@PeopleLikeUs: Actually, you might want to take a nap. Come back and read this stuff with fresh eyes later. You're not doing well at the moment. Too much stereotyping, not enough clear thinking.
"Men are bad at self-control when it comes to sex! Men are bad at being nice to people online!"
All I've been saying is that this discussion isn't a productive one. The question was a bad one. The responses are all circular. It has nothing to do with reproductive organs or social roles—the discussion's a waste of time because the questions were stupid and the only answers that can be given are repetitive and pointless.
Take a break. Take a breath. Try not to think in stereotypes. Then come back later and try again. Pay attention to what's actually being said.
@taulkat Because it is learned behavior that arrives at a really young age.
@DarrenWalker It's not a productive conversation for you. I get it. Your tautological approach is welcomed.
My tautological approach is welcomed? Good lord, why do people say things they don't mean?
For one thing, @PeopleLikeUs, I'm not the one who says things like "If men practiced abstinence [that is, if they didn't have sex] they would not be as likely to pay for sex." I don't have a tautological approach to that statement: that statement is tautological all on its own.
And do you really welcome me pointing things like this out? You don't seem to.
Edited to add italics because I thought it might make reading that particular paragraph easier.
@PeopleLikeUs that is just not true. You have only your experience to pull from, so you cannot know how difficult it would be for any individual to be celibate. You are inferring from incorrect assumptions based on how society presents women. Sexuality and sexual desire is not just a learned behavior. Self control is, however. As a woman, I can tell you that it is easy to find willing sexual partners, and temptation is everywhere for everyone who has sexual desire. You should educate yourself before you speak for other individuals. There are female sex addicts. There are non binary sex addicts. This crosses the boundaries of gender.
@taulkat Today a Facebook female friend started off with the following post.
An acquaintance from long ago once said to me: “The best way to get over a man is to get under another one.” What do you guys think of this statement?
The conversation went from having sex to recover from a breakup to not having sex at all. In other words, full spectrum. That has been my experience in conversations with women about abstinence (or celibacy. We seem to be using those terms interchangeably). They talked about every aspect of the entire spectrum of possibilities.
Men don’t. In pretty much the same style as this thread indicates, men don’t have a lot of experience in the area of abstinence. They never broach the conversation about abstinence as a possibility. In general, they have no protective mechanism built into their relationship expectations. Most can’t even discern between superficial involvement, companionship, friendship, or romance all of which are learned behaviors.
Anybody can learn to go a full year without sexual activity. The level of angst involved will certainly vary from person to person as does the level of personal growth. We’re all different and for each person, you can get a different set of reactions to such a practice. But one of the reactions that is common amongst men is resentment toward the way in which society presents women.
I agree with you that “Sexuality and sexual desire is not just a learned behavior. Self-control is, however.” That’s what I’m talking about to a certain degree.
@DarrenWalker I am sincere. I accept your approach to this conversation whatever that turns out to be. If that's where you're at, I'm with you. I respect your insight here.
@PeopleLikeUs when I was abstinent (not by choice, by circumstances) for 6 months, I felt unloved, inadequate, unattractive, and worthless. None of those things were true. My partners at the time still valued me as a person. My male partners have a much easier time with periods of celibacy. You have a weird preconceived notion that men suffer more when it is highly individualistic.
@taulkat I meant to convey that we’re all different and for each person, you can get a different set of reactions to such a practice. I didn't mean to imply that men suffer more. I think men are encouraged from a young age to have lots of sex through education, the media, and other men.
Yes, "None of those things were true." So would you consider the practice of abstinence as helpful or a hindrance? Did it help or just hurt?
@PeopleLikeUs I think established gender roles hurt everybody. Forcing people into roles that are unnatural to who they are as an individual. And as stated previously, I think abstinence is a valid personal choice but that is should not be forced on people as the only valid choice. Nothing I have said on that topic has changed.
