@sillysassy he's also been vocally homophobic, racist, and promoted violence and intolerance among his followers, though I'm sure you read some of that in article you linked.
https://medium.com/blunt-therapy/the-bigot-who-wrote-the-5-love-languages-hates-you-e2f65771a1c0
https://valentine-wiggin.medium.com/gary-chapmans-hate-language-homophobia-bea909f0d17e
More reasons why the 5 love languages are inadequate, from an actual therapist: https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/ways-youre-thinking-about-the-love-languages-wrong
I should've known... more -ists and -isms.
@TxTom most people in general don’t have common sense, but especially the guys here. There’s dangers to using things like “love languages” here because it conjures a romantic image.
Example: I had a client aggressively asking me to “love him” and “show him love”. Things got very inappropriate and scary, very fast.
Most people are morons, but aside from that, they’re self-serving. If they can find any words to twist to justify what they want, they’ll do it. Better to give them less material to work with, and stay away from any terms that sound vaguely romantic.
It’s the same reason boundaries are important in therapy. To ensure you don’t regard your therapist as your friend.
Love languages are bs, the dude who made them up is a hateful asshole, and any follow up studies have not shown evidence for this concept. The concept just also has no place here since this is a platonic site
The bummer is that Chapman pretty much coined the phrase "love languages," so now it's hard to talk about "ways people give and receive any type of love or care" without referencing him. The idea of love languages is great, in my opinion, even though I do not agree with the way he laid it out in his book. There's truth to the idea that some people show love more naturally by giving gifts or playing games together while others tend to show love with tons of physical affection. I'm interested to read the more inclusive version mentioned by cuddlefaery. As someone who is neurodivergent and asexual and has had a previous relationship with someone with a physical disability, I can attest to the fact that there are MANY ways to give and receive love outside of the Western church's norm.
In terms of platonic cuddling, though, I'm not sure if we need to think much about love languages. Humans need touch, even if it doesn't come naturally to them, and humans feel cared for when they are touched, because hormones (generally - there are some exceptions). Showing love to my cuddle partner or client through "acts of service" or "gifts" isn't my place and isn't really relevant, right?
@bobadevotee Both of your posts are spot-on, the love language concept doesn't belong on a platonic site. They are stupid at best and dangerous at worst.
sigh I wish people would actually read more about "love languages" other than the 5 and people's reactions to them.
Essentially, the topic of love languages are a communication tool to discuss needs within a relationship... ANY relationship where there is mutual affection. Love is not just romantic or sexual, but our society's insistence on creating a false hierarchy where romantic love is the pinnacle is a large part of what is causing disconnect and loneliness in the first place.
Cuddle partners absolutely can express love and affection for each other and discuss each other's needs without it having to be about romance or sex. In fact, for longer term pairings (whether pro/client relationships or between enthusiasts), I'd argue that discussing emotional and intimacy needs a long with boundaries is imperative for full informed consent and mutual respect to happen.
A communication tool does not need to be science-backed or utilized only in medical therapy in order to be valuable. Most people, including therapists and science researchers, aren't even aware that other systems have been created and utilized by smaller communities for years. Part of the reason the 5 love languages is so well-known is because it does offer people a simple, easy to communicate common language with witch to discuss needs with people whom they interact. That said, the problems of the 5 and their author should not be ignored, thus the need for expanded and updated version that addresses the issues and meets the communication needs of more people.
...because the author of the 5 love languages very specifically caters to an audience of white, cisgendered, heterosexual people. His system is not based off of science but off of his experiences, which exclusively are working as a pastor with married couples who fall into the aforementioned identities.
But then,
...A communication tool does not need to be science-backed or utilized only in medical therapy in order to be valuable....
(Emphasis mine)
So, perhaps then Chapman's 5 Love Languages is fine for specifically "white, cisgendered, heterosexual people," despite some of his personal views, and additional resources should simply be sought out that cater to other categories/groups.
@cuddlefaery You subscribe to the beliefs of "love languages." Many of us don't, regardless of the author or if there's 5 or 25. We just don't want people to be a-holes. As @bobadevotee pointed out, this is a place where even the term "love language" can be dangerous for misinterpretation and conjuring a romantic image.
@starrynitecuds I'm not certain what you mean by a "belief in love languages", given as I explained in my last comment they are simply a communication tool to express needs. Are you trying to imply stating communication tools can be useful is some sort of belief system? If so, I'd love to have a debate with someone who does not believe in communication.
