I'm done with covid conspiracy theorists

deefine

I'm