If you don't want to put more effort into this,
I'm OK with people disagreeing with me, but it frustrates me that you have ignored the points I've actually made.
Notably, I did put in the effort. It didn't work.
I do know that generally, the results achieved from pretty much anything in life is directly and causally related to the investment put into it.
I could not disagree more. I could invest enormous amounts of time and energy into turning rocks into gold, or lighting a fire by snapping my fingers, or any of a number of other inane and hopeless tasks. You've got to do things that make sense. Trying to meet women on a site that hardly has any women does not make sense.
@xelda and @quixotic_life Yes to everything you’ve both said!!
@CuddleMeLater If you had messaged me, I would have replied. I reply to everyone and keep conversations going - even with people too far away to likely meet - as long as it’s mutual, respectful, interesting, platonic, intelligent, doesn’t give me the creeps, isn’t constantly negative, and within the bounds of everything Xelda mentioned. Women like me exist! But yes, I understand the frustration. This is a lazy time to be alive. People tend to pick the path of least resistance which means ghosting or ignoring others. This will be found everywhere and on any platform or means of interaction, sadly. But some of us have the chutzpah to be direct!
I am still waiting to get a reply from myself.
I know I’m just a pro and I don’t have experience being an enthusiast and I’m not a male surrounded by 300 other men in an area that only has 3 enthusiast women, but I’d like to put a small thought in here. It’s derived from what @quixotic_life said and a little of @CuddleMeLater afterwards.
I know a lot of guys send a thoughtful message to show they care and are most likely absolute sweethearts but the majority of men on here send messages like “you’re so sexy” “Man, what I would do to you” “I wanna kiss you” “Wat up?” “Let’s f$&k” “Give me your number”
So it should be understood in the enthusiast women’s POV, you really really have to stand out. The main point I’m making is quixotic was saying something like “you need to be polite in your messages” so yes, people like CuddleMeLater are saying “that’s what I do”, and that’s awesome!! But the main thing is that you guys are far and few between. If the community wasn’t so toxic and filled with men propositioning women and women selling themselves sexually (on a platonic site), I think it would be a lot easier for an enthusiast woman to pick more men. But there is no guarantee for safety for them. So for men saying “ I get that women get bombarded with shitty guys, but I’m not a shitty guy. I’m a nice guy”. But we don’t know that! A lot of guys will send a generic “how are you” message which seems basic and nice enough, but right after that, cue in the derogatory messages after. It’s just so difficult to know which one of you is actually a nice guy not trying to get busy, ya know? So yes, it’s hard to get responses from enthusiast women, but I’m sure it doesn’t help that there are so many more men.
I will say this: to see both sides, not trying to demean or belittle what men go through, but even though women have more options, enthusiast women have a harder time in a different way. I can definitely empathize with how painful constant rejection is, but for a woman to get constantly sexualized and be made to be seen as just a piece of meat is so much more demoralizing and degrading and disheartening. There are sooo many nice women on here; enthusiast and pro that would gladly answer and have a good chat, and there are soooo many incredible gentlemen on here who know how to converse without it getting sexual. People DO reply. It’s just such a large, complicated world for both sides that a specific goal just seems so unattainable. All that matters is that we keep spreading love and answering the polite messages in hopes that they aren’t rude messages and try to get along with each other without having expectations for the other side when we don’t fully know how it feels to be on the other side.
(All of this coming from a pro that doesn’t know what it’s like to be on either side ((except getting the sexualized degrading messages)) but take it at face value and I hope it shines some light)
💖💖
@Sheena123 🎉👏👏👏👏👏💖
Once again I agree with @CuddleMeLater . Yes, I am referring to dating sites. @quixotic_life by emotionally messy I mean creating the sort of deep connection with someone the suggestions hint towards. If this is a person that you are not entering a romantic relationship with then you shouldn't put in the amount of effort you would to enter a relationship.
Also, with these other sites, is one actually rewarded (with enthusiastic cuddle partners) when zero to minimal effort is put in? Or is the above advice (from @Xelda and others) still applicable on those platforms as well?
Actually yes. Granted the advice from @xelda is still recommended but miminal effort will still get you more success. This is more a function of few people are on this site.
If you don't have the energy or mental state for a relationship, I'm not sure that any other relationship-type site will be any easier. I'm not quite following the logic here. Are you saying that negotiating a cuddle relationship is more emotionally messy and requires more energy than any other kind of relationship? -@xelda
This website advertises itself as a place to heal without that burden. If you have to do the same work as getting a relationship, you might as well just go get a relationship ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It's harder here than elsewhere in large part because there are fewer people. So, more work for less "reward". Ideally it would only be as hard as asking a friend to get drinks.
