I don't have a problem with his writing style or the fact that he has opinions.
On the topic of masculinity,
Men as kids often beat each other up before becoming good friends. We sometimes forget when we are older that we each are sovereign. We don't need to overtake someone else's ground. There is room for every man to be a king.
I'm just glad I'm not here to see any of that or be a part of it.
@Vocalist100
Yeah, it’s exactly why I find the topic of gender so fascinating. I’m not super well versed on gender, but I can definitely understand the idea of being non-gendered, non-binary, gender-fluid, etc. What makes it really interesting to me is that it’s hard to grasp exactly what makes me identify as male, or why it feels “right” to me. It’s honestly a bunch of arbitrary type things, but they make me feel good. As you said, any clear defined objective positive traits that I could associate with myself are traits that could apply to any gender. It’s exactly why I believe that the traits that make one person feel masculine (or feminine or any gender) can be very different than another person, and why I’m against the idea of setting a universal standard that is exclusive to one gender.
@SBG
Or, if a woman in a partnership makes more than her male partner, that has historically been seen as emasculating. But for a man to struggle to feed his family, be out of a job, or make less than his partner, that seems to hit closer to the male identity than it does for a woman.
Maybe I'm not the best person to discuss it, since these things don't apply to me as a man. I never know how much of an outlier I am (along with a lot of the men I know), and how much of it is a false perception. Always hard to tell.
But, even if it does hit closer to the male identity in general, that could just as easily be due to history and societal expectations as anything else. I know for sure me being a man doesn't make that provider idea part of my identity, so it's certainly not universal.
However, I have read articles and see videos how many men nowadays are feeling like they don't have a purpose. I think before, it was easier for men to fill their lives with a sense of purpose by being the breadwinner, or being the protector. They kind of feel like that's their strength and what they're good at, so when it's taken away, they feel like they have nothing and are useless.
None of that applies to me, and it seems like there are men here in this thread it doesn't apply to either. So it's always tricky when we're trying to talk about generalities and majorities, because whether or not they're true in general, they're definitely not universal and are not an essential part of the male identity.
So - providing and protecting are pretty central to the male identity, we would say. How do men express these in healthy ways? What's the most "healthy masculine" version of them?
To me, the way I kind of see it is that there a lot of different ways that a man can provide to his partner. It doesn't have to be through physical protection or making money. I see it as that he can give his partner something that no one else can.
I'm thinking about two friends I know that have the healthiest marriage and relationship that I've seen. The man in the relationship makes less than the woman, and they're probably of about equal physical strength. (that's not to say that she doesn't feel safer with him than she would be if she was alone).
But, she's told me that he gives her a connection that she could never have with anyone else. The way he understands her, supports her, makes her laugh, and just generally makes her happy is everything she wants. That's his way of providing for her.
I don't know how that's different than the way a woman could "provide" for her husband, though. Of course, healthy relationships can involve two men or two women or other gender combinations as well. That's why even if this "provider" role is important to men in general, it's definitely not universal.
I appreciate the original post. I'm not going to read all of the comments right now for a couple reasons. 1. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of repeated comments 2. I'm in a good mood and don't want to change that and 3. I just don't want to be disappointed by what i read in here.
In general i think our definition of masculinity (at least the commonly accepted definition) is just toxic. I feel the same of femininity. The words i believe are intended to define how actions or behaviors can be explained not what they truly are. I don't believe the machoism has anything to do with what masculinity is, but that's usually how it's described. I don't believe that masculinity has anything to do with gender even though we attribute it to behaviors of men. I believe i have a masculine air about me, but that would be how you be been conditioned. Don't get it confused i am a whole man, but i don't think id fit into descriptors you'd use. At least i hope not.
