Blatantly False (and Potentially Dangerous) Posts

GreatHornedOwl

From time to time, we all see a few posts that are blatantly false. Generally such posts are annoying, but are more or less harmless. At most, posting a message refuting the falsehood is all that need be done.

However, occasionally, a false post may cause grave harm to anybody who reads them, and takes their content for gospel. Two such types of potentially harmful advice can be posts that offer either medical or legal advice, based on invalid or completely false information. It makes little difference if the person is deliberately posting such false information, or if it’s something that “they heard somewhere,” and then stated it as fact.

The moderators clearly recognize this in principle. One of the forum rules is “Covid-19: Accurate information is critical for something as serious as Covid-19, particularly for a cuddling community. For this reason, we may intervene in response to misinformation, fake news or conspiracy theories on this subject.” That is clearly a good rule, but it is woefully incomplete.

Are touting cancer cures made from apricot pits, or claiming that childhood vaccinations cause autism any less dangerous than telling people that they shouldn’t get a Covid shot? If a post cites a law or laws that don’t exist, and somebody believes them, and acts on that belief, it probably won’t kill them, but it may ruin their life.

I would suggest that the moderators take a good look at that rule, and consider expanding it to cover other potentially dangerous, false posts

Moderator intervention is a good thing, but may not be sufficiently timely. The longer it takes, the greater the likelihood that one or more persons will have read and believed the falsehood, and may never see the intervention. Is there anything that the rest of us can do? Effectively refuting the falsehood can be tricky. If it’s not sufficiently strong, it may not be effective. If it is, it may violate the rule that states “Personal Attacks: While debating and discussion is fine, we do not allow rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks.” Is it rude or insulting to tell somebody that their post is a complete falsehood?

Jubal

On the last point only - no, if the response attacks the information and not the person.

Trivial example: Say that you post that a math formula proves that 2 = 1 (yes, this is one that makes the rounds sometimes). I respond by saying that formula posted is flawed because one step involves division by zero, which is undefined, and therefore the resulting steps that show 2 = 1 are false-to-fact.

My response is an attack on the statement that you made, not against you. But if I said "you're an idiot for posting this formula", THEN it becomes a personal attack.

@Jubal Nice explanation.

Mike403

Personal attacks are inevitable if somebody believes a different way. That's why they don't allow posts on political topics or religion. People can't seem to have a simple debate and be an adult about it.

Mike403

False information here tends to be removed quickly. On sites such as Facebook, it is allowed to run wild and I get suspended for calling them out on it. There have no humans looking at reports. It's all A.I. bots.

GreatHornedOwl

The example you gave is certainly true, but not quite to the point. The example you cited is indeed false, but is not at all potentially dangerous.

When a person gives legal advice by citing made up, non-existent laws, that might very well cause harm to the OP, is it a personal attack to tell him (or her) that he doesn't know what she's talking about? If so, how would you phrase a rebuttal in a way that people would be likely to believe your valid information than his false information?

I would think that there would be two purposes to such a rebuttal. The first would be to convince other readers that the original information was completely made up. The second reason would be to discourage the person from posting false, made-up information in the future. There seems to be a fine line between making a personal attack, and being completely ineffective.

GreatHornedOwl

@Mike403 - The false information in question was "it’s illegal to give a bad reference, they can only verify former employment along with dates & salary." None of that is true. She later said that she thought that she had read it on a web site.

To date, that false statement has not been removed. It would be unreasonable to expect our moderators to be universal experts, and to recognize remove every false statement.

Mike403

@GreatHornedOwl - False medical information is quickly removed. Not sure how damaging that one is.

SolidStella

Very interesting read! 👌🏻

zerocantaloupe

In terms of the line between attacks and refutation, here is a convenient article: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

GreatHornedOwl

@Mike403 - I'll tell you how damaging. The OP hated his job, and was considering an action that would very likely have gotten him a very bad job review. Other posts suggested that there were other. even nastier things that he should do.

If he actually took that legal advice, and then, ever after, had trouble getting a job, he certainly would have thought it was damaging. So might some others who read the topic.

Mike403

@GreatHornedOwl - This isn't the only source where false information may be present. It's all over the internet. That's why you shouldn't believe everything you read unless it's from a credible source.

Jubal

@GreatHornedOwl I would say something like "what you said isn't true" and follow up with my position i.e. "the law says x". This is an attack on the incorrect statement and not the person.

warm_embrace

I agree that the advice given above was bad. But, I’d like to assume that most competent adults wouldn’t rely on this website for professional, legal, or medical advice. 🤞

@warm_embrace You are correct. This is a cuddle site that allows for discussions and no one should act on advice received here.

GreatHornedOwl

@zerocantaloupe - That's a very good article in your link. I got a kick out of them saying "The most convincing form of disagreement is refutation. It's also the rarest, because it's the most work." A sub-category is attempting to refute a statement that says some particular thing (such as a law) exists. Can anybody offer evidence to convincingly refute the claim that Big Foot exists?

