Healthy Masculinity

MCcuddles2

We've all heard the term "toxic masculinity". I'm gonna refer to it as TM for short. I think that TM is the reason a lot of men are starved of touch and intimacy.

So I've got two questions, for everyone both men, women and others.

1) What do you think healthy masculinity looks like?

2) How has toxic masculinity affected you?

---

As far as the first question for me, this is just of the top of my head and not an exhaustive list but it looks like:

Protectiveness of people who I am responsible for.

Stoicness in the face of adversity. Not to say that I won't deal with the emotions around the adversity, but I can put them away for later and solve the problem first. After the problem is solved I think that healthy masculinity means being able to talk about the emotions and process them with people I'm close to.

I think healthy masculinity looks like reaching out when we are going through emotional storms, rather than keeping it bottled.

I think it also looks like kindness and gentleness, but from a position of strength, if that makes sense. Kindness towards the less fortunate, younger people and older people.

I think looks like mentorship of younger people, and giving them wisdom from experience as they tackle life.

I think it looks like hugging other male friends, and holding space for them when they maybe going through their storms.

I think it also looks like preparedness for everyday challenges that may come up. Like being able to physically defend myself and others, knowing what to do if there is a vehicle emergency, knowing how to fix small things around the house, knowing how to cook, build a fire, administer first aid.

I'll add more as I think of them.

As far as the second question, I'm gonna chew on it and post when I can articulate my answer.

@MCcuddles2 Wow!! I love this thread already. You make fantastic points in it. I don't have anything to add but I'm looking forward to reading the responses here.

CuddleDuncan

Good topic. Can't think about it now but I most cordially suggest a different name. Perhaps 'normal' or 'modern'. Opposing healthy and TM suggests an as yet unnamed middle ground. It also may be a slightly off-putting name for the TM types we are trying to educate. To that end, maybe we should call it 'macho masculinity'?!!

Catloaf

Yes yes yes yes. I won't contribute on this one because I'll write novels, and plus, I'm a woman. But I will leave you with this, OP. Me, upon seeing that someone finally started a recent thread specifically dedicated to this topic:

quixotic_life

@MCcuddles2 ~ FWIW, I think you should keep the title as is. ♡ But I'm reversing the order of my responses...

TM has affected me: In a number of ways... From microagressions, to a group of dudes taking advantage of a crowded train, to a nasty rando shoving his hand up my shorts while passing me in a store doorway. TM perpetuates rape culture and the act of demeaning women as being acceptable.
[I'll just leave it at that]

HM Looks Like: @pmvines , @CharlesThePoet , @FlyingToaster , @DonLonG , @DarrenWalker , @respectful , @Sideon , @SuperManCuddles , @ ... you get the point... There are many many men here who are what I consider to be the embodiment of Healthy Masculinity!!

No offense if I missed you in the @ list ~ There really are a lot of you!!! And I'm sincerely thankful for all of you being here, showing up, and continually reinforcing positive narratives and POV's!! Go Team HM!! 💗

FlyingToaster

Thanks @quixotic_life

I know I haven't been on here in quite a while.. I've been wanting to have more of a relationship and have been looking elsewhere. I also feel like I've been going through a weird time (dating is hard), and I've been feeling a bit down and haven't felt like myself.

Toxic masculinity is something I think about sometimes though. Sometimes I feel like I've suffered from a bit of "nice guys finish last" syndrome, but I feel like I want to be authentically myself, and I don't want to be an asshole; it definitely seems like some people take masculinity to the extreme. There was someone I met on a dating app earlier this year who said she tended to date "assholes", and that I was the nicest guy she met; however, when she realized how much I felt, she said she wasn't ready for a relationship and she backed off, and ended up ghosting me. And that was after 3 months of hanging out.

MCcuddles2

I agree that being a "nice guy" isn't a healthy alternative, I guess that falls into the other end of the spectrum with TM being at one end, HM in the middle and Nice Guy at the other end.

