Celibacy and self love

October 2019

Is celibacy only about sexual abstinence? Is self love only about how one perceives and feel about oneself? Does abstaining from sex make your mind think and feel better about oneself?Is this state of feeling and thinking about the self form of self love? Can it be seen as the highest form of self love? Does this state of mind make for for a deeper sense of touch and a richer cuddle?

October 2019

Not necessarily, but focusing on yourself and your needs before jumping into sex is self love. You do not have to be abstinent to love yourself, just be aware of yourself and put yourself before anything else. Hard to explain, but focus on your needs first. You can still be intimate sexually and non sexual while still loving yourself. Hope that helped.

PeopleLikeUs · October 2019

No. Both celibacy and sex are selfsame for introspection, love, recovery, and anything that one might gain from either.

TheFunCartel · October 2019

No. Celibacy in the Catholic Church has caused irreparable damage from cases stemming from pedophilia.

One can choose celibacy but it does not make you a better person than someone who is not. Plus you never defined why it would be self love. But celibacy, at best, is only self love if it makes you feel better about yourself. If it does not make you feel better then it is self abuse. Pretty simple logic if you get right down to it.

hogboblin · October 2019

Who decides whether celibacy is positive or negative? Is the celibacy voluntary, or involuntary?

What does “pure” entail? By whose standards is something pure or impure? Why should those standards matter in the slightest? Why is purity seen as good or desirable?

Why is celibacy categorized as “self-love”? Did a committee vote on the matter? If so, for what reason was I excluded? Additionally, for the sake of clarity, what is “self-love”, and why should it be taken (apparently) as something of inherent worth?

Why. Just...WHY.

October 2019

@jessecaldwell31 So I hear you say that if one values themselves and putting their needs first that is an act of loving oneself. That is the basic foundation for loving one self. However on the matter if degree of purity that's another matter. Did I get that right?

TheFunCartel · October 2019

@hogboblin Same question I had. Why is it even self-love? The way it was asked makes it seem like it is couched in pseudo-religious terms.

hogboblin · October 2019

@FunCartel

Yeah. I thought I detected some vague sacrosanctity, too.

October 2019

@ hogboblin We each decide. Each of us has that choice. Sometimes situations and other variables collide. Purity is a matter of subjective judgement decided by the committee of each individual' s mind and station. One is free to define celibacy how one feels fit. Self love like many other terms loosely danced about is a social construct that one is free to deconstruct in what ever paradigm one deems fit. Self worth is also another psycho social construct. And one is free to deconstruct it as one deems fit. We all value and cherish the freedom question and reframe as we deem necessary. What exactly is any of these things? On what stool of morality or psychology does anyone sit to decide what criteria qualifies as self worth, self love,purity or any other construct that the mind can conceive?

hogboblin · October 2019

@Bles

Your response, as a whole, is somewhat baffling. I’ll pick at a couple of bits.

“One is free to define celibacy how one feels fit.”

That’s not how words work.

“We all value and cherish the freedom question...”

Uh. What?

Also: what’s the point of this thread?

October 2019

@hogboblin This thread is about stretching and examining concepts based on your own knowledge and experience. Yes there are absolutes. But there are also many variables that affect those absolutes. If you're looking for finite discussion feel free to engage that. All these terms are constructs that mean different things in different people's lives. And sometimes the same individual's life at different life stages and milestone experiences. For me, celibacy is both of state of physical and emotional sexual abstinence. That's just the way my life experiences at different stages has defined it for me. Self love for me is just the mindset and attitude I have toward my self and what's happening in my world now. Again that's just the way my life experience at this stage in my life is defining it for me. 15 years ago I would have had a different view. So how each person views celibacy, self love, for example is very individual even as the expectations from society and it's institutions create very clear norms as to how each person acts. I might be in a state of my mind where I no longer feel full filled by sexual relationships but I'm still involved physically with someone. I'm on a continuum of seeking abstinence but I'm not there yet because I'm still active. I'm in an in emotional celibate state because I am seeking that but not physically practicing it yet. When I choose to be sexually abstinent then my entire mindset has shifted fully to that state of abstinence. But that's my life experience and how I've constructed it. As far as social behavioral norms go I'm only abstinent if I'm sexually not engaging. And that works for me. That's where the individual dynamic goes. Constructs are simply ways to create standards that are normal. But how they show up in each person's life is filled with inconsistencies that are best viewed on a spectrum. That's just my opinion. You are free to narrow the concepts and principles to whatever finiteness you want. There are just no hard and fast and one size fits all paradigm that defines individual experience. That's why opened the discussion the way I did. Thanks for your contribution.