My last cuddle involved tight squeezes. She gave the first, and it was enjoyable so I reciprocated. Definitely a candidate for cuddle languages.
I love receiving scalp massage and my hair being caressed and pulled. But I would never play with someone's hair without asking first.
I also think spooning is definitely cuddle language ☺️
@cuddlefaery I never thought you were endorsing any sort of cuddle languages, merely offering better researched alternatives as @sillysassy started this topic with. Some people fail to read beyond what they write, so I wouldn’t put too much into it.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 actually started the thread.
🛑🚨📢PSA LONG POST HERE Wow.... Okay.... Thank you everyone for sharing.
I can appreciate that we all feel pretty strongly about communicating with other people and there is a lot to unpack here.
@UCpaaHVg6u0 originally said
...we could certainly borrow things that are important in romantic relationships if they don't compromise the safety and platonic ideals of cuddlers.
I agree that it is a challenging thing to cuddle in an intimate way with other people and not have it turn into something toxic. 100%--- If you knew me.... THIS statement from @UCpaaHVg6u0 is HIGH on my priority list. "Can we BORROW ideas without compromising safety and platonic ideals."
@bobadevotee I completely agree that you would not talk to a client about LOVE LANGUAGES because it can set a less platonic tone. This isn't a tool for how to address clients SPECIFICALLY.... Maybe just something we talk about in the forums to understand different perspectives and clarify our own ideals.
There’s dangers to using things like “love languages” here because it conjures a romantic image. It’s the same reason boundaries are important in therapy. To ensure you don’t regard your therapist as your friend.
Absolutely agree about the boundaries and therapy strategies. I can imagine it must be challenging for you to keep framework around this aspect of the Pro/Client partnership even though I can't know what it's like to BE you. In my opinion... and for ME, knowing how to talk to another person and communicate effectively is just as important as knowing whether they like tight squeezes or gentle fingertip touches.
If I know a friend responds more to verbal kindnesses, then I am more prone to take time writing a card for them. IF I know someone needs to touch in order to "feel" an idea, I might write a note about our boundaries so they can touch the paper. I feel this kind of comunication tool can also go hand in hand with learning styles. (like tactile kinistetic learning modalities vs auditory learning)
Helping people to feel they are valued or important WITHOUT turning it into a LOVE SAGA isn't easy to do, especially for you as a pro. _We can't control whether people will twist our words to justify their selfishness._100% agree.
@bobadevotee thank you for sharing your perspective. I'm so sad that you've had to be subject to any kind of agressive ANYTHING!!! Thank you for being a PRO and I am grateful that the CC community has you.
I have to push back a little about the "MOST people are morons" part. I have had some amazing experiences and from my perspective MOST of the people I've connected with have beautiful souls. I am not denying your experience AT ALL but I am also coming from a different point of view as an enthusiast and I want to keep creating clarity.
I can absolutely get behind this truth!!!
I think figuring out communication tools also helps me to understand me better. How I can advocate for myself. I know how important it is if someone priortizes me by taking time out of their schedule to connect with me. Its a HIGH VALUE ITEM. I also know its not important for everyone. Finding a cuddle partner (even if its just a one time thing) takes a lot of courage but also a LOT of communication to have a successful experience. (And I am committed to having SUCCESSFUL EXPERIENCES as much as is humanly possible.) I know I can only be responsible for my side of things, but I think that's why I fight so hard to learn and grow into new ideas and give myself permission to change my mind. i.e. Chapmans' idea was something I thought highly of for a few decades, but now I am seeing some of the more problematic aspects as well because I have a different POINT OF VIEW in my life now.
@cuddlefaery I really REALLY appreciate this.
In fact, for longer term pairings (whether pro/client relationships or between enthusiasts), I'd argue that discussing emotional and intimacy needs along with boundaries is imperative for full informed consent and mutual respect to happen.
I don't think many people take this into account and because of the communication break down there are LOTS of problems, physically and emotionally. That's probably one of the biggest reasons I am advocating so much for the exploration of better communicating between us all as individuals.
I also get it that there will be plenty of people to say "If its not broke don't fix it," and have no need to explore new ideas. Totally fine. No judgement there. I just need other things in my toolbox.
@cuddlefaery thank you for being so brave to share ideas and thoughts that might be subject to ridicule. I am always very grateful for your diligence and research and as always, your wilingness to be mindful and authentic.
Linda Carroll, M.S., LMFT I LOVE THIS ENCAPSULATION!!!