I'd also be very hesitant to say that female cuddle enthusiasts would have more success elsewhere. Again, I'm assuming you're referring to more general relationship sites, and I might be wrong about that. -@xelda
I guess I was not exactly clear. For many women, this site is more effective. Mostly because the gender ratio is in their favor. However, unless if you are a woman looking for a very specific type of relationship you would still have similar success rates elsewhere. On this point, I'd note that most of the women who post in the forums are looking for something different than most of the men in the forums.
I can say for certain and from experience that this is not true. Not for anything except video games (where the outcome is predetemined) and exercise.
I feel like I'm spending way too much energy trying to convince people that putting some work into it is worth the effort.
I mean I met people from this site. I know what the possible "reward" for my efforts is. It isn't worth anymore energy than I have already put in. Not when that same amount of effort could be more "rewarding".
@Sheena123 The problem is the 300: 3 ratio. I understand the need to stand out when you have competition and when those before you have let a sour impression. My point is that is isn't worth the effort. I'll agree that what you experience is hard in a different way. I don't think you should compare the experience though. More importantly, I am not blaming the women on this site for anything. There simply isn't enough people. Understanding that means you just have to go where you can meet your needs.
Again, I still have an account. I still check sometimes. I am posting on the forum. I hope that this site can one day have enough people to be comforting, it just isn't now.
edit: [fixed emoji]
@EGio
If you had messaged me, I would have replied.
That's great! I appreciate that. Really.
But most women don't. It's great for women on the forum to say what they would do, but it's very different from what the women I encountered on the site actually did do.
I see that you are in Phoenix (at least sometimes). I just did a search for non-pros within 50 miles of Phoenix who've been online in the last week.
There are 173 men and 13 women.
So... I mean... I feel like I'm being a bit of a broken record here, and being a downer when others are trying to be cheerleaders. But I just don't understand the need to encourage people to do something they are almost guaranteed to fail at. Especially when they could succeed if they just did it somewhere else! It's definitely possible to meet women! But you should probably try to do it at a place where men don't outnumber women by a factor of 10 or 20. I wouldn't have thought this would be a controversial point.
@FunCartel
@xelda
This is not merely untrue but dangerously misleading. Please do not say it again, ever.
What is true is that success almost always requires considerable investment. Investment is necessary for success, but it is not sufficient. (The most important quantity is invariably luck.)
For every entrepreneur (or gold medal winner, or whatever you like) that succeeds, there are a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand, who worked just as hard and just as smart and did not succeed.
As @lonelybutmaybe points out there are a couple of fields where investment and result are well correlated, but they are specific and exceptional.
I’m so glad you’ve had a lot of good luck on here Duncan!!! I would love a good cuddle! I don’t understand why I don’t get responses. I am kind and respectful, and definitely brief! Maybe I just don’t know the right things to say in the first message >< but there’s not a lot of people in my area either >< so that’s definitely part of the problem. But we will see, I haven’t given up for good yet!
@malogy
I would love a good cuddle! I don’t understand why I don’t get responses
You don't get responses because there are 44 men near you and 7 women. That's it. That's the whole reason. You're not doing anything wrong.
Who would have thought that someone posting about their success and what they did to achieve that success would generate so much discussion!?
Can someone teach me how to do that cool indent thing so it's obvious which comments I'm responding to? Until then...
CuddleMeLater says: I'm OK with people disagreeing with me, but it frustrates me that you have ignored the points I've actually made.
xelda responds: I'm confused by your frustration at me specifically. What have I ignored? My original post in this thread was in response to the the OP and his success. I see you directed something to me later (ie: What's the point? Most men will never success because of the terrible odds), and I responded to that. I see no other posts to me after.
CuddleMeLater says: Notably, I did put in the effort. It didn't work.
xelda responds: I'm sorry to hear that you haven't achieved the results you were hoping for. I can definitely understand that it can be very frustrating to hear suggestions of things you've already tried and aren't working. If you are finding success elsewhere, that's great! My focus right now is for this site and my newfound excitement at finding a community of cuddling, so that's where I'm putting my energy. Please don't be hostile at me for that.
CuddleMeLater says: Trying to meet women on a site that hardly has any women does not make sense.
xelda responds: And yet we are on a thread that started with someone excited about how many cuddle dates they have lined up this week! Do you see the irony?
Can someone teach me how to do that cool indent thing so it's obvious which comments I'm responding to?
Put a > at the beginning of the line you want to quote. Click the Preview button to make sure you got it right.
What have I ignored?