I’ve been working through all of this on a personal level for more than twenty years at this point, and the point of sanity I keep coming back to is that there isn’t “positive masculinity”, any more than there is “positive femininity”.

Concepts of masculinity and femininity are more often than not restraints.

At best, a type of lens that we use to perceive what little illumination we have about one another.

I really started to feel balanced when I started thinking in terms of “positive humanity” vs “negative humanity”.

At its base, no matter what I do, it’s going to be “masculine”, simply because I am a 6’5” bearded, balding, large male of our species.

It isn’t for me to worry about being “masculine”, but rather my responsibility to myself and those around me is to be a positive human.

Once I got there mentally it was a matter of deciding what I wanted to do, and am able to do, to be a positive human, and make the world a little better than I found it, and make my day to day easier on myself and those around me, or at least not harder.

I’m human, I have negative first thoughts, I have bad days, I’m not perfect.

But the next time is the next opportunity and as I continue to make the effort to do positive things that effort becomes more of an effortless habit.

At any rate, this works for me.

Your mileage may vary.

😉❤️

Melomaniac9

I concur with @quixotic_life on all things said about TM when I was a teenager back home & travelled in trains & buses public transport I would carry one of those big nappy pins mind you open so that I could stick any asshole that stood too close to me & tried to rub himself on my friends & me, it was horrible to be constantly hyper vigilant but we were taught growing up corrected everytime sit a certain way, don’t wear this don’t do this what I don’t understand is why even now aren’t the boys told stop ogling, it’s not a big deal, respect women, we are not a sex object!
Kids even now is school are been told not to wear cold shoulder dresses, no bra straps to show, no showing collarbones it’s distracting to BOYs in school I call bullshit!!! It’s not I think this should be reversed on the young boys so they stop sexualizing women!!
As for HM I see lovely examples on here nice decent souls changing this space into a safe one for us all🙏🏼

Question 1) What do you think healthy masculinity looks like?
I can't speak for all but I would say confidence in one self for sure. I've realized my confidence has gone up in last month or so. I can surely thank the one person I can truly say makes me feel happy. Now with that being said when I'm away from her even if its a text I work on boosting my confidence for myself. I can speak from experience and seeing multiple people in my past relying on a partner for solely for confidence. Thats one major way to have toxic masculinity for sure. Another example of toxic masculinity I would say trying to be center of attention. Now this could be viewed in many different ways. Either talking in a group,in public,being the only person you talk too etc. I'm guilty as charged for doing that when I was younger. As I've gotten older Im a lot more reserved and introverted but I was already like that even when I was kid. Now as adult I've bloomed lol

Sheena123

Healthy masculinity is being able to have confidence in your feelings. To understand what it means to be vulnerable. To cry and know that that doesn’t mean you’re weak. And most of all, healthy masculinity is understanding the tribulations of women and being ok with a woman being herself. I say that because toxic masculinity was very prevalent in my previous husband. He hardly ever cried, thought other guys were weak if they weren’t able to lift hundreds of pounds but also hated if I stepped out of line. I he controlled how I dressed, what job I had and what friends I had. He controlled the money and basically my life because if I did what I wanted, it made him look bad.

I couldn’t have Facebook, I couldn’t wear makeup or anything remotely “sexy”. I couldn’t have a job that paid more than him. I wasn’t allowed to have a license to drive. I wasn’t allowed to watch certain shows. I couldn’t even have two dollars on me without him demanding to know where I got the money. Don’t even get me started on me being around other men or “performing” in the bedroom for him whenever he demanded. That’s hardcore toxic masculinity. So when guys tell me that TM is bull crap and doesn’t exist, I scoff at them. It’s very real.
My husband I’m with now has very healthy masculinity. The fact that he trusts me to be a professional cuddler and doesn’t control how I live my life, shows how secure he is as a man and husband.

respectful

Thank you @quixotic_life.

