Holding hands in public

Nature_Lover_

Evening everyone,

Seeking honest feedback here please. No wrong answers.

Imagine two people during a public session. One of them a paid cuddler and the other a client. Opposite sexes. One of them married, the other single.
If the public session included dinner or a movie as an example - would hand holding in public be considered platonic? Would it be appropriate for the person who wanted to hold hands to ask permission or consent?

Why or why not?

I have my own feelings regarding this though I would like to see what the community will say, including clients, paid cuddlers, and enthusiasts.

Thanks in advance.

Louelle

It's fine. Holding hands can be a component of cuddling, especially in public as a discrete way to physically connect.

JoyfulHeart

My opinion regarding asking for consent: it's never wrong to ask before doing something.

Nature_Lover_

@Louelle thank you for insight. Also, side note; peeped your profile and it could not be more warm and inviting! 😊

@JoyfulHeart thank you as well, I agree consent is paramount. I too often hear people who cross boundaries or otherwise make someone uncomfortable simply because a separate person on a a separate occasion was ok with ‘xyz,’. Always best to ask if even out of respect.

me2

I can’t see how it’d ever be wrong to ask for consent, though our society can be weird about it at times (more taken aback about asking for consent than just doing something)

I feel the same about holding hands. It is platonic and I think Should be more normal. If there is consent there shouldn’t be a problem but I could see a married person being worried about someone thinking that they’re cheating if it’s public and a smaller area.

I’ve worked in situations where pda was discouraged in certain ways, but only if it made others feel excluded from hanging out. That’s slightly different, but along the same lines of considering third parties.

So I guess if there’s potential to hurt someone’s feelings and/or cause damage because of misunderstanding it could be less than ideal. I still wouldn’t say not platonic though.

Cuddling is intimate but platonic, the same with holding hands. I recently learned the term emotional infidelity in a neurology podcast in which some people consider even emotionally intimate conversations with someone other than their partner to be cheating, so I’m guessing there will be a wide variety of view points on this.

Super curious what others will say. It seems to me it will vary depending on peoples ideas of sexuality vs intimacy, the effects of public perception, the agreements people have with their partners, and consent as always.

SoftHairForDays

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Nature_Lover_

@me2 would that have been a huberman lab podcast? If so I recently watched that one on YouTube and know the references you are alluding to.

I’m intensely interested in everyone’s opinions as well. At the end of the day whatever occurs between consenting adults that is or outside the terms and conditions of this platform is entirely between them.

It is just curious to me because I often cuddle with my friends in my personal life though it has just been between single friends - I have never held hands with a friend in public though, that has always been for me, something done within a romantic relationship. It just strikes me as a show of romantic status in public. Could be total programming or conditioning and if both parties agree it’s platonic regardless of their martial status then I say more power to them.

OhioMike

@Nature_Lover_ you hardly see anybody holding hands anymore.

I always try to hold hands when crossing streets and I don’t care who you are lol. I have street crossing phobia

The marriage thing …. I’m trying to be open minded about married people here and idk , I’m from a generation that would frown on that I personally think if I was married again I’d be holding my spouses hand not someone else’s.

But I understand relationships are so much different now and things are more acceptable than before. Always learning about people and society 😊

Nature_Lover_

@OhioMike I can help you overcome your phobia via exposure therapy 🤣 or you could simply ask consent to hold my hand, lol.

And very well said concerning the vast array or relationship styles and what would be permissible within them as agreed upon by all parties. Much respect to your open mindedness.

me2

@Nature_Lover_ it was totally huberman lab 😂 so much good stuff on there!
And I love that you’re putting this on here to get data from people. It’s great to get more reference points.

I have similar feelings as your relationship status comment. For me it seems like it comes from conditioning and the perception of everyone else.

I have a really good friend for instance who can be uncomfortable with intimacy in general. Sometimes I help her practice by holding hands, but this is usually while we’re sitting on her porch and not exactly out in public. In that simi public space it doesn’t feel like something signaling relationship status.

I also spent a little time in Thailand and it was much more common for women to hold womens hand and men to hold mens hands without it signaling relationship or sexual preference.

There’s so much we could talk about with conditioning 😅 (me happily overwhelmed)

UKGuy

If you are married the question isn't whether you would consider it platonic, it's whether your spouse would consider it platonic.

Mela_B

To me, hand holding is ok and platonic if it is agreed upon by both parties cuddling as platonic, and by the married person's spouse as ok and platonic.

Nature_Lover_

@me2 That’s so cool! Love that kind of feedback and want exactly that kind of challenge in my thinking! Love huberman lab podcast ( and Andrew huberman ) not platonically, unless he has a spouse, in which case I only platonically adore him 🤣

Watched the podcast on the science of play and it’s benefits on neuro plasticity today and loved it.