Doesn't really matter. But I felt like some of your comments like this:
If you don't want to put more effort into this, that's totally fine and up to you! But then what you get out of it is on you.
were a little out of step. It's not "on me". The reason I didn't meet any (non-pro) women here is not because I didn't put enough effort into it. It's because... once again... there are hardly any women here.
And yet we are on a thread that started with someone excited about how many cuddle dates they have lined up this week! Do you see the irony?
That's true. But some of those cuddle dates (honestly, if I had to guess I'd say it's all but one) are with pros. And frustrated posts from men who can't find a cuddle partner recur so often on the forum that people are sick of them. There have been many posts from men who say they've been looking on the site for years to find a cuddle partner and have had no success.
I picture a group of fishermen going to the same lake over and over again day after day, hardly ever catching anything. Every once in a while one of them catches a fish and they all cheerlead and congratulate each other and take it as proof that they can all catch fish if they find just the right bait, learn just the right techniques, come at just the right time of day, etc... Meanwhile if they'd just go to a different lake (you know, one that actually has some fish in it), they'd have some real success with a lot less frustration.
I know! At the start I wondered if anybody would reply at all... thank you all, it's a good thread.
@xelda you can do the indent thing either by clicking on the paragraph sign above the box in which you are writing and choosing 'Quote' from the drop down box, or simply using ">" at the start of the paragraph.
If you want to quote someone, copy the text and put a '>' in front of it.
>type this
and it will look like this
type this
Ooohh, thanks for the quote lesson everyone!
@CuddleDuncan
Ouch, that's harsh. I still stand by what I say, and I think our disagreement is mostly over semantics and degrees of success. Plus I did not include the many other variables to be considered, but I was mostly focused on the topic at hand: work/effort/investment.
So you say success requires considerable investment and is necessary for success. I say results (ie: success) are related to investment. How is that different?
Of course it's not sufficient. Luck is also not sufficient, and not something you can control. Which variable is most important? I don't know, but I think it's more rare to have success based on luck alone than it is to have success based on how much work you've put into something. Since I can control my efforts, but not my luck, I focus on that. Who was it that said, "the harder I work, the luckier I get"?
Example: I plant a garden, educate myself on the kind of work that it needs and then put that work into it. Something unforeseen comes along like bad weather comes along and wipes it out. All my hard work wiped out by bad luck.
I plant a garden, don't know what I'm doing, and ignore it. No amount of good luck is going to give me good results.
The most likely scenario is that I plant a garden, educate myself on what it needs, put the work into it, and I yield a harvest. The amount of harvest yielded depends on all kinds of variables.
@CuddleMeLater might say, "Stop planting your damn garden on pavement!", which is also true.
Maybe we're all a little edgy because no one is getting enough cuddles!
One time my family accidentally grew watermelons by putting old watermelons in the mulch pile. that same year the okra we grew last year just came back. Luck is a powerful force. You certainly can't depend on it though.
@lonelybutmaybe ~ Thank you for clarifying and restating.
This...
LBM: Yes, I am referring to dating sites. @quixotic_life by emotionally messy I mean creating the sort of deep connection with someone the suggestions hint towards. If this is a person that you are not entering a romantic relationship with then you shouldn't put in the amount of effort you would to enter a relationship. [my comments on this are below in the spoiler] QL: Also, with these other sites, is one actually rewarded (with enthusiastic cuddle partners) when zero to minimal effort is put in? Or is the above advice (from @Xelda and others) still applicable on those platforms as well? LBM: Actually yes. Granted the advice from @xelda is still recommended but miminal effort will still get you more success. This is more a function of few people are on this site.
LBM: Yes, I am referring to dating sites. @quixotic_life by emotionally messy I mean creating the sort of deep connection with someone the suggestions hint towards. If this is a person that you are not entering a romantic relationship with then you shouldn't put in the amount of effort you would to enter a relationship. [my comments on this are below in the spoiler]
QL: Also, with these other sites, is one actually rewarded (with enthusiastic cuddle partners) when zero to minimal effort is put in? Or is the above advice (from @Xelda and others) still applicable on those platforms as well?
LBM: Actually yes. Granted the advice from @xelda is still recommended but miminal effort will still get you more success. This is more a function of few people are on this site.
... is absolutely fascinating to me, and has helped to illuminate the disconnect/why I was struggling to understand your views! It's because we're not here for the same reasons!
I'm actually here to cultivate and nurture Platonic Cuddle-based Relationships. And it's because I ultimately want to find people that I'd like to cuddle with, and have hopes we'd both be interested in doing so on an ongoing basis, combined with my need to have already established a degree of rapport and comfort before entertaining the idea of going into an intimate cuddle with someone, that the effort is important to me.