@MCcuddles2 An indirect answer to your questions:

Something that permeated the culture I grew up that I didn't notice until I was an adult is the idea of women being a "prize". There are so many movies and songs where the guy gets the girl in the end (or is depressed because he doesn't), or men are rivals for a woman's affections.

If a woman is nothing more than a prize, then her role is just to be desirable. What if she wants to be something else? What if she doesn't feel particularly beautiful? Where does her value come from then? And even if being a man's prize somehow suits her, it's a difficult role to maintain. What if she gets old and wrinkly?

An alternative way of thinking is: instead of something to claim as a prize or worship on a pedestal, women are just people with their own personal history, depth of character and personality -- they are just themselves, like any other human being.

They might still be fascinating, lovely and even desirable sometimes, but instead of being a prize to be won, women are people to know and relate to and discover -- which is a much more rewarding relationship anyway.

FelineCuddles

Awesome topic ✨
(rubs her hands in anticipation 🥳)

Empowered Modern man and Woman in are those who were able to recognize an opposite side within them (just as in Yin Yang ☯️ symbol - we all contain a dot of the opposite inside us)
... and learn to integrate these seemingly opposite energies within our everyday life routine.

Thus, the Self-Love gesture for women is all about recognizing and developing her inner masculine 💪🏽 side or better say, Will-power driven self-actualization as in taking care of themselves the way their ideal beloved male partner would do a century before.

While the Self-Discovery gesture for men as the next step of their development would be about integrating their inner feminine 💗 side through opening his heart, activating his Feeling-power and facing his emotional or astral realm that has been discussed earlier on this thread.

📣 the Next-level XXI relationships are about showing up as fully-integrated whole-some people who are self-reliant, accepting and communicative 📣

As for toxicity, it could be applied to both men and women naturally, as it has to do with the mechanisms children were allowed to apply when pushing their agenda forward. And there is a whole gradation between Encouragement vs Threat approached within gradation of Poverty vs Abundance mentality.

Luckily, there are ways to identify and successfully heal these behaviors with reverence to each unique story and set of goals.

As for me, I often remind myself that We all are work in progress and I work ceaselessly to humbly support those who need my presence in their journey ✨🙏🏽✨

Big_Chris

I'm in agreement with @CharlesThePoet

What does being a man (or woman) really mean? Masculinity and Femininity have changed so much lately, in my opinion for the better. I don't think there are quintessential male or female traits, except maybe stereotypical ones. Toxic masculinity seems to often align with the outdated concept of masculinity in general.

Some voices may dislike the line being blurred, and I can understand what may make someone uncomfortable. I think we should continue to strive to be our best selves, however you think that should look. I look at the traits some have ascribed to being positive and masculine, and I don't see anything unique to men. It seems counterproductive to restrict stoicism or loyalty to men. It's not that positive or negative traits can't be assigned to men, I just think 'masculinity' is on the way out.

Second question: toxic masculinity has affected me by telling me not to show my feelings, 'suck it up' and weakness is shameful. I put off asking for mental health help for too long because I was too proud and I feared what I would look like, less of a man. Its also told me that touch is for romance and I shouldn't be close, physically or emotionally, to anyone I'm not having sex with. Both hard lessons to unlearn.

MCcuddles2

I value what @CharlesThePoet has said, and though my experience doesn't align I can't argue, because he is speaking his truth about his experience and thats not something that one can debate.

My experience has led me to believe that a person's vibe and energy can fall along a spectrum between two nodes. The two nodes, over the course of human history, and from my experience fall into feminine and masculine.

(It's more complicated than a linear spectrum though, more like three dimensional one.)

Well said, @CharlesThePoet.

Positive humanity makes more sense to me, too: being a healthy person is what I aim for.

Male, female, or intersex—man, woman, or genderqueer—no matter your physical type, social style, or personality, it's healthy to put your survival needs before the desires of others (and their survival needs before your desires), to be able to calm down and think clearly under pressure, to be prepared to handle potential problems, etc.

