Set a cuddle date based on chivalry!
Chivalric codes mainly dealt with how to murder people. Does this movie feature lots of murder?
Also: is this an advertisement?
Someone is always the loser in death. I can't speak for the other side. The victor makes history.
I was just trying to set the mood not argue semantics. I obviously failed. Hobgoblin how can I repair the mood?
Between your username and the film name, I hear the horses tramping and snorting, the swords striking and the drama ramping up. It sounds like you achieved your goal. Cuddle to a good period tale with me oh people of the realm! That's what I hear you saying.
What.
I might be smoking dope @hogboblin - trying to climb into his world .
As Abigail Collazo once said, "Chivalry is a behavior that masquerades as a courtesy while concealing a dramatic assertion of inequality between the sexes. There is no way around it: it's about viewing women as fragile, delicate creatures who require special treatment."
I like armor and swords and murdering other people as much as the next guy, but the bits of chivalry that focus on women... yeah, they kind of suck. To quote Collazo again:
"Courtesy is demonstrating consideration for others regardless of gender: holding doors open, picking up something someone else drops or offering a seat on the bus. Doing these things for women just because they are women, however, is not courtesy. It’s chivalry. It’s a reinforcement of the idea that they needed help and assistance where men wouldn’t have."
In short: be good to people because they're people. Not because they've got certain private bits or social roles.
Set a cuddle date based on courtesy.
Ah, stereotypes.
My dear Darren, I love you like the cuddle buddy that I have yet to experience, but once again I think you are speaking with a pseudo authority over the entirety of human existence. Chivalry does not persist because men see women as weaker (some men do) it persists because women demand it (some women do not.) Talk to married men who's wives lament that they dont get the door like they used to. Same in long relationships women want the practice and men are reprimanded when they are not fulfilling it. So it persists, not because of men but because of women. It is not an evil view of women inferiority, it is what it is. At its heart it is a kindness that as you said should be practiced to everyone but not everyone wants it. I have been yelled at from all types for opening a door etc. but I have been thanked by multitudes more so I persist.
@littermate can you be a warrior princess and still want the door opened for you? Do you see chivalry and women empowerment as mutually exclusive? No tricks, honest questions.
Although i wonder if we should start a new thread. this may hijack this one.
@snuggleme123 oh, I am so many things and I enjoy it all. I tend to see the beauty in all things human, so I personally don't perceive a man opening a door, helping me carry stuff, brushing the snow off of my car, etc. as an implication of my fragility but as a kindness. Sometimes I see them doing it more from duty than heart, and then I feel compassion, because I have done things out of duty myself.
I have places of great strength and especially as I get older, places where my vulnerability likes to lean into strength. I can also be strong and have someone lean into me. My warrior is no longer angry and my vulnerability no longer feels humiliating but sweet. I basically experience men as well-meaning dears even when they say or do dumb things because I know that I am a well-meaning dear when I do.
I no longer need as I did when young to prove that as a women I'm as badass, or strong, or smart as you. I no longer need you to behave in a certain way so that I can be reflected well. I know I rock and i know I'm an idiot--same as you: human.
Finally, I prefer to lovingly instruct than to viciously shame. Thanks for asking.
@snuggleme123
Have you read much history? Specifically, history as it pertains to the aristocracy of the Middle Ages? You know, the group whose ideas directly resulted in chivalry?
@hogboblin thrilled to have you open the historic roots of this topic and interested in all that you have to share.
There are a lot of common sayings and phrases that evolve and lose their historical meaning. Context changes . Meanings become obsolete . Adopted meaning and popular definition becomes normalized . These days being referred to as chivalrous means something different than it did centuries ago . It's just not the same thing anymore.
@pmvines well said. If @Erant were willing to step into the fray, I'd love to hear the spirit of his invitation from his perspective, as I'm sure it had innocence and well-meaningness at its core. I see often that men's current sense of what chivalry means (being ignorant of the roots @hogboblin has studied) is simply a way to channel the male heart into action in a world that gives men few avenues for that. I hate to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater. Can we make room for each other's hearts while we also convey information that might school us in how to become ever more respectful of each other?