@taulkat Yes, Established gender roles hurt everybody. Like fingerprints, everyone has a different gender.
@taulkat wrote:
Thank you. All these sweeping generalizations about men and celibacy which are being walked back and modified with each post are also pretty much debunked by this post and your other recent post. You are absolutely on point that men telling women what feminism is or isn’t is chauvinistic and condescending at best and possibly misogynistic at worst. Celibacy is a choice and the fact of the matter is too many make it an either-or choice.
In a 2017 article in Psychology Today entitled “Moderation Is The Key to Life” it talks of how we live in a “culture that valorizes extremes” and proceeds to provide examples in love, work and other facets of life of how the extremes are unhealthy and moderation is the healthiest choice. Abstinence is an extreme as much as promiscuity. In the article abstinence would be a form of avoidance and promiscuity would be a form of unmoderated impulsiveness and both can be very problematic, whereas moderation is ideal because one can enjoy sex but understand that not every interaction is a sexual one. Moderation, as presented by several studies in the article, forces one to actually think about choices and decisions rather than flicking to an extreme. This is why to even view celibacy as a form of love is a fallacy—extremes are unmeasured responses and can incubate long term anxiety in many cases.
What a strange topic for this site.
@taulkat Are you referring to celibacy and self-love?
It just seems counterintuitive to bring up any sex related topics on a platonic cuddle website.
@taulkat I understand but it seems to be a long time CC tradition
@FunCartel The Psychology Today article makes no mention of what we are talking about here. But as a framework for yourself, I can see where an everything-in-moderation approach would work at setting rational, realistic expectations.
@PeopleLikeUs You want them to cover every single topic that it would apply to? Then you are talking about a book. This is very similar to reading a clinical abstract where you can extrapolate and apply the research to other possibilities. It is how epistemology is scientifically built brick-by-brick, not by conjecture, generalizations and stereotypes. A big example of this is CKTS—Convergence of Knowledge and Technology for the benefit of Society that is a rewiring of how advancements are made. Basically it studies how a breakthrough in psychology may be extrapolated and applied to a breakthrough in nanotechnology. If you just read the words on a page and fail to grasp such a simple concept that the Psychology Today article presented and how that can be applied logically across several examples then maybe you should stick to a basic either-or view of things such as sex or celibacy.
@PeopleLikeUs And it does tangentially touch on abstinence from things as a form of avoidance, which is not viewed in the positive sense, but they state there exceptions to the rule as when it is a question of addiction—then abstinence as far as alcohol, drugs or even sex is preferable.
For me, celibacy=depravation, so the complete opposite of self-love.
This is from my experience and may not have any bearing on another's.
The times I have not been able to get what I want, whether sex or love or chocolate, when I have sat with the craving and the aggression below it, something has opened that is deeper than the craving. In that opening, I have found a wellspring of love. I imagine exploring celibacy/abstinence is an opportunity to explore living deeper than one's cravings and potentially opening up to this love that requires no conditions to be met.
Some people don't express themselves logically; some people weren't born with the articulate gene; some people are whimsical, intuitive, and poetic. Getting pounded with "stupid" was probably not that great an experience to have on a site that on the surface seems to be about humans being affectionate with each other.
@littermate "when I have sat with the craving and the aggression below it, something has opened that is deeper than the craving. In that opening, I have found a wellspring of love"
That resonates with me -- thank you for expressing it in such a clear way. Now I want to cuddle you!
@respectful Big grin.
I want to modify my first statement with: [Both abstinence and sex are selfsame for introspection, love, recovery, and anything that one might experience from either.]
I swapped out celibacy because celibacy has several meanings, abstinence does not. After discussing this topic here this weekend, I walked away with the new understanding that abstinence can result in trauma for some. So I also swapped out "gain," which was a supposition on my part with the word, "experience." My attempt was to form a sentence that places sex on the same learning plane as abstinence.
Many men have no choice for medical reasons but you can learn to accept it