There are qualities that make life safer, easier, and more enjoyable for those that have them (and for those around them) regardless of sex or gender. Those are what I try for.

I'd like to thank @quixotic_life for listing me among the examples of folks in possession of healthy masculinity! But I wonder....

Are any of the traits I possess good only for men?

Is rationality, for instance, negative if displayed by a woman? Is admitting that you've made a mistake a bad thing if a genderqueer person does it? Is the ability to fix your own plumbing unhealthy if you're not a man?

The idea of healthy masculinity carries with it an idea of opposition: masculine, not feminine, not androgynous, not human. Men only. And I gotta wonder.

Is a personality trait really so great if it's only good for the gander, and not for the goose?

applepie55

I love this thread!

@Sheena123 I'm so glad you are not in this situation anymore. I was there too... it's terrible how much TM affects both men and women. My partner was raised to look down on others to make himself feel bigger.
@Big_Chris I really like how you brought this side into it too.

1. Healthy Masculinity is Emotional Intelligence without guilt. Men (and women and everyone in between) should be able to acknowledge their own emotions, the reason why they are feeling like that and ride out the wave. All emotions are valid and necessary. We must learn to understand them and not be ashamed of feeling. This includes sadness and love.
2. TM affected me in countless ways. Mexican culture is rooted in a toxic patriarchy. Women are always in a serving role and men are providers. This leaves little room for conversations and connections between partners, parents-children, and even siblings. So, apart from straining the relationships I have with men in my family, I have come across plenty of toxic men in the dating scene....

I'm grateful for this community where I have found somewhat of a safe space

quixotic_life

@CharlesThePoet and @DarrenWalker

Those reflections are exactly why you came to mind. Both of you have such beautiful and healthy ways of explaining the human condition. I have a hard time dialing in my thoughts around all of this, and I'm not sure I will fully answer your (DW's) questions, but here's my initial go at trying to break it down...

I feel there's a healthy dose of masculinity, a smattering of femininity, and heaps upon heaps of nonbiainarity that make up who I am. And frankly, the first two are based on societal standards that I'm constantly at odds with, so it could be said I'm just a human and my gender doesn't really account for much at all.

I can see how looking at large enough samples, where gender is factored in, some traits may be consistently amplified in one group and muted in others. And that's where the notion of male and female traits came from. And I'm sure many see those results and identify with them, and hold them as the ideal/standard for their sex.

But to me, it's a spectrum that if forced to view through the lens of "is that male or female?" makes accurately categorizing them impossible. Because all traits are inherently human. We all have some degree of every "masculine" or "feminine" trait.

Did that make any sense???
(I might revise after some sleep).

@DarrenWalker

Now to your actual questions...
Are any of the traits I possess good only for men?
Absolutely not! Hopefully they're all good for you, and likely are for many others. But again, I don't think gender really matters.

Is rationality, for instance, negative if displayed by a woman?
Not in my experience.

Is admitting that you've made a mistake a bad thing if a genderqueer person does it?
No, everyone should do that (again not a gender, or nongendered, specific trait).

Is the ability to fix your own plumbing unhealthy if you're not a man?
No, and even though I wish I had someone else to do it, if the pipe finally gives way, with my luck, I'll be the only one here and will have to deal with it.

The idea of healthy masculinity carries with it an idea of opposition: masculine, not feminine, not androgynous, not human. Men only. And I gotta wonder.
I aggree, and see line one of this reply.

Is a personality trait really so great if it's only good for the gander, and not for the goose?
Again, I don't think that's actually a thing (see rambling paragraphs above), or at least it shouldn't be.

Though none of my thoughts are as well put, I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here... Yes?

Catloaf

So many amazing responses on here. Holy crap. Still won't be contributing really, as pretty much all that comes to mind has been summarised in lots of the comments. @Sheena123 @quixotic_life @CharlesThePoet

@respectful Oh my. Not to put you on a pedestal, but I would consider your post (pretty much anything you post, really, I miss it) worthy of a "Divine Masculine Award". You're a shining example.