I believe all behaviors are necessary they just shouldn't be assigned to gender at all. I mean we look at "leaders" as some sort of masculine position usually attributable to males. I see no reason for that at all. Men are supposed to be protectors or something, because they are stronger or masculine. We can't say they are smarter because we see what they've done so far in history. I also see in nature that the most feared protectors are not male, i see that with humans as well. Protection doesn't necessarily mean brute force, that's just a tool in th tool box. We've never had a tough president and if toughness was the criteria i think we'd all be in trouble.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Carry on
Hey my bowels take offense to that @SpooniesBack
@Vocalist100 @Will564 I'm not sure how versed y'all are in more nuanced non-binary terminology, but your discussion brought to mind the concepts not only of being non-binary, but demi gender identities (demiboy, demigirl, et al), and agender.
One of my best friends struggled with their gender identity through college, as along with a lot of other childhood traumas they'd been forced into a sort of hyper-feminine role that is SO counter to the person I've known I have a hard time even imagining it. For awhile they tried on gender fluidity, as androgyny had been kind of their go-to since escaping their parents, but that wasn't quite right. Once they learned about demi gender identities, they thought demigirl might be more accurate than fully agender.
But then one day they texted me something I hadn't heard of, or seen since, but that fits them so perfectly - gender nihilism. They just don't care about gender enough as it doesn't matter, they don't feel strongly about it other than having it forced on them or other people. I've seen gender nihilism talked about in a broader sense of abolishing the concept of gender identity altogether, but not on an individual level, so it's been interesting talking with them about how they experience it.
They've since changed first their pronouns, then their name, to be agender, and are doing so much better than they had been in a long time. Their take-no-shit attitude is finally getting applied to themselves as well as the people they care for and it's wonderful to see them becoming more themselves.
@Will564 I love the way you put all that! And it certainly seems healthier for everyone than a "when I lose my role I'll die" stance. And I, for one, would love to have the emotional support of my partner than solely financial or physical. That was a really great way to put it, thanks. That helps me. I was raised in a very patriarchal construct and sometimes I feel like I have skewed ideas about gender - like, I don't always realize when or how far they're skewed. But I find the topic fascinating.
like, I don't always realize when or how far they're skewed.
Literally everyone has unconscious biases, you're not alone 🤗 it's why exposure to other view points and diverse conversations like this one is so important! I thought I was SO open-minded and worldly from travel...until I lived across country in a regional culture completely different from my own. It definitely opened my eyes and took the shine off some things I thought of as "normal".
@pmvines , does this mean I now have to apologize to your bowels?
@SpooniesBack All at your own risk ...
I think I will pass…😵💫
@BashfulLoner
I think I see what you're saying, and in a lot of ways it's pretty similar to how I feel. There are so many traits and aspects of people that don't have to be assigned or related to gender, even though some people may feel comfortable attaching them to their own genders.
For me, my masculinity is almost more about a feeling and/or an aesthetic sense than it is actual qualities. I don't really think there's an objective sense to it.
@cuddlefaery
I only know a little about all of the different variations of gender, but I like the demi idea because it shows how everything can be on a scale rather than just a simple either/or choice. I find so many things in life in general are complex with a lot of shades of gray, so it seems fitting that gender would be the same. I think it's why I like the idea of people just being true and authentic to being themselves instead of forcing themselves to hide or put away certain parts of who they are because of how others view it.
I imagine that people of all genders feel this way to a degree. For me, I definitely know that there are aspects of who I am that many people would view as traditionally feminine or not masculine, and some would view that as inferior. And I'm just getting better and better at not caring what others think about me negatively in that regard as long as those traits aren't objectively negative.
I also do think I've talked to people online who fit into that gender nihilism category. People who generally don't really think about gender and don't associate anything about it to themselves.
@Will564 people also associate varying degrees of importance and identity with their gender. Some people do not feel like their gender is really part of their identity makeup at all. For others, it's a very intrinsic part of who they are. And probably for most it's somewhere in the middle, like with most things human on a bell curve.