October 2019

I don't really get the connection between celibacy and "self love" or how that idea might even be attainable (self love via celibacy I mean, rather than self love by itself) for most people, after some googling the only things I could come up with seemed to be for people who were going from partner to partner and had difficulty going a while without sex as a kind of learning self respect/restraint thing.

Not something that's going to be applicable a lot of the time.

As @hogboblin pointed out @Bles that not how words work, gonna avoid bringing up meaning/usage/context here and just ask - what do you mean when you say celibacy for the sake of this thread? saying people are free to define words however they want isn't particularly useful when it comes to discussions.

EDIT: words/constructs might mean different things to different people based on their lives and experiences but when it comes to talking to other people it makes considerably more sense to use those words with their established meanings and just describe anything further or if you mean something other than X when you say X. Otherwise communication just breaks down from everyone using the same words and potentially meaning completely different things based on what they want those words to mean.

October 2019

@ Zundar self love and celibacy are not meant to be mutually inclusive. They are two different terms. Please see my response to @ hogboblin And my aim is to have open discussion. That's why I didn't throw my definitions in there initially. I wanted the community to steer it and define and own the discussion. And it would be interesting to see after you're all done how you get to the second part about cuddling. Thanks again for contributing.

hogboblin · October 2019

@Bles

”If you're looking for finite discussion feel free to engage that.”

What does this even mean?

“All these terms are constructs that mean different things in different people's lives.”

Then they lack value as terms. They’re cut from fog. They mean nothing. There’s no substantial conversation to be had here. That’s kind of what I was getting at with my first post, but now this is even more blatantly apparent.

“...emotional celibate”.

Huh.

October 2019

@Bles I'm aware the two are different terms, I was trying to find the connection between them. Not to make them mean the same thing, but to see why the two have anything to do with eachother as I can't really find much of a connection aside from what I mentioned.

There's a difference between having an open discussion and having a discussion where it really isn't clear what the discussion is about. Again, if you leave the definitions of words completely open without anything to base it off other than the experiences of people then you end up with people using the same words and meaning completely different things.

Explaining what you personally mean as a starting point and/or avoiding using vague terms is generally how these things go for that exact reason, there's such a thing as an open discussion that's too open because nobody knows what the other person is saying.

If the community ends up applying its own definition to things as you wanted then how would that work if someone else joined in partway through? would they need to use a word to mean something that doesn't apply to their personal meaning going against the whole point of being able to define words how they see fit - or would they need to interrupt to explain what their personal meaning of the word/any words they use are?

Finite discussion indeed, because an infinite discussion would be an endless pain in the arse.

DonLonG · October 2019

Celibacy is a trigger topic for me.

Consciously I love women and attracted to them, but my unconscious freaks out whenever I get too affectionate with one and cock blocks me. Medically all the plumbing works, until I get to the point where I am very intimate with a woman. Suddenly, a Tasmanian devil lets loose inside my brain and distracts me so much I get too stressed out.

I stopped dating because the oxytocin from cuddles was not worth the stress of forcing myself to have sex to get it. I have since discovered that although the left side of my brain is hetero, the right hemisphere is asexual. And since that side controls the involuntary actions, I've been forced to come to terms with it and been celibate 8 years now to prevent its temper tantrums.

I'm not sure if this would be voluntary or involuntary celibacy in my case. I wish I could make a choice, but I feel like a prisoner to my own subconscious. I have all these needs and desires, and yet the subconscious controls the lock on my cage. My subconscious is a prepubescent boy that believes girls have cooties. It is a constant anchor attached to my heart that I cannot free myself from. And while I wrestle with it every day, my inner child cries abandoned in the corner, starved for affection.

October 2019

For the sake of this discussion self love is loosely defined as the mindset and attitude one has towards oneself . Celibacy is abstinence from sexual activity. But it can be seen on an emotional/ physical continuum as well. All loosely.. The question l posed to the thread is is abstinence from sex an expression of. a consequence of the purest form of how one sees the self or feel about oneself? Purest loosely defined by degree of quality to the highest. So to put it simply: does not having sex now, for a few months a few years or totally put one's mind in a state where it can appreciate itself more or better or to the highest potential that is possible for that person? And if so how? What does it look like to appreciate oneself to one's highest potential? How does not having a flood of oxytocin and seratonin fill your Brain and muscle cells help you appreciate your self?More or better?
The second part of the question asks if not having sex put one's mind in a state where it can reach it's highest potential allow that person to be a better cuddler? Does the state of mind in it's highest potential open up that person's senses to a certain state where s,/he had a more or better sense of giving and receiving touch than another person who isn't?

October 2019

@Bles

Can celibacy be considered the purest form of self love?

Celibacy is the state of abstaining from marriage and sexual relations. It comes from the Latin caelibatus, "unmarried state."

