As a warning, not only are we going into the weeds and off the deep end when we conflate evolutionary dynamics with cultural masculinity, but we are also going to get into a ton of trouble.
There are simply far too many different definitions and traits of “masculinity” in various cultures for them all to be evolutionarily or genetically based.
And starting into evolution or genetic behavior is going to get us into real trouble.
Absolutely no one wants to hear it, and even fewer people will actually listen to it.
@CharlesThePoet hmm, yes, this can become quite a complicated subject
I think one of the most natural studies of human behaviour can come from indigenous tribes. Especially the ones in the amazon who have been separated from outside contact for a long time.
I've spent time with the shipibo people in the Peruvian Amazon and I've participated in ceremonies with them.
It really brought me back to what it means to be a human being existing as an intertwined part of nature.
I don’t know if this matters or not coming from a woman, but I think a part of healthy masculinity is the ability to treat women in a respectable way. I would also like to add that it should also be the ability to put aside “manly ego” and pride when dealing with all sorts of people and situations and just deal with it in a logical and practical way.
I will point out that, completely understandably, many women seem to have the impression that men are only toxic, abusive, disrespectful, violent, etc towards women.
That simply isn’t the case.
Other men are also the targets of all of those behaviors.
That our culture encourages that behavior, and frankly rewards it, is a serious part of the problem.
Yes, men must learn to respect women, but also children, animals, and each other.
@sage_wisdom ~ Sage Wisdom indeed! 🤗
@CharlesThePoet ~ Solid points. I was hesitant to post because I thought it might come off as critical or judgemental. But I get that in trying to dig in, one could potentially be digging for days and just end up so deep there's little light to get any sort of perspective.
That said, it wasn't so much the evolutionary or genetic behavior pieces, but more the social construct pieces I'm wondering about.
For example: Do people think that because "gendered" roles have always been a thing, that it's reasonable to perpetuate them? Even while knowing the harm they cause? Because for me, that's where the toxicity takes root. In the shaming of others, or oneself, for being "too" this, or "not enough" that, because it doesn't fit the societal stereotypes assigned to their gender/sex. Not to mention the leaving out of those who identify as neither male or female, or who identify as the opposite of their presentation.
All that said, I did see the thread was changed to, "Healthy" so I'm okay with leaving all these "Toxic" ponderings hanging unanswered. At some point maybe I'll have the chance to rationally converse with someone who answers, "Yes" to the above so I can better understand that way of thinking... But agreed to [try to] not continue it here. 🙂
PS ~ Thank you for being one of the good eggs!! You're definitely in good company with many of the men people here!! 🤗
We might all be a little happier (or aware) if we can recognize masculine and feminine as energies rather than societal labels✨🙂 Some have more masculine energy and less feminine, or vice versa. Others can have balanced energies without one overpowering the other.
@aquariusrising6 Don't forget to mention that in esoteric circles, it's said that each of us has "masculine" and "feminine" in us. People could easily misinterpret the table as being divisive. Someone (can't remember who) mentioned either in this thread, or another, to think of it as yin and yang. I like to think of it as simply polarizing energies. Black and white. Positive and negative. Water and Fire.
Speaking from an esoteric/spiritual point of view, in a healthy person, these energies are fairly balanced. Or there is work being done to balance out anything that's "out of alignment". In psychology, we can call wounded aspects by their Jungian name, "the shadow". I've heard the term "shadow work" and can't find any real psychological literature on it. Just YouTube, blogs, coaches, and new age websites. Everybody can do this work apparently, learning to take care of and mother their shadow. Well, mostly everybody, unless your pathology includes heavy symptoms of dark triad. Then it's really difficult. Either way, before anybody dives into psychospiritual terms like "wounded masculine" or "wounded feminine", they should consult with an affirming mental health professional. A lot of times when people get curious about healing perceived negative traits with these labels, they will look it up and find content that has no basis in psychological practise, and by doing "the work" given by said people, they may actually end up doing more damage to their mental health.
The only problem with these terms and classifications is that they create a somewhat false dichotomy, at least the way I see it. And then that brings us to the question. What about NB folks and such, who feel neither?
I said I wasn't contributing. LOL. Someone make this a drinking game, because clearly I've been saying I won't contribute way too many times, and then contradicting myself later on.
@catloaf...
Masculine = 🥃1 shot Feminine = 🥃🥃2 shots Healthy = 🥃🥃2 shots Toxic = 🥃1 shot
That should get both of us sauced enough to be completely unable to continue our contributions. But before I'm unable to form any sort of complete thought... I wanted to say, I really love what you've contributed here!!
Okay then... Here we go... Take a deep breath... And bottoms up!!!