I think that one thing that often gets skipped over in these conversations is that up until more recently, men were not forced to confront how much being a man shapes their identity, and how what society views as a man shapes that as well. It was explored more by philosophers hundreds of years ago but it kind of took a back seat in the collective consciousness. Most women, non-binary, and trans folks often don't have the luxury of unawareness - so much of their every day lives is impacted by their gender, which in turn shapes how they view themselves. In order to change their experiences, they've had to analyze and discuss their gender identity and how it impacts them for years - perhaps since childhood. Men are only just starting to really join that conversation and probably are largely feeling overwhelmed.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It's kind of hard for me to go into from a personal standpoint since the topic of privilege/fragility and things like that get kind of too deep and personal for me for a forum conversation (kind of hard to explain here). But, I do think me being asexual has kind of given me some of that earlier type experience of doing that sort of self reflection, even if it's not gender based.
But yeah, I agree that it's kind of a new sort of exploration for men and it can be a lot to take in and analyze.
Being female, I will certainly take a back seat on this conversation, but thank you, @Will564, for starting a meaningful and fascinating stream of conversation, and for your thoughtful posts, specifically.
I have and will continue to enjoy reading what the men here have to say.
~ Sunset Snuggles
🦄 Enthusiast 🏞 Travel Fiend 🐘 Animal Lover
@cuddlefaery I've heard of agender, genderfluid, etc. but hadn't heard of gender nihilism. That seems more appropriate to me. I've never struggled with my gender identity - I just never cared to label it one way or the other. I (try to) adopt a more Taoist approach and have balances of both yin and yang - THAT I understand.
We men have an instinctive drive to provide and protect those that we love. If, for whatever reason, we fail in that role, we die inside and can become capable of monstrous things.
That’s very reductive. There are some men that do not want marriage and kids that are totally happy. Truth is, men have several drives that fall across a vast spectrum. Kind of sad that there are those who wall themselves in with one drive and become monsters if they fail. Like men have no impulse control against violence and destruction if they face adversity. Fortunately most men do not subscribe to this simplistic view of masculinity.
I don't quite know why, but after re-reading some of the posts in this thread, this scene from Mel Brooks movie came to mind lol
. . . and for those who want a serious point from this, it's that a healthy masculine trait is for a man to be "comfortable in his own skin", whether it's a professional suit, wrestling tights, mechanics overalls, medical scrubs,or whatever he's doing.
@jubal
I really like that point, because I think that’s one that is true for all people, but I think it tends to affect people of different genders differently. There are all different kinds of applications for it, but I imagine that there are certain patterns that probably tend to pop up. I imagine the things men tend to have more difficulty feeling comfortable with are different the ones that women feel, or different than the ones people of other genders feel.
And I think a lot of it is based on expectations that others have of them. While it’s easy for all of us to say that we should be ourselves and not care what others think, for a lot of people I don’t think that’s an easy task…especially because it’s not totally black and white. It is important to care what others think about us to a certain degree and in certain ways. We can use their input to understand ourselves better and to see things in ourselves we might not see.
But I think the key thing is to only care about those things because they are important to us and our own lives and what we want out of life. We can’t let others’ thoughts about us dictate our lives and make us feel things we don’t want to feel or make decisions that aren’t right for us.
@sunsetsnuggles
I for one would be very open to hearing anything you want to add. The blog post I mentioned in my OP was written by a pro cuddler who is a woman, and she had extremely good insights into masculinity that I enjoy a lot and find very helpful.
@platypus0110
we don’t need to overtake someone else’s ground. There is room for every man to be a king.
This is such a fascinating statement because I strongly agree with it in itself. But, based on the posts I’ve read here, I think that you and I interpret it in very different ways. That’s what makes it so interesting to me.