I definitely meant it in what I consider the current era, to be generous, polite and helpful. To bring a smile to ones face. I'm excited specifically about this movie because of the genuine positive vibes along with time travel. Reminding me of the movie Kate and Leopold. Hoping it steers near to the new experiences that each can share. Leading to a genuine appreciation of each other while changing each others outlook on life for what I feel is the better.
@pmvines
The romanticized idea of chivalry is still based upon a code that treats women as inferior things, meant mainly to breed, and to inspire verse with their looks. Such a focus was placed upon appearances that noble women, during a good portion of the Middle Ages, weren’t expected to walk on their own because of their fashionable garb. Women with notions (an interest in being useful outside of looking nice and breeding) were outliers, and were often accused of maleficium if they didn’t have the right blood in them. And even then, sometimes, having the blood of the Christian God flowing through your veins wasn’t quite enough.
That sort of environment gave birth to chivalry.
While things do change overtime, as you say, the complications inherent of chivalry (as it applies to women and how they should be treated) have remained constant throughout the ages. No amount of mawkish sentiment or fantastical whims can change that.
To paint chivalry as ideal, in any manner whatsoever, is so ill-informed as to be either:
a) naïve b) stupid
Or, often, it’s an attempt to market something to an audience with a misunderstanding of what the past was like.
Thank you @Erant for showing up despite the potential damning climate. Thank you @hogboblin for your historical perspective.
I find that there's room in here for innocence, well-meaningness, and the celebration of the good behind intention, as well as education all around for all of us so we can move from naive well-meaningness to educated care.
Gotta go but am looking forward to a respectful conversation in this war-torn area where we're generally so apt to just thump and shame each other.
@hogboblin I don't believe it's ideal and yes it can be seen as pandering or condescending to some . My general rule is to treat folks of all genders with consideration above myself regardless and if they are offended by it or feel I am treating them as my inferior I will adjust my approach with them
What up peeps. I am back after a long day. Many great points have been made by all. @pmvines I agree the old has evolved into the new and is its own thing now. As @littermate points out our realities are fluid and are ever changing. I would say that there are almost 7 billion people on this rock each with their own perception of any concept that is based on the experience and influences that shape it for that individual. The idea that any of us can make a blanket statement that is true across seven billion souls is folly. I respect @DarrenWalker a lot as a person that is searching truth but the assertion made was too broad. No truth is true for all and projecting our reality over others many times will fail.
As I said before I do not believe men push chivalry more than women demand it from us. I dont think it is a bad construct.
My personal view in my heart is it is not looking down on women but honoring their greatness. Akin to how I honor a veteran with a handshake and a thank you, or how I would honor an elder or hero. To me it is more a humbling of self in service than a puffing up in a show to denigrate and is one of the true joys in being a man. To me,
@littermate, I would happily open the door for you and I believe you would happily go through it, understanding and appreciating the respect intended by the act. I was taught to respect women, starting with my mother, and this was modeled by my father. I think this is true for many if not most men of my generation. I feel for those who were brought up in difficult homes with fathers who did not respect their wives or other women.
@littermate I hope you know I ment know shame toward you. Just wanted a lady's opinion. I agree with all you said. We all have weaknesses and ironically great strength comes when we come to grips and accept them. Im glad you are understanding with men cuz I say stupid crap a lot. 😎
My chivalry is gender-neutral, I would give up my seat for a pregnant man, as I would for a pregnant woman. I did feel embarrassed at taking an offered seat from a woman half my age, after I'd overdone it on a half-marathon. Geoff
@11rollover you are correct. @snuggleme123 I totally didn't feel any shame from you. I was referring to how we women can sometimes viciously shame a man when some loving instruction might suffice. You said nothing that offended me.