::edit:: 🙀 Dang it! You removed your drinking game request...😿
::edit²:: 😺 Oh yay! You put it back!! 😸
@quixotic_life I had two tabs open and...the old tab which I didn't delete had an older version of the response on it. When I edited it for the babillionth time, as I usually do because I'm never satisfied with my responses... I accidentally sent that one through. I was so confuzzed.
@catloaf that’s why I led with:
“ Some have more masculine energy and less feminine, or vice versa. Others can have balanced energies without one overpowering the other.”
Of course that’s an extremely minimized way of wrapping it all up but that was my intention. Thank you for going into the details and adding to mine. Simply wanted to share some info I came across over a decade ago when doing shadow work and led me down my own journey. If anything it’s interesting. It’s not for everyone, nothing ever is….except air? lol
@aquariusrising6 Believe me, I'm with ya on it! And I love psychospirituality as an explorative healing modality, when it's done right. Shadow work was the one thing that made me let go of some of my wounded traits. I lean slightly more towards being in the masculine energy when I communicate or express myself, but I express myself externally in the feminine, and a lot of my wounds are indeed in the feminine as well. I always worry about people being taken in by false coaches though, and you probably know google is an easy place to get into the backpockets of...well, some not-very-ethical or misinformed spiritual folks (looking at you, twin flame tarot readers).
@aquariusrising6
You posted a meme someone created that has their own view on men and women. Why did you post that? Is that now a standard women and men have to follow?
"We might all be a little happier (or aware) if we can recognize masculine and feminine as energies rather than societal labels✨🙂"
Again you used a meme or a template that this is how any human should act contradicting yourself while saying, "societal labels," even though a societal label is your example.
I just act the way I am. I never really like labels.
@Saysoh That's her belief, and how she views the identification of toxic masculinity and toxic femininity. She's not pushing it on anyone, I don't think. You might be reading your own idea into what she's saying. I don't get the vibe at all that she is saying that's how people are supposed to think or operate, if they don't want to.
@catloaf
No. It's not her belief. It's someone else's and not everyone's perspective. She put out a chart that states this is how men and women should be. that meme looks like it was created by a church and not how humans actually are. Sorry for calling her out, but the human experience is a singularity or for it to be defined by an image and bullet points is an insult to life.
@aquariusrising6 thanks for sharing that!
A couple of concepts I think are important to remember.
1) as homo sapiens, our actions, our energy, behaviours, ways of being and the way we interacted with nature and each other came first, before we invented language.
2) Language simply represents an existing phenomenon. Our ancestors experienced that in general, males had certain characteristics and females had certain characteristics. Over the course of human history we have come up with words to generally describe the phenomenon. These are scientific facts, and cant really be denied. It's not offensive to say this I think @aquariusrising6 uses language to capture the phenomenon well.
2a) there are, obviously, exceptions to rules, and always have been. Native Americans accept the concept of a person having two spirits, or both energies present.
3)we are entering a new stage of evolution where we no longer need the evolutionary constraints that have helped us survive. Where we go from here is really uncharted territory.
Btw @quixotic_life I never changed thetitle. It was always "healthy masculinity", haha, so I guess everyone sees through their filters.
@Sayosh projection maybe? And you aren’t calling me out on anything lol but I recognize it’s your intent.
My post wasn’t meant to insult anyone but rather share information that resonated for me and helped me greatly over the years.
Never said anything about how people should “act”. Didn’t tag you in it to push my view on you
Sorry (not sorry) if this personally offends you. It is my own personal view. You’re more than welcome to pass it on by and find something more aligned with your own beliefs.
I wish you peace and thanks for sharing your personal view
@catlof you’re awesome, thanks!
@MCcuddles2
"3)we are entering a new stage of evolution where we no longer need the evolutionary constraints that have helped us survive. Where we go from here is really uncharted territory."
Elaborate. The evolution theory is fundamental, right? It's physical. I'm not sure what you mean by constraints? Has human intelligence progressed since information is more readily available, then I agree. However, I disagree the use of evolution here since the theory is based around hereditary (things being passed down from generation to generation which is clearly defined) because intelligence isn't part of that since we don't really know how the brain actually works.
Definitely doesn't offend me personally (good distraction). Yes, I did challenge you because you didn't share a view of your own. Simply conformed. Not really good for discussion.
@MCcuddles2 Loved reading your post. I think we would have great conversations😊
@Saysoh evolution has given us software that helped our ancestors navigate the wild. Human civilization has evolved faster than evolution can keep up.
For example, sugar, fat and salt were rare things once, our physiology was designed to seek them out and horde them whenever we could. They are no longer rare things but our software still draws us into wanting to horde them. we can override this using our intellect, but that is where we enter uncharted territory, where now we are masters of our own software.