When the claim is that federal and state laws prohibit an employer from giving a bad review, it's extremely difficult to prove that there no such laws.

Mike403

Contact a lawyer for legal advice. A doctor for medical advice. They are the experts in their respective fields

GreatHornedOwl

@Mike403 - You and I both know that you shouldn't believe everything you read unless it's from a credible source, but it's amazing how many people don't seem to know that. The person who made the false assertion, wasn't being malicious. She later stated that she thought she had read it on the internet.

@Jubal - It's impossible to say "the law says x," when there is no such law on the subject.

@warm_embrace - What percentage of people do you think are competent? The person who made the false assertion, wasn't being malicious. She later stated that she thought she read it on the internet. Was she being competent?

jaswbrown

@Mike403 That's the most sound advice anyone could give.

...and this is my go-to for advice on cuddling.

Minestrone101

Girl, you know it's true.

Jubal

@GreatHornedOwl Ah, I see what your point is now. In that case, I would just stick with "your statement is false" or some such.

Regarding the responsibility, if any, of a website for information posted by members, you may want to read up on the differences between an internet platform vs an internet publisher. I'm not going to say what the law is on that subject so as to avoid making any false statements

GreatHornedOwl

@Jubal - When people went on the internet to say that Covid shots were unnecessary, of worse, that they were harmful, how much good did it do for people to say "your statement is false?"

pmvines

Personally I feel it is also irresponsible and potentially dangerous to post misinformation about benefits of cuddling. I see that fairly often, like snake oil , and people who are naive and desperate believe these falsehoods and things can go terribly wrong for them when they realize that not only did it not seem to cure what ails them, but actually made things worse due to simply not being emotionally stable enough to be placed in that kind of emotionally vulnerable and tactile position with an interweb stranger

@pmvines Well stated. What color polish today?

pmvines

@Btown
Haha still orange

zerocantaloupe

@GreatHornedOwl I mean, you might be able to scan the entire landmass Bigfoot is reputed to be on simultaneously with a network of surveillance satellites to show exhaustively that it doesn’t exist…

Or just acknowledge who has the burden of proof.

That is, ask the person claiming something exists to show you.

That is, ask for a source.

But don’t accuse them of damaging the world or whatever.

But I’m just a humble safety engineer, not a big city lawyer.

GreatHornedOwl

@pmvines I think you're talking about different situation. The benefits of cuddling exist for some people, and clearly not for others. What I was talking about something that should be provable. A given law either exists, or it doesn't. It doesn't exist for some people, and not for others.

@zerocantaloupe Have you met many dogmatic people? If I were to give them that scan, they would probably insist that Big Foot was under some big trees, or possibly hiding in a cave. Well into the twentieth century, schools in the city of Zion, Illinois still taught that the earth is flat. No evidence would convince them otherwise.

I never accuse anybody of damaging the world. I accused them of damaging one person (the OP). He had posted his thoughts about a course of action that would likely would be harmful to him, and appeared to be seeking approval. Several people egged him on, and even suggested that he should go further. Do you think that two people falsely telling him that state and federal law prohibited his employer from his employer from giving him a bad reference would not be damaging to him?

Jubal

@GreatHornedOwl I really can't give a truthful answer to your question about the necessity of covid shots, as someone might accuse me of misinformation.

However, I can say truthfully that after my hospitalization with it last year, my primary care doctor strongly recommended that I get a pneumonia vaccine and an 'old people' flu vaccine. I followed his advice. He did not feel that any other shots were necessary.

August1

This is an interesting topic. It's the job of the reader to utilize discernment. If you don't do your research and blindly follow advice on the internet, that's on you. What's considered 'false' or 'true' may vary, therefore, it is imperative to do research. Furthermore, medical professionals sometimes contradict each other. If you can ask a question on a public forum, you definitely can use Google or alternative sites to get information that will be useful to you. Censorship on the forums based on people's idea of what's 'true' or ' blatantly false' in an effort to curb 'false' information is unproductive.

GreatHornedOwl

@August1 - I believe that you are confusing two distinctly different different types of questions. If something is a fact, opinions are essentially, both useless and meaningless.

As I said previously, well into the twentieth century, schools in the city of Zion, Illinois taught that the earth is flat. Well, a few people (or even a few tens of thousands or people) insisting that the earth is flat, can't make it flat. The shape of the earth is a matter of fact, that is not subject to opinion.

I don't care if a few hundred, or even a few million people people believe that state and federal laws prohibit an employer from giving out a bad employee reference, their beliefs can't change the fact that no such laws exist. this is a question of fact. Either such laws exist, or they don't. Opinions are meaningless.

Some questions are subject to opinions. Questions of fact are not among them. You may want to ask how can one tell what how to discern a fact from an opinion. The answer is simple. Facts are subject to test. If assert that such laws exist, then I it is incumbent on me to find them and cite them. On the other hand, if I assert that such laws don't exist, then some time spent in a bunch of law libraries should establish as fact, that they don't exist.

Mike403

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.