I also realise I wasn't really thinking when I typed my initial post. Just because I'm a woman means I can't comment on TM? Lol. I have no idea why I said that, I think I misread "Men:" in the thread title and then filed the inclusive part of the OP's contents somewhere near my retinas where I can't see (hyuk hyuk). I hate having a brain like mine sometimes.

oberon

You can also view TM through the lens of capitalism such as how mens value was distilled into what they provide rather than who they are or having inherent value as a human being.

pmvines

This is healthy masculinity

MxSmith

I just really love what @CharlesThePoet said. I'm all about deconstructing toxic gender norms in general. Male bodies and female bodies are different, but the whole spectrum of genders have the same needs. The gender norms of masculinity are not inherent in the male body, but rather are behaviors taught culturally. Some of my favorites are the gendering of colors, patterns, & flavors. To feel emasculated by the color pink, or a floral patter, or a sweet cocktail is clearly culturally taught, and not anything to do with the male body. I think the same concept applies to male values like "being strong", "being the provider", "not being emotional".

1. Healthy masculinity is no masculinity, just healthy humanity.

2. Well an example from this weekend. My male neighbor invited me for a BBQ with friends. I got there and I was the only one who brought meat. The men took my meat without asking and threw it on the grill, overcooked it and shared it with everyone.. again without asking. And then the friends all thanked the host for the meat. *note I don't mind sharing and was expecting to, but the taking control and credit for what I was providing really pissed me off.

deefine

A lot of normal masculine things that aren't toxic are labeled "toxic masculinity" by apparent androphobes, and a lot of toxic masculinity is defended as normal masculinity by male supremacists (whom are often mislabeled as misogynists when they don't hate women but simply feel they should have more control than them), so the whole thing's become a muddled mess.

A lot of typical or traditional masculinity is healthy but demonized these days, unfortunately, and some toxic masculinity and some toxic femininity is ignored or swept under the rug (especially when it's part of calling out real or imagined toxicity of the other side).

I think it's best to simplify underlying terms: toxicity is harmful (even to dialog), not just unpleasant, annoying, or irritating (especially subjectively); healthy is productive, helpful, or synergystic; masculinity is typically testosterone-based, femininity is typically estrogen-based, with the hallmarks of those hormones (neither of which are inherently toxic); male and female supremacy can be toxic (or helpful depending on the culture, of which there has also been matriarchal cultures) but does not mean hatred of the other; gender roles have been helpful in cultures but probably aren't necessary.

So, hopefully the discussion of healthy masculinity isn't mired in outrage bloggers' misapplication of terms, ie their overly-broad usage to garner clicks, which happens way too often, because we need to remember that much traditional masculinity has been helpful to cultures or the species, and while it may not work for everyone, that doesn't mean a gender has been traditionally toxic or that the opposite way works better.

Yes I'm aware that gender is a cultural construct and that the sexes are determined by chromosomes (gonad placement by birth inside or outside of the body), and that hormones and environment affect feelings and expression of gender.

Melomaniac9

I think this Ted Talk is good perspective it’s talking about TM, HM and vulnerability.

TheFunCartel

@davebutton You hit this right on the button. I am leery of anyone who claims to be an arbiter of what is toxic and what’s not. Anyone who does is most likely toxic themselves. But as you said it’s all muddled now, and the labels are often used as a metaphorical club on people that they do not like, whether or not they are toxic.

Besides, that’s my job. I will rule whether something is toxic or not, but my docket is full for the foreseeable future.

TheFunCartel

There once was a time when toxic masculinity referred to the hours following binge eating at a Taco Bell. Progress has been made in that we now know it was never the odor but the odious behavior. Ok, maybe a bit of the odor if trapped beneath bed covers, but toxicity is acknowledged now, so I think introspection should not be too far behind.