Can not getting married (or laid) be considered the purest form of self love? Uh.... Is getting married a form of self love? Is getting laid? How many forms does self love have?

Frankly, it's got a lot. Whatever you do is "a form of self love" if you're doing it because you love yourself.

If celibacy is a thing you're doing because you love yourself, then it's a form of self love. But is it the purest form? Eheheheheh. Only if marriage and/or sex are impure!

Does a celibate mind allow a deeper more enriching cuddle experience?

Deeper than what? More enriching than what?

You seem to be suggesting that people who occasionally engage in nonplatonic behavior may be worse at cuddling than those who don't. As a happily celibate asexual, I can tell you firmly that this is not so. I am not a better cuddler than, say, my married siblings. Or their spouses. Or my parents.

People who love themselves engage in a lot of different behaviors, platonic and nonplatonic. There's no point trying to figure out what form of self love is "purest," and platonic cuddling can be done well by everyone who knows how to be happy with what they've got.

Not having sex doesn't somehow make a person "better" than everyone else.

It doesn't "put your mind in a state where it can appreciate itself more" (in fact in some cases it does the exact opposite). It doesn't "put your mind in a state where it can reach its highest potential." This is making not having sex way too mystical.

Trust me: I'm an expert in this area.

October 2019

@DarrenWalker Thanks for your contribution. That's exactly the kind of discussion I'm looking for. There is no suggestions my part that any one of the above-mentioned is better. It's a rhetorical question meant to stir lively debate. I think have achieved that. Thank you.
To the community please carry on with the discussion/debate. Thanks again to you all for participating. Carry on. I take my leave.

TheFunCartel · October 2019

I think this whole thread is an exercise in time wasting. Celibacy is simply a personal decision. The wording of self-love is irrelevant. One could easily argue that a playah is full of self-love and sees no need for moderation. This is a foolish discussion.

October 2019

@Bles: [amused] There's no suggestion on your part that any one of the above-mentioned is better, nooo. Implications aren't a thing. Leading questions don't actually lead anywhere.

"Is celibacy only about sexual abstinence?"
No, it's also about abstinence from marriage.

"Is self love only about how one perceives and feel about oneself?"
Yes.

"Does abstaining from sex make your mind think and feel better about oneself?"
Only if you're that type.

"Is this state of feeling and thinking about the self form of self love?"
Only if you're that type.

"Can it be seen as the highest form of self love?"
Only if non-celibacy is somehow lower.

"Does this state of mind make for for a deeper sense of touch and a richer cuddle?"
No.

@FunCartel's right—this thread's a time-waster.

PeopleLikeUs · October 2019

I find it interesting that a woman started this thread and only men followed. In that regard, this thread is not a waste at all.

October 2019

@PeopleLikeUs:

A. Assumptions.
B. A foolish discussion doesn't get less or more foolish depending on the sex/gender of the people involved.

PeopleLikeUs · October 2019

Men are really bad at abstinence.

TheFunCartel · October 2019

@PeopleLikeUs I suppose men must be really good at broad generalizations since you just made one.

PeopleLikeUs · October 2019

@FunCartel - that's like saying "I know you are but what am I" That's the kind of adolescence to which I am referring about my own gender.

TheFunCartel · October 2019

But it is the truth. Darren called you out on faulty logic and then you made a generalization without debunking any points made. That is what an adolescent would do. Instead of looking at what was said by everyone you went to the “when all else fails I will resort to a stereotype”. The sad thing is you failed to notice how many of the respondents are asexual. Big time generalization bro (since you like adolescent insults).

TheFunCartel · October 2019

Or....maybe no women responded because they know this thread is pointless.

October 2019

It is pretty funny.

Me: "A stupid question is stupid no matter who asks it, and a waste of time is a waste of time no matter who's wasting it."

@PeopleLikeUs: "Men are all horndogs."

Everyone else: "...What?"

@FunCartel: Maybe the women who would've responded just aren't online yet. Could be. I mean, it's not like men (and agendered types) have a monopoly on time-wasting with dumb online discussions....

PeopleLikeUs · October 2019

Any discussion between men about men not having sex is worthwhile. It's a subject that is core to men paying for cuddles, paying for sex, and following their sex organs from one chapter of their lives to the next. This is not a waste of my time. I'm glad to have the conversation.

October 2019

@PeopleLikeUs: This topic suggests that celibacy is the highest, purest form of self-love, and that there are all kinds of mental and emotional benefits to sexual abstinence. A lot of asexual folks (not all men, hi, I'm here, I exist) responded saying "No, that's taking it too far." And it is.

If you're so desperate to be told that your bits aren't the be-all and end-all of your life that a thread like this seems like a good one... whee. I'm sorry, man. That's rough.

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