@UKGuy thats a totally valid point. Many people who are not getting their needs for platonic touch met within their Relationships do use cuddling to satisfy or supplement these needs. Sometimes with and often without the knowledge or consent of their spouse. As a paid cuddler I am at the mercy of what my client tells me regarding their marital status and their partner’s knowledge, and consent.
I have had one person lie to me saying they were single only to reveal after multiple sessions they were married. For me personally I want to cuddle and connect with everyone I can that will benefit from it but not at the expense of a spouse. I don’t want to harm anyone.

cuddles_ndream

This is very tricky …. If I was involved with someone or if the pro was involved with someone, I don’t think its appropriate to hold hands in public out of respect for them, even if the best of intentions exist! Just simply out of respect for them. But I don’t think it’s wrong if others decide to do this, I’m speaking from the point of view of over thinking , & worrying what others might think if they were to know my girl in public or they were to know my cuddlers significant other (unnecessary drama ect)

ShaneSchrute

I was just struck by an aspect of consent while reading the OP asking essentially: is it okay to ask?

Asking for consent is of course my default position. But if you’re in a situation where all you’re getting from the person you’d like to hold hands with is body language that says no (e.g. hands thrust deep into pockets) and maybe the person has frozen up because that’s what they do when they’re stressed; I will assume it’s a no. I don’t think asking for consent in that situation is even on the table. It may even be immoral to verbally ask consent of someone who is emotionally frozen or unable to verbalize an answer because they are trying to subdue a panic attack.

Forgive me; I’m reading a book on moral philosophy. The situation I’ve described here is hypothetical, not typical and my own way of exploring the question, “is asking for consent always the right thing to do.”

JoyfulHeart

@ShaneMTB I can definitely appreciate your comment. To expand it a little bit, I'd suggest that asking for consent after getting a "no" is attempted coersion. That would include a verbal no, or one spoken through body language, and it would include a no that is given before the question is asked.

Thank you for making this point. I realize that sometimes people have difficulty verbalizing a no.

ShaneSchrute

@JoyfulHeart good point about the delivery method of consent.

This might be a good place for this:

I know personally I would never cuddle with someone other than my significant other. Right now I’m here because I’m not ready for a relationship (more I don’t think girls will give me a chance right now because of certain circumstances that I’m working on). So I understand platonic no strings attached cuddling. But when I do enter into a relationship there is no way that I would do it!!! I feel like that’s treading dangerous waters! Anything that could even potentially make the one I love question my love for her or question why she isn’t enough to fill that need in me, I am not okay with. I wouldn’t want her cuddling another man either! That would hurt!

Love2Cuddle757

One of them in married? It all comes down to .. how would the spouse feel or react if they saw their husband/wife holding hands with someone else?

nurturingman

@me2 "I also spent a little time in Thailand and it was much more common for women to hold womens hand and men to hold mens hands without it signaling relationship or sexual preference." If only it were that way where I live! Unfortunately, the world most of us live in connotes hand-holding in public with romance.

@UKGuy "If you are married the question isn't whether you would consider it platonic, it's whether your spouse would consider it platonic." Agreed.

@ShaneMTB THANK YOU for sharing that poster from Planned Parenthood with the FRIES acrostic defining consent:

Freely given
Reversible
Informed
Enthusiastic
Specific

That said, hypothetical situations depend on so many factors, so I will answer "it depends" rather than "yes" or "no." What does it depend upon? Many factors, not limited to but including the culture of that specific place, what is commonly practiced there, what it usually means in that context, the way you gaze at each other, your body language, and the body language and looks you're getting from the people around you, your ages, the way you both are dressed (dressed up like you're on a romantic date or dressed down like you're on a platonic date— not that dress has an absolute language), the music that's playing, the way the restaurant is decorated, the time of year (Valentine's Day in particular), etc.

One hint I learned from Madelon Guizzano, co-founder of Cuddlist (naming her to give her credit, not to name-drop) is that one way to check for consent is not to ask "may I…" or "would it be okay if I…" because that sounds like you want something for yourself (which is fine sometimes) but rather "how would you feel if I…" or "would you like me to…" because that is truly "checking" for consent rather than asking for it. This is not to say that there's anything wrong with asking for what you want; it's just to say that another approach that might be more empowering is to extend an offer and ask how it lands on them.