“You are not me” Acts of kindness, seeing our partner as different, and listening to what they need and want are essential skills of making any relationship thrive. These skills are part of what sustains the relationship in the harder seasons. While Chapman's theory helps to explain how to best make a relationship thrive, they are just one part of what makes a successful relationship overall.
Emphasis mine.... 💗💗💗 "Knowing our inner landscape".... Love that.
A flourishing relationship begins with the mindful practice of knowing our own inner landscape and how to bring a healthier, clearer, more receptive, and more mature self to all our relationships, especially our most intimate ones.
@hugo_stieglitz WOW! That must have been an amazing trip! AND holey moley... That's some great karma. You have been coast to coast... Boston to San Diego!
@sillysassy I remember growing up my parents used to say use your words… well, you’ve definitely mastered that art of using your words you communicate so well with your quotes and your bold face lettering and then you even mix up the capitalized words with lowercase words it’s like a roller coaster in an amusement park to read one of your threads. It’s really amazing! 👏🏻
Dont do that....
1) The 16 Meyers-Briggs (MBTI) personality types 2) The 4 DiSC behavioral styles 3) The Insights Discovery 4 “Colour Energies” 4) The Gallup - Clifton Strengths Assessment 5) The Chapman 5 Love Languages
These are all just various models created to help people understand, categorize, and communicate about various aspects of complex and infinitely variable human thoughts, preferences, and actions.
As my favorite statistician (doesn’t everyone have a favorite statistician?) the late George Box once said, “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”
None of these models were engraved on stone tablets and handed down to mankind. They were created by different people, using different methodologies, for different audiences / needs (occupational strengths vs team dynamics vs interpersonal communication).
I have taken all the assessments listed above, some multiple times over the past 30 years. Do I “believe in them”? That is not a simple yes/no question. I found them all to be “useful” but that does not mean 100% accurate. I think of their results more as “clues” rather than “answers”.
Regardless of the origins of the term "love language", the concept has moved into non-romantic context. I've had CPS workers and therapists discuss what a particular child's "love language" is - such as cooking food, drawing/painting pictures for someone, positive reassurance that the child is in a safe home, etc. Clearly, in such a context, there is nothing romantic about the concept.
@Jubal 100% agree. Once “released into the wild” ideas / models take on a life of their own regardless of the original context / intent. If someone finds a new application for an idea, even if they need to modify the idea some to fit the new application, they will do so.
I am a firm believer in the concept of “the market place of ideas” where people can “shop” for ideas / perspectives. Likewise, I believe ideas should stand or fall on their own merits. No idea should automatically be accepted or rejected based on who first thought of it or practiced it. Newer ideas are not automatically better than older ideas and vice-versa.
I think of their results more as “clues” rather than “answers”.
For many of those, particularly the 5 languages and the MBTI they are opinions rather than clues or answers if you consider that they both started from biases and preconceptions based in their beliefs. Ultimately that colors their “answers” if you are different from the base model they work from.
Even the Nazis had personality tests to determine if you were Aryan enough. And in the age of misinformation the marketplace of ideas has become a marketplace of distortion, where the clues are crafted for someone’s agenda and distorted ideas can bring entire groups and nations to heel simply because people felt empowered by a particular idea with little regard if any of it is true. To feel ideas will rise and fall on their own is unfortunately an obsolete concept because technology and the constantly evolving reality it presents by people who use it as a means to an end leaves one questioning what is even real. What rises and falls now is legitimacy and even that is tenuous.
@Jubal I appreciate that perspective.
@JohnR1972
Once “released into the wild” ideas / models take on a life of their own regardless of the original context / intent.
It is this fact that I've been thinking about. The idea/concept of "love languages" becoming so mainstream. It is used by a plethora of people and it has become such a common name that people stop thinking about the fact that it isn't always accurate.
Its like the brand name "Kleenex"... Its sometimes hard to remember that they are just a name. The idea of a tissue is the base line. The need to wipe your nose with something.
@BoomerSpooner
...distorted ideas can bring entire groups and nations to heel simply because people felt empowered by a particular idea with little regard if any of it is true.
What if this IDEA is hurting a large majority of people in our country?
What if... for example...
OUR OVERARCHING NEED AS HUMAN BEINGS IS FOR EMOTIONAL INTIMACY?
What if the thing that is needed as a base line, has been left out completely or distorted beyond recognition?
WHAT IF everyone were taught that they have a need to feel whole, cared for, in a deep way but it isn't always something that anyone else can give us?