All that said, for me personally, even if I were only looking to have, "one-off cuddles" or "snuggly one night stands", I'd still be putting in and expecting the same level of engagement and effort because we're talking about an intimate interaction between two strangers.
What this looks like played out: 1. Gen messaging ~ introductions & rapport building 2. Messaging specifically related to cuddling 3. Texting/Phone calls for more rapport building and cuddle date details 4. Meeting at our cuddle spot & cuddling
After each step is an assessment ~ If all went well, things move to the next step. If step #4 goes well, then repeat steps 3 & 4 in an indefinite loop. However, if we make it to #4 and it's a bust, oh well. 🤷♀️ But so far that hasn't been the case for me ~ I'd snuggle up with each of them again in a heartbeat!
Anyway, thanks for helping me better understand your thought process/reasoning and to further consider my own.
@quixotic_life I am glad I could clarify! I figured that there was disconnect and honestly I should have stated what the disconnect was more clearly. Yes, I don't think that we are looking for the same thing and honestly I think this is the main friction that forum posters have. There are different reasons to use this site and the aren't necessarily compatible.
That being said, it is also a personality difference. I don't really like the 4 step process you outline even for dating, especially if i feel like i am being tested. If I went through a 4 stage interview to meet, then I definitely like you way more than I like a casual friend. In general, I just think in person interaction is more genuine. So, I wouldn't feel like I built rapport at all until I met you.
If I cuddle with someone and I like them afterwards then I would want to see them again. It isn't really possible to be that close to some and not gain some sort of friendship. It's just the bond would be over cuddling not over something else.
More people means more people who are looking for what I am looking for.
@CuddleMeLater
I don't think many women have the experience with rejection that a lot of men have. Most men learn to live with rejection as a common part of meeting women.
I think this is true. With the ratio of men:women and the fact that men seem to pretty much always be willing to reach out first, I think it's easier for women to meet men than men to connect with women. For a guy, I feel like it's similar to going on a job search and submitting potentially hundreds of job applications, going on many interviews, and continually being rejected for a while until you get that one job offer.
@Sheena123 I've seen many women say the same as you, that many guys send short shallow messages that tend to be off-putting. I think that definitely makes things more difficult. I tend to be fairly polite with my messages though and try to have some content worthy of a good conversation.
The more I read about this, the more I think these two factors might be the most significant:
@xelda: I do know that generally, the results achieved from pretty much anything in life is directly and causally related to the investment put into it. @CuddleDuncan: This is not merely untrue but dangerously misleading. Please do not say it again, ever.
@xelda: I do know that generally, the results achieved from pretty much anything in life is directly and causally related to the investment put into it.
@CuddleDuncan: This is not merely untrue but dangerously misleading. Please do not say it again, ever.
@CuddleDuncan, That’s a pretty emphatic response. Everyone knows success is never guaranteed. But who owns the definition of success? An athlete can be successful without winning a medal. They can represent their country honorably. An entrepreneur doesn’t need to make millions. Maybe scraping by keeps their dream alive. And as naive as it may sound, a lesson learned is also success. Maybe not exciting, but necessary to the process. And in the mundane world of my job, success ($) directly correlates with effort. And when I don’t put in the effort, I’m gonna hear about it.
All this leads to effort placed into a cuddling endeavor. It’s good to have a grasp of the numbers from the start. @CuddleMeLater’s snapshots are helpful, in perhaps explaining why my messages are absorbed into a wall of silence. I actually feel less disappointed. But I haven’t given up with enthusiasts. I do, however, put more effort into connecting with professionals. In my experience, their profiles are typically more well developed. And conversation usually flows smoothly from the start. I don’t understand the notion of putting less effort into interacting with a professional. At the very least, it’s a good way to develop social skills.
The thread seems to be focused on what an individual can do to increase their probability of success. It’s a great discussion. I think, however, it inevitably leads to the question of how do we arrive at a healthier balance in the ratio of men to women? Is the answer as simple as having more men being thoughtful and polite? I don’t pretend to know the answer.
@cualtzin
it inevitably leads to the question of how do we arrive at a healthier balance in the ratio of men to women?
FWIW there's a new thread on fixing this and other problems with the community on this site here.
However, I don't think the ratio can be fixed. There aren't many women here for the simple reason that there aren't many women who want to be here.
@cualtzin @CuddleMeLater I think it can. It just takes a marketing campaign. It's not like only men cuddle.
