are (or should be) submissive in order to notice that I'm a take-charge kind of individual, and dislike it.
Seeing me acting suspiciously in stores or down dark alleys or wherever, and overlooking it when they notice how little melanin my skin has—that's racist. Continually slapping me down whenever I start asserting myself when they notice the lumps on my chest—that's sexist. Treating me differently not because of the color of my skin or the shape of my body, but because of their ideas about what those simple facts mean... that's wrong.
"I'm creeped out by how pale your skin is" is one thing. "You have pale skin so you're less likely to be a criminal" is an entirely different universe of horrible.
"I don't like the feel of breasts" is one thing. "You have breasts so you're a kind, gentle, submissive person"—that's another.
I don't mind recognition of simple facts, even when others prefer not to do certain things with people about whom those facts are true. I do have pale skin. I do have breasts. I am assertive. I am bad with emotions. I was born in America. These are all things that are true—and they don't mean anything more than what they say.
Isms (like racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, etc.) start when people stop seeing the facts as simple, and start hooking all sorts of other things to them. "You're this, so you must also be this." I really dislike that practice. Especially when it gets institutionalized. There's no escaping it then.
@DarrenWalker i agree
Apolgies Dazza! @DarrenWalker and thanks for owning up @Lovelight You were absolutely right. With my failing aging eyesight I did quite literally misread the situation.
As to offence, none meant and definitely none taken, I can assure you.
@BashfulLoner: Hey, that's good to hear. And here was me, thinking you were saying my comparisons of racism to ageism and sexism and so on were simply made to disguise my own racist attitude. Dunno how I misunderstood that, but I'm glad I wasn't right!
Anyone seen the old visual gag in action movies where there is some close quarters fighting going on and one of the combatants accidentally hits the person behind them while swinging their arm back to hit the person in front of them...well that just happened, metaphorically, here.
Thank you for your replies to my questions, @Lovelight
@DarrenWalker i took your comparisons of “isms” as issues to grapple with across the board and not justification. That’s really where my issue comes in. But your bringing to light how we all similarly may encounter or have prejudices without even realizing it just makes us aware. Justification is what i have issue with.
What is life without boundaries and respect for another’s likes or dislikes. I personally don’t date men shorter than me and I’m sure they complain but should I still date them so they don’t feel “discriminated against”? Not sure I’m a Black female who only dates White men and the racist crapppp I hear from Black men is ridiculous. Just hurtful. There’s racism and there’s just imaginary thinking and complaining. For years they’ll blame racism for everyyyy thing. If you look or sneeze wrong certain ones will yell racism because they’re momma taught to be black is hard so complain when things don’t go your way even if if it’s not racist just blame game it out.
@Cathyinmidtown not at all. This has been a discussion going on for sometime. I don't think you read through it. I get what you are saying. Though, this is not about that. If you scroll up to the 8th comment, which is to mine, you'll see more of what this is about. From there you can scroll up to the 17th comment which is to @DarrenWalker's to explain the issue more. Or you can read all the comments from both DarrenWalker, and I.
To clarify, and recap a bit.
Someone (who got banned) went out of their way: out of the blue to message another member. The one, and only message read: "I am not into Black men." The is no issue if someone prefers a certain culture, complexion, appearance, whatever. Though when someone, goes out of their way to broadcast to others like that it's a problem! Also, writing off a whole race as unattractive is, they look the same, have the same complexion, etc. that's racist. It's not factual. As well as say, that someone one is so, and so race therefore they must be kinder, or whatever, that is racist. Be attracted to any complexion you want. Though, to communicate that by race is racist because not everyone in that race has the same skin tone.
Though, if you have the time/etc. Feel free to read through all of these responses. Many of us, had something of value to contribute. Things that address the actual issue.
In case you are new here, click/ on the "spoiler" to see more.
@Cathyinmidtown that position you’ve chosen t take is troublesome. It seems to be defensive of bad behavior yet blaming the folks that you are choosing to discriminate against. Confusing, as well as off topic. I apologize if this strikes you the wrong way because i was definitely triggered by your entire comment.
@BashfulLoner just caught something I didn't before. My oh my.
I don't know your situation, and the depth of it. Though, I’d just say, @Cathyinmidtown if you “only date White men” cause you think they are better than other races. Then, that’s racist. I hope you take time to work through yourself, and overcome that.
Edit: though, I’ve no much interest to discuss your dating life here. As this topic was related to platonic cuddling, and I don’t need to get much into your personal stuff. Other than that which relates to platonic cuddles, and general friendly conversations. end of edit.
Not going to speak freely or I'll get the thread closed.
I'll just say I'm with @BashfulLoner and leave it at that.