If one day, I can use neuralink to upload my consciousness into a machine, then my preexisting meat and bones urges become even more useless. This is an extreme example but you get my point.
This is a lengthy subject and I would recommend a book called homo sapiens by Yuval Harari.
Maybe I'm unlucky but in my entire life I think I've only met one woman with all the 'healthy feminine' qualities listed by @aquariusrising6. Unfortunately for me she was already happily married to someone else. I've come across far more women with the 'wounded feminine' qualities.
I think you're confusing evolution vs progression. Progression in academia, self, perspective isn't evolution at all. Look at social media. Do you think tik tok and facebook is evolution? It's not by definition at all. You're also touching base with addiction with sugar, but that's a whole other conversation albeit I'm down to have.
"neuralink to upload my consciousness into a machine"
That won't happen for centuries. Cool, we can create autonomous cars, but we are so far from anything human intelligence and awareness ness, the term, "artificial intelligence," is just a fancy term. Robots have been building cars for the better part of a decade
@UKGuy
"I've come across far more women with the 'wounded feminine' qualities."
You mean, you've met someone that has had a human experience worthy of more than just a bullet point?
@aquariusrising6 I like what you put! I’m learning and working on healing myself. This is what someone else showed me too! @Catloaf @quixotic_life wise words from wise souls🙏🏼
I want in on the drinking game! I’m a lightweight just heads up 😂
People why can’t we just agree to be decent kind humans?
"People why can’t we just agree to be decent kind humans?"
I think being kind includes not buying into a narrative you don't agree with and offering a different perspective.
I see the benefit of splitting qualities into Healthy and Unhealthy. It's good to be able to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy things! I don't see the benefit of further splitting each group. Why do it?
My guesses are below the cut—these are the things I've seen that division used for:
You can look at a man who is strong and has boundaries, who is loving and supportive, who asks for what he needs, who is able to relate to others by listening, sharing, and creating a community, who enjoys the process of creation, who is receptive and confident in his body, and call him "feminine."
You can look at a woman who is honest, logical, accountable, supportive and encouraging, focused and disciplined, who has deep integrity and humbleness, who is nonjudgmental, who is present without being distracted, and call her "masculine."
You can look at nonbinary people and assign them gender labels without their consent.
But how is this useful? I just don't see it.
@Saysoh
But no one is selling you a narrative. A perspective was offered. Either way, I’m curious to know how you consider this as an act of kindness. Kindness requires a level of selflessness. Is it selfless to share one’s own opinion after assuming through your own perception that someone was pushing a belief or standard on you (when the general consensus is that they are not)?
@Catloaf
I appreciate your response and perspective. All fair points. By definition, part of kindness is sharing, right? Why isn't is it kind to share ideas?
Yes, posting a meme and generalizing both men and women is promoting a narrative without considering what people go through. It's no different from the conversation people have about morals; if you lack some Christian morals, are you a bad person? It's no different. Tell me how the image below isn't conformity for either men or women:
Great question and answers! For me, healthy masculinity is simply being myself, and toxic masculinity is trying to be what other people think I should be just because I am a man. I am who I am, as feminine and as masculine as I happen to be, no matter what anyone thinks of me.
I don't believe a man needs to participate in sports to feel secure in his masculinity, just as I don't believe a man needs to have sex with women to feel secure in his sexuality. The ballet dancer, the couch potato, the virgin, and the boy or man questioning his sexuality have nothing to prove. Healthy vs. toxic masculinity have nothing to do with what people think of you, but all to do with what you think of yourself.
Sharing is a form of kindness, but I don’t think you were really being kind in your approach. It felt like you were quick to jump down @aquarising9’s throat. You’re making assumptions about the intents of people sharing here and being subtly snide, in my opinion.
This esoteric infographic (not a meme - memes are distinctive images that go viral and maintain a lengthy legacy) is nowhere saying this is how men and women should be. It’s talking about the New Age (and originally indigenous cultural belief, e.g. Inuit peoples) concept of “Divine Counterparts”. Two halves of a person’s being. The masculine (think of it as yang) and the feminine (think of it as yin). Some cultures and faiths do believe that every person holds a feminine side and a masculine side, to put it simply. This is her belief and she shared her belief’s take on toxic masculinity and femininity.
Let’s not police other people’s harmless sharing of spiritual/religious beliefs. Not sure why you brought Christianity into the mix, but I noticed you did read my profile. Just so you know, I’m not one of “those” Christians. I’m very much for concurrent reform of all faiths, because I don’t think God is ever done speaking or writing our story (men wrote a book though and thought we never had to question it…pfft).