Rompo

Holding hands, even on its own, is an amazing and often overlooked form of connection.
I do feel permission should be asked on both parts. Beyond all of the obvious reasons, it just shows another form of consideration and connection to do so.
As for the married part, that all comes down to the individual, their spouse, and comfort levels. I'm married, and my wife has never had an issue with me holding hands with another woman. They've always been close friends, but it's just a human connection. If she were less comfortable with it, I suppose I would be as well. So that dynamic will vary person-to-person.

Nature_Lover_

So many great responses!! @nurturingman I especially loved the latter end of your response in which you discuss variables and speak to empowering ways to ask for consent! You bring a lot to these forums - I just wanna express and applaud that. Everyone else should bring more - ( totally kidding here - my quirky humor doesn’t always translate so I feel the need to clarify here !! 🤣 )

This whole post is better helping me support a fellow female pro who had a substantial cuddle session booked in another state with a repeat client whose stated he was excited to hold hands during the public portion of the cuddle session which was on Valentine’s Day. One party is married and cuddling without knowledge or consent of their married partner. She stated to the client public hand holding felt a bit romantic and made her uncomfortable. He abruptly cancelled the session siting he did not like that boundary and further explained other female cuddlers initiated public hand holding and without first gauging comfort. He said it shocked him when she did it. He also said he held hands with a female subordinate at his work place and it was completely platonic.

My recommendation to her was to hold her boundary and suggested she may want to respectfully decline any further sessions with the client due to these conversations / misalignment. After the cancellation and explanation of why the client cancelled he later would interject that he was open to future cuddle sessions. I told her it was healthy and appropriate for her to express how she felt and and decline future sessions should she feel she was harmed financially by the cancellation as she did decline and in state session with another prospective client. Furthermore it felt to me that his offer for future sessions were almost implicitly implying that he had a strong desire or condition of her relaxing or dropping the hand holding or romantic boundary.

Definitely thought provoking for me as all the variables really impact and influences all of the bits and pieces here.

Another female pro recently disclosed to me that during a professional massage a masseuse gently held her hand as he worked it at one point and this was novel within this setting but made her feel so good! She said it made her feel connected and somehow cared for which totally makes sense!

I was recently holding a beloved family member’s hand as I was spending precious time with her in critical care at the hospital and when I asked her if it was ok to do so she consented and it just warmed my heart. This woman is like a mother to me yet we have had very little physical affection because touch is not her love language. Of course this act was powerfully connecting and I don’t know who benefited more - she or myself - but it was certainly platonic.

Within private cuddle sessions I’ve had hand holding is also powerful and platonic. The environment being private, within someone’s home or hotel room makes me feel more safe and cocooned in a way in the warmth and vulnerability which so often unfolds when we gift ourselves this level of connection and the good medicine of compassionate platonic physical touch that our bodies and souls so need.

The insights and opinions here have greatly help me support my fellow cuddler and better understand what variables influence why things are felt or perceived in different ways.

Thanks again to everyone who has shared!

nurturingman

@Nature_Lover_ Aw, thank you. 🥰 Thanks for starting this thread and responding thoughtfully to the replies.

JoyfulHeart

@Nature_Lover_

He also said he held hands with a female subordinate at his work place and it was completely platonic.

This seems to suggest the man is oblivious to the true concept of consent.

I worked at a prison for a while, and during my training they talked about relationships between officers and inmates. They made it clear that because of the power disparity, there was no such thing as consent from an inmate. Even if it appears to hit the FRIES points, there is a big question on whether it's freely given.

The same holds true between a supervisor and subordinate at work. The fact that he's ok with it and the fact that she doesn't complain, doesn't mean she's consenting to it.

I'm pretty sure that the participants in this thread understand this. It's too bad that the man mentioned, and a lot of other men in society, don't understand it.

cuddles_ndream

@Nature_Lover_ i agree with your fellow female pro feelings & thoughts… this is clearly a boundary of hers, & it seems like the client is trying to downplay it , or put conditions around it in future meetings, I personally wouldn’t accept a booking again, & I’m sure there are other pros who don’t mind public hand holding at all who don’t mind or think anything of it, who would be a great fit, instead of guilting or having someone uncomfortable taking part in it.

Mela_B

I personally feel like requiring or expecting our clients' relationship status, and accepting the requirement of our own relationship status, reinforces that there is something more to cuddling than platonic, therapeutic touch happening.

You wouldn't ask a barber before cutting your hair if they were single or married, and the barber wouldn't ask you.

You wouldn't ask a spa tech before cutting your hair if they were single or married, and the spa tech wouldn't ask you.

You wouldn't ask any other service providers this question. Asking it in this industry reinforces the nuances of romanticism in cuddling, which is perpetuating the issue brought to light by say, @nurturingman, who said "Unfortunately, the world most of us live in connotes hand-holding in public with romance."