Catloaf

Yeah, while TM is a thing, some people take it too damn far. Too damn far. My recent ex was a self-proclaimed feminist, which is great. I like to think of myself as more of an egalitarian which is what I think @CharlesThePoet might be referring to, but apparently egalitarians don't care about (or outright dismiss) issues that are specifically related to women (uh, what? I didn't know you had to subscribe to the feminist label to care about women's rights...). It was to the point that I couldn't offer to grab him a water when he would talk about being thirsty, but too lazy to go get it. He would say, "Asking you to do that makes me feel like I'm asking you to serve me or something, and that isn't equality to me".

It was also a boundary though, because I was asked not to offer anymore. It might've been a toxic boundary in my eyes; one of the ways I express love for a partner I am really, really, really into is acts of service. Or it could have just come down to straight up incompatibility.

But, dude. You're thirsty, you're lazy, you clearly don't want to get up, and I clearly don't mind getting up. Me offering to grab you a glass of water is not being a slave, nor is it perpetuating a gender role. Me offering to do the dishes or the housework (because I WFH and my job is not physically demanding like his was) most of the time is not me perpetuating a gender role, it's me giving you a rest from what you already have to do at work, which is be a custodian.

That was toxicity at play, toxic masculinity by proxy. He was trying to run so far away from the TM he witnessed through life that he completely veered off into space and it kind of ended up killing not just our relationship, but our beautiful friendship as well. I realised he has a lot of work to do around his black and white thinking. That's what polarizing terms like "toxic" and "healthy" can do, and it's an extreme example, I know. But of course, everything in moderation.

Bottom line is, we are all toxic to some extent. We've all behaved in toxic ways in the past. Might even continue to do so in the future, hey, as Kendrick put it in his earlier days, "I am a sinner...who's prolly gonna sin again".

@davebutton Your post is just making me go "GIIIIIIIIRRRRRLLLL", because I resonate with that hard due to the breakdown of my recent relationship. Refer to my earlier posted gif.

Catloaf

There once was a time when toxic masculinity referred to the hours following binge eating at a Taco Bell.

MCcuddles2

I'm gonna add that masculinity, as well as femininity can be a sacred concept. An understanding and acceptance of the energy that we are created with in this funky and mysterious universe.

Maybe it's a cliche but training as an amateur boxer helps me balance who I am as a man. Like, I don't have anything to prove to anyone anymore.

There is this quote I remember "only a warrior can choose pacifism, all others are condemned to it."

How I relate to it is that as someone who can do tough and rugged things, when I choose to be kind with others, it's truly a choice.

quixotic_life

@davebutton ~

"...male and female supremacy can be toxic (or helpful depending on the culture, of which there has also been matriarchal cultures) but does not mean hatred of the other;..."

If I'm understanding this correctly, I disagree. The "supremacy" of any, is inherently toxic as there isn't room for the leveled balance of equality.
noun: supremacy
the state or condition of being superior to all others in authority, power, or status.
Antonyms: inferiority, subordination, subjection

"...gender roles have been helpful in cultures but probably aren't necessary."

🤔 hrm...? I'm not quite sure what this means...

"...we need to remember that much traditional masculinity has been helpful to cultures or the species, and while it may not work for everyone, that doesn't mean a gender has been traditionally toxic or that the opposite way works better."

I really am trying to understand your comments fully. I see others agreeing, but I feel like I'm missing something that could help me relate/understand... What did you mean by, "the opposite way"?

"...much traditional masculinity has been helpful to cultures or the species..."

Can you elaborate on this? My reaction to it, as it stands, is that "traditional masculinity" has served to keep women in lesser/subservient roles for as far back as history has records. Can you provide examples where the, "traditional masculinity" I believe you're referencing, hasn't resulted in this? And perhaps clarify what, "traditional masculinity" means to you? Could be that my interpretation just doesn't match your definition.

Thank you

MCcuddles2

I sense an underlying assumption here that traditional masculinity = toxic masculinity.

I don't think that's the case. Masculinity at it's core is an inherent trait, developed by evolution, as a survival software package.