I'm going down a path here... Just thinking/typing out loud. (Maybe I should spoil it because it is a bit frightening to talk about some of this stuff)
90% of the USA reports in the polls as Christian. (1990) Love Languages comes out in print based on study of Christian couples (1995) Time, Touch, Gifts, Acts of Service, Words of Affirmation become synomymous with giving recieving care/affection The majority of Christian teaching follows along with a few big Patriarchial ideas ---i.e. Men need touch but not emotional connection. Women need relationships and should do what men say.
I know this is a very simplistic list and I'm only touching on a few ideas that permeated our culture for years. I know its not true of everyone.....
BUT...
If the above items took place in the majority of American homes, wouldn't it be reasonable to say that a LARGE PORTION of people have this idea in the back of their minds because of programming? Because of media? Because of society? Not JUST because of religion or a book that was put out based on a specific parameter of participants but because "because people felt empowered by a particular idea with little regard if any of it is true." @BoomerSpooner
Men for the most part have been in charge of our country for hundreds of years. If this idea was what they were raised with, then it would make it challenging for any of them to admit to having other needs. LIKE EMOTIONAL INTIMACY....
I was just looking at a NEWS article and then study after study showing that we as a human race have a need for Emotional Intimacy.
As humans, we all crave emotional connection. Feeling close with people in our lives gives us a much-needed sense of love and belonging, providing us support through the ups and downs of life. The benefits of deep attachments are surprisingly far-reaching.
What if this is something that women were taught was important but the majority of men were taught the opposite? THAT WOULD CREATE A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DISENGAGING FROM THE OTHER. (I am gendrifying for ease of typing because this is already a NOVELLA)
ANYONE WHO HAS GLANCED AT THE FORUMS for more than a minute can see that 80% of the threads are from one group (mostly men) saying they feel lonely, rejected, unfullfilled, dismissed, disappointed, unloved, and the majority of those people are mad that no one is responding to their NEED!!!
And a LARGE portion of responses to this need, is that more is necessary for healing than just a few cuddles.
What if.... along with the beauty of cuddling people we were encouraged to figure out the deeper issues surrounding an unfulfilled need for Emotional Intimacy?
@lonelytauros 🤣😂😁 I grew up with the "children should be seen and not heard motto" so..... there is THAT! Don't forget... I'm OLD OLD OLD!!!
the marketplace of ideas has become a marketplace of distortion... To feel ideas will rise and fall on their own is unfortunately an obsolete concept...
This is laughably untrue.
As messy and chaotic as it can be, an open and free marketplace of competing ideas will always, over time, prove the most beneficial for society.
And how does a conversation about something as innocuous and lighthearted as love language, an emotional connection between any people, nose dive into the grievances of religious patriarchy, "problematic" biases, agendas, and misinformation?
Even the Nazis had personality tests to determine if you were Aryan enough
From Wikipedia’’s entry for “Godwin's law”… short for Godwin's law of Nazi analogies, is an Internet adage asserting: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Thank you for your opinion. But it is only that.
@JohnR1972 I know all about Godwins Law, but the point is you can’t entirely divorce ideas from their source. I wasn’t escalating anything other than showing that ideas are not necessarily pure but can be more than just an idea. Ideas are created by humans and as such are multi-faceted and influenced by the creator’s experiences and influences.
I never said competing ideas are not beneficial, I said ideas rising and falling on their own is a foolish notion in an age where an idea can be absorbed, reformulated with half-truths and lies and sent back out into the ethersphere as comfort food to a specific demographic for a variety of goals. An idea is no longer a single entity—it is diced, cut, chopped and molded to make it palatable for and to influence a specific set of people. This could be for several reasons such as marketing, political aims, or to even serve as a distraction. To make another analogy, an idea in the age of technology has not one outfit but instead has a walk-in wardrobe closet to dress for any occasion. So if an idea rises and falls, the question is which form of the idea are we discussing.
You were a part of the discussion and you don’t know? And as far as my part, I merely stated that biases, agendas and one’s beliefs influence ideas. I did not say they were problematic—you added that. I also did not express any grievances.
But I will answer your question. Sometimes, which a couple of posts by others pointed out, topics that seem simple encompass other topics and become part of the primary topic. You perceived them as grievances but Chapman was a Christian, he believed in patriarchy, and he was white and heterosexual. He wrote with like-minded people in mind. The fact that someone offered a book that is more inclusive is not a grievance, it is a suggestion that for some reason leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
You were a part of the discussion and you don’t know?
Only insofar that I was marking the milestones of the nose dive.
That is laughably untrue. But you are trying hard to make it so. I will again disengage now as others have with you.