Wheee lots of posts and I've just got a few minutes between shifts hooray.
@snuggleme123: I think you might be misunderstanding me—I'm not saying "don't open doors for women." I'm saying "don't open doors only for women." Chivalry persists because women like being treated politely, and men can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that people other than women might like to have doors opened for them, too.
Chivalry is when a man does something nice for a woman not because they're both people, but because he's a man and she's a woman.
Saying women are greater than men (and you want to honor their greatness), or that they're weaker than men (and you want to aid them in your strength)—either way, it's making approximately half of humanity not equal to the approximate other half. It's setting them up on a pedestal, or looking down at them condescendingly, or somehow both. And any way you slice it, it's taking men and saying they don't deserve to have doors opened for them or seats given up.
Sometimes one person is exhausted and another person is in good shape to stand. Why should the tired one be embarrassed when the energetic one says "here, take my seat"? What kind of stupid set of social rules says that even if you're completely worn out, you shouldn't sit if it means a younger, less tired person (with boobs) has to stand?
Chivalry says: "Who ought to get a seat depends on gender." Courtesy says: "Who ought to get a seat depends on who needs it most."
Gender doesn't make anyone more (or less) deserving of courteous treatment. You know what does? Humanity. Personality. Actions. Decent behavior. Or just plain being another sentient being on this earth. Does a man (or an enby) have to be a war veteran before you'll open a door?
TL;DR Do those "chivalrous" things for EVERYBODY. Respect EVERYBODY. That's courtesy.
A lot of conflating chivalry into romantic chivalry when there were various chivalrous historically. Chivalry was born from military intentions and class privilege, and military chivalry contained the notion of compassion and courtesy for the weak regardless of gender. Furthermore, which country’s chivalric codes are you referring to? Chivalric codes were common worldwide—Samurai in Japan, Cossacks in Russia, etc. What everyone is contesting—holding a door—is one scrap that survived of a vast conglomerate of codes.
Chivalry is only the origin story for many common courtesies. Too many attach meaning in the act of a courtesy to elitist misdeeds from centuries ago instead of looking at the courtesy as merely an intentional act of social nicety. If one places the burden of history on everything we would be paralyzed. For example, condemning all the people who drive Volkswagens because the company was birthed by the Nazis.
@FunCartel Well said. The key to debate is cherry picking certain details to conflate into your debate topic. I don't believe that the OP was doing that, but as you know, we here on CC like to take the ball and run with it...
@DarrenWalker
I have opened doors for every walk of life in my many years. Old, young, women, men, vets, draft dodgers, gay, straight, confused, wheel chair. crutches, sighted, blind, smart, stupid, to be honest I have on more than one occasion held the door for a woman just because she was gorgeous smokin hot hottie and my other brain took over. I know...the evil male. Oh the horror.
Really the bulk of you post was taking a couple statement of mine and employing reductio ad absurdum as well as making universal statements that just dont exist. The reality is your reality will more often not be reality in others reality. You have a need to put everything in neat little boxes and project that universally and the universe is messy. The majority of parts in an orchestra are may not make sense on their own, they may even be discord to your ears but when played with all the others it produces amazing beauty. We must try not to only play our part we have in the song of life but appreciate the discord as well.
I am what I am and I will continue to open doors for women Just because I see honor in it. Fell free to rail against chivalry. I have my reality and you have yours. I am ok with that. There is peace in acceptance.
I'm going to straight-up state here that when I say "chivalry" I mean it in the modern sense: Being generous, polite and helpful—but only if you're a man, and only to women.
Edit: Frankly, @snuggleme123, I want you to keep on opening doors for "old, young, women, men, vets, draft dodgers, gay, straight, confused, wheel chair. crutches, sighted, blind, smart, stupid," etc. That's what I call courtesy. Politeness. Doing decent things for others not because you're a man and they're women, but because you're a person and so are they.