I think part of the problem is that finding a platonic cuddle buddy as an enthusiast is that it's a huge amount of time and investment for something very casual, that often only lasts a few weeks or months at best. It can take months or years searching on these sites, and quite a large time investment messaging and meeting people in person. Cuddle buddy connections usually only last 3-6 months maximum before fizzling out - most people by that point either want to date or part ways. Often they are only a one off, or just last a few weeks.
I get the impression a lot of people - especially women - would just rather invest their time and energy into finding a romantic partner, as the payoff for the investment is much better and lasts much longer. I have two close friends that I platonically cuddle with from time to time (in a non-professional capacity), but they are not people I met on this site (or any cuddling/dating related website). We just became friends and it naturally evolved from the friendship, as we had a lot in common and enjoyed talking frequently.
@TouchSanctuary described the boat I'm in like she was on the docks looking at it. Unless finding a cuddle buddy is easier than finding a romantic partner it isn't really worth it.
Personally, I think friendship is worth at least as much effort as romance.
But I dunno... maybe that's just me and my cuddle buddy: two weirdos in a sea of "unless friendship is easier than romance, it isn't really worth it." [resigned shrug] Could be, I guess. After all, I tend to wonder: is romance is really more than friendship? Seems to me it's just different. Why should a cuddle buddy be, in some basic, essential way, worth less effort than a romantic partner?
I don't think buddies are worth less. Actually, don't friendships often outlast romantic pairings? Buddies are the best, I think. I value @UltimateChungus more than I've valued anybody I've ever dated.
After all, I tend to wonder: is romance is really more than friendship?
I mean by my definition yes. After all, you should be best friends with your romantic partner (and the best romances start as friendships). I am not sure we'll agree on this though. Me being a hopeless romantic and all.
I think @TouchSanctuary 's point is significant. A related fact is that men can't be choosy because they have so few options. So men are being asked to spend months or years carefully crafting messages, hoping to find someone who will reply and want to cuddle... for what will very likely be a casual, short-term arrangement, possibly only a one-off cuddle... with a woman who the man was not able to select in any way, but just happened to be the one woman who was interested. It just seems so silly to me. Why would anyone do this?
@DarrenWalker
is romance is really more than friendship?
In the eyes of... basically everyone... yes.
That said, I'm not at all opposed to a significant, really affectionate connection with a cuddle buddy. It's just that... you've got to walk before you can run. I'm not going to invest large amounts of time and energy into someone before I've even met them.
Ah. So—shocker—looks like I'm weird.
Oh well. Value is subjective. To me, a friend will never be worth less: to me, it's roses and chocolates that are worthless. (And some other, associated things actually make romance look like far less than friendship to me....)
I see romance and friendship as two different things. You can have both in the same person, or you can have just one. Me, I just want the one—and I don't see it as less than the other.
Even if it's worth less to everyone else.
Personally, I think friendship is worth at least as much effort as romance. But I dunno... maybe that's just me and my cuddle buddy: two weirdos in a sea of "unless friendship is easier than romance, it isn't really worth it." [resigned shrug] Could be, I guess. After all, I tend to wonder: is romance is really more than friendship? Seems to me it's just different. Why should a cuddle buddy be, in some basic, essential way, worth less effort than a romantic partner? I don't think buddies are worth less. Actually, don't friendships often outlast romantic pairings? Buddies are the best, I think. I value @UltimateChungus more than I've valued anybody I've ever dated.
@DarrenWalker personally I take the view that friendship is just as important as romance in a more general sense. Even if I prioritise a romantic partner in my life, I don't think romance is inherently better or superior to a platonic connection.
That said, the vast majority of people don't share this perspective. So even if I may seek out a committed friendship that includes cuddling, the overwhelming majority of people here are looking for something more casual - more like a short-term, "no strings attached" arrangement. It's kind of like the platonic equivalent of a situation where I may want a committed boyfriend/girlfriend, but 95% of people just want a hookup/FWB/casual dating arrangement.
Perhaps what you have in mind is something more along the lines of a committed friendship, a queerplatonic relationship, or a platonic life partner. Someone looking for a more committed type of connection might have better luck on websites, groups and forums for asexual/aromantic people. It also seems that many straight men aren't capable of cuddling long-term with a woman they find attractive as an enthusiast, without developing a crush and hoping for a romantic/sexual relationship.
@TouchSanctuary: Mm. It's a point. I hadn't thought of that—that for most people a cuddle buddy might be more of a one-time-only, casual encounter type of thing. Less buddy, more ships passing in the night.
If all you're looking for is a warm body (with, hopefully, an at least semi-bearable personality attached)... yeah, I can see that not being worth a whole lot of effort.
Makes sense.