@SBG I disagree , I think being strong and being able to fight or do physical things can be a healthy form of masculinity (or even a good state of being regardless of gender). I had stopped people from jumping me in a foreign country by staring them down and have stopped others from bullying others simply bc I am confident from being a fighter (I didn't have to fight in the end). Learning how to fight has also given me courage to act in times when people freeze or panic or want to blend in: I shouted at a guy once during a domestic violence situation when he chased his gf to a car and literally kicked her driver's side window in. I told him to stop or id call the police and he stopped and she drove away. He went inside and I moved along lest he might brandish a gun. A few times I've helped my female friends at the club get away from creepy men . Also, when I worked with teenagers before I was able to stop a bullying situation even though the bully was literally had the size and strength of a grown man - had I not had physical prowess then I would have been intimidated by him. Lastly, there was another time where I witnessed the beginning of a gang brawl on a sidewalk near my neighborhood. I drove past, considered helping out and elected to called the cops. They appeared in less than 3 mins and the area was quickly surrounded by cops on all sides (5-6 squad cars).
In all those situations , I did not engage In a physical altercation but having that ability allowed me to navigate those situations. I think it's uncivilized to resort to violence or to use it to intimidate others , but I think it's good to be a shield against violence or injustice for others. And i do agree that moral courage trumps physical courage.
I just listened to a podcast that touched on this topic, and it gave me some new thoughts. In some ways I think it even offers at least some form of resolution of disagreement people have on this topic, because the two guys talking knid of touched on both sides some.
"Why aren't there more people talking about the warrior mindset? But from the perspective of 'The ultimate warrior never has to remove their sword from the sheath'. And who is a protector of those who are weaker and is a compassionate force for the community?"
"Unfortunately, we've conflated the toxicity with masculinity. You don't hear the term 'masculine femininity'. We've spent the last 40 years highlighting the wonderful things about feminine attributes. It's a celebration and it's wonderful, and it's helped women to do well. But we also need to envision a new aspiration of masculinity that says masculinity is amazing, and you shouldn't apologize for it and you should lean into it."
"I think of it as 'protector, provider, procreator'. When you think about the jobs associated with masculinity, like a firefighter for example. They just run into the building without thinking about it, saying 'Our job is to protect others'. I think that's a great place to start for men. That real masculinity is that your job is to protect other people."
"What you're talking about is service. I think a lot of the messaging about masculinity is about individuality. It's about going out and getting yours...selfish aggrandizement in a showy, flashy way. But real masculinity is purpose driven and service oriented. 'How are you showing up for other people?'"
"It also plays into our instincts. Men are more risk aggressive. Men will rush out into a field of combat to pull a comrade out whose shot, risking their own lives. Women tend to be more thoughtful. They think 'Is that a good idea?' And there's a role for BOTH."
"But masculinity is a societal construct. It's what we fill it with. A lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculinity. It's not the domain of people born as men. Firefighters can be women. When I go into cross-fit, the most impressive people are women. And we celebrate their strength. Personally, I'm drawn to men who are more feminine. My best friends demonstrate that kind of care, nurturing and grace."
"So where this comes off the rails is when you say only men can be masculine. These are wonderful attributes. What I'm suggesting that people born as men have an easier time leaning into these things."
Looking at it that way really makes all of this fit better together for me. That's because even though I strongly identify as a male/man, using that definition, I am much more feminine than masculine. But my problem is that so often I feel like that's viewed as inferior, and that it makes me less of a man, all for being myself, and that I should take on these more "masculine" traits even though it's not me.
So I think that's what helps to kind of celebrate these noble types of version of strong masculinity. I think it also fits into what @Minestrone101 just posted. I agree that we need people who have that kind of strength and the ability to fight when necessary to protect others. I'm even fine agreeing that this kind of masculinity naturally tends to come up more in people born men than women.
BUT...a man isn't any less of a man if he's not like that, and a woman can have that trait and doesn't make her any less womanly or more manly.
Basically..."healthy masculinity" doesn't have to be in men and isn't reserved solely for men.
My dear friend gave me this candle for my birthday 😂
@SBG you said "And that looks like: saying something when you see abuse or hear sexist comments around a woman..."