I'm trying very hard to move away from this. There is an art to this. Many people connect very deeply with their service people, bring them coffee, befriend each other on social media, and greet each other with warm hugs, and relationship status is irrelevant because they aren't trying to pursue a romantic connection. And that is, as a cuddler, what I strive for.

JaneDough_

@Mela_B 👏🏼 well said.

@Nature_Lover_ I believe that holding hands is platonic. When I'm with children walking, we hold hands. When my sister is scared, I hold her hand. I even hold my friends hands, just because. Consent is always required in all areas, as some people have different levels of comfort. I know people who don't like to hold hands because they sweat a lot, so if someone was to just try to hold their hand they wouldn't like it. Which is why consent and knowing each person boundaries is key.

@JoyfulHeart I agree, when there is a power over someone it's hard to tell if there was actual consent.

Nature_Lover_

@JoyfulHeart Boom! You said it!!! Could not agree more! I am actively furthering my own training so that I may best navigate the ethical and and other sides to providing platonic cuddle services.

@Mela_B I originally felt the same way as you UNTIL I realized sexual orientation, religious background and marital status may be relevant for those we serve who have been abused by someone. Let me give a bit of context - I have encountered now three adult men within the world of cuddling who were abused by a person of a specific gender, sexual orientation, religion ect and one even shared that this caused them to have an irrational fear of that type of person through out there life. Cuddling was an intricle part of their post traumatic growth and healing and even helped them overcome and fully understand their irrational fear / association. Beyond this, I understand certain folks might feel more comfortable with being vulnerable with a type of person they have historically been more comfortable with - not to be confused with transference but just speaking to familiarity and comfort level.

Clients have also expressed to me they would feel morally conflicted in cuddling with a married or partnered cuddler based on religious upbringing or other social conditioning as obviously the cuddling is still solely platonic.

The reality for me is that this is still an infantile and unregulated industry ( outside of governing platforms such at this one) which promotes intimacy and vulnerability without the romantic context and in its self, this can be taboo or uncommon. The bigger reality to me is that sweet spot right there - the intimacy and vulnerability achieved within platonic cuddle sessions can absolutely be life changing. It can spark creativity, promote healing, improve health and well being and so much more. The science behind the cuddling excites me and I’m grateful to be able to make the connections I do. I’d love to say this is just a a job for me I get so much more out of it, it brings me challenges, growth, friendships, comfort, connection and a safe space for an intimate exchange of ideas and energy.

That’s just one piece of why those facts about someone may be relevant.

Nature_Lover_

@JaneDough_ I loved what you said as well with respect to boundaries, prior relationships and consent!

@Mela_B I also know people who have met through cuddling and married. I know many many paid cuddlers who have made friends and even started relationships with people they originally met as clients. I personally have made friends and even one very special one whom I decided to just be friends with without any paid or unpaid cuddling. It is important to me to separate the two and I will admit while I love connecting with other paid cuddlers for the benefit of professional growth and development, possible networking or synergy, I most often find beautiful friendships happen within our meeting.

Realistically I feel some people do use this platform to purchase proximity / time / ect in the hopes of dating or being friends beyond the initial transactional introduction and as long as they adhere to the terms and conditions of the platform by which they connect, work within one anothers’ comfort zones and of course practice communication and consent, I say more power to them and the possibilities which may just naturally unfurrow. I also want to abundantly state I do not encourage the deliberate misuse of this or any platform. I have zero desire to waste anyone’s time or resources should they be seeking anything other than platonic cuddle therapy or connection via this forum.

Do I use this platform primarily for making friends, nope. I love that I have made so many even outside of any cuddling!
Do I use this platform as a dating service? BIG NO. I use this platform personally as a means to connect with amazing people I wouldn’t otherwise encounter in my normal circles, and most definitely for platonic cuddling.

Just my two cents. Excuse me now while I get lost on the woods ( hiking therapy ) and perhaps drool over Andrew Huberman, because well, science is sexy? 🤷‍♀️✌️😊

JaneDough_

@Nature_Lover_ I hope you enjoy your hike. Soak up some sun and fresh air for me too.. I'll be masked up, inside, staring at a computer, working 🥴 breaks over.

hifigeorge

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread. Many good points and perspectives have been shared. I'm married and my wife knows of, and supports my cuddling activities. I know my wife would be okay with my holding hands with a pro cuddler as we talked about it. Even so, that cuddler and I would discuss it, and if I didn't have their permission, I wouldn't hold hands. The only other concerns might be onlookers who might not understand. My wife was surprised there would be a problem. The short answer for me is, yes, I would hold hands in public with a professional cuddler if she concented.