I agree with that, but also think that men should call out sexism all the time, not just when around women (and other genders). Better to learn that it's never ok, not just not ok around certain people because they'll take it the wrong way but we know what's up...
Interesting discussion, thanks for starting it @Will564 .
@pmvines Looks like there was only enough for a small batch.
@Unscented_Lemon Hey a little goes a long way
I agree with that, but also think that men should call out sexism all the time, not just when around women (and other genders).
Better to learn that it's never ok, not just not ok around certain people because they'll take it the wrong way but we know what's up...
@KaaGee excellent point!
One of the things we talk about in educational frameworks of teaching social-emotional skills is the whole problem of "do as I say, not as I do" that children end up being taught by adults in their lives. Kids see the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance and it drives them to either internalize that conflict, causing future behavior and mental health problems, or externalize it, causing them to essentially distrust adults as a whole and decide they have to emotionally make their own way - also leading to mental health issues. We then punish kids (and the adults they become later) for doing exactly what they were taught to do.
Examples:
We tell kids not to hit to solve problems, to use their words, but then we use physical fighting and war regularly to "solve" conflicts. Message they receive: don't hit to solve problems, except all these other times (without teaching then properly when and why those other times happen).
We tell kids not to ever pick on or hit women/kids/those weaker than us, and yet bullying and domestic violence are so rampant that 50% of kids and 25-30% of people respectively will experience them. Message they receive: don't pick on/hit people, except everyone else does it.
We tell kids not to yell, argue, talk back, or otherwise resort to uncivil tactics to get our point across, but we yell, argue, and talk over them to "make them" listen to us. Message they receive: raising your voice doesn't make people hear you better, but you should do it anyway when you feel like it.
We tell kids they shouldn't take their anger out on other people, that they should get it out first before continuing to discuss things calmly, but we regularly lose our own cool with them and punish them for escalations instead of going to cool off ourselves. Message received: don't take your anger out on other people, unless you have power over them and so always "win".
One of the hardest things I had to learn as a teacher, that I still am working on and probably will always have to consciously make the choice of because of my own childhood programming, is not to raise my voice louder to get misbehaving kids to "listen better". Escalating shouting matches were normal in my family, and up until I recently cut contact I always got anxiety before and during every family gathering anticipating when voices would start to raise. While I mostly internalized that trauma by becoming super conflict avoidant and people pleasing, I found to my horror when I started teaching that I started hearing my parents' vocal tone coming out of my mouth. Since I know yelling at kids does nothing but shut them down and escalate things in the short term, and cause trauma like mine in the long term, I've made a conscious effort to deprogram that reactionary response as best I can. I try to choose to lead and teach by example, though I'm far, far from perfect and I use my mistakes as teachable moments 😅🙄
The reason I bring all this up was yelling, fighting, defiance, etc. tend to be written off as just "boys being boys" or "teens being teens"... But those boys and teens grow up into adults who continue to yell, fight, and stubbornly defy any negotiation that could help them socialize more successfully.
@Will564
You're too kind! For now, I'm enjoying reading and contemplating what the guys have to say.
I was raised in a completely patriarchal household, so it's always lovely to see some of those mindsets challenged directly by men, themselves. 🫂
It also feels like a privilege to watch the male conversation on this, without injecting my point of view. Often we women try to post and ask each other about experiences or thoughts, and men jump in telling us what they think we should be doing, or speaking for us. Sometimes it's nice to just let the subject of the thread have the topic to themselves. 😊 I definitely appreciate that you were careful to address the thread to people in general though, and that you're so open! We need more cuddlers like you.
Just thought I’d finally pop in here and comment. I have nothing valuable to add to the conversation really except this:
I grew up in a one parent family. Brought up my Dad, and two Grandparents. But I’ll tell you something, if you’re ever unsure of what masculinity is, or what a man looks like, you should meet my old man. I wouldn’t have had my childhood any other way. 😊
@zerolight40
Any qualities about him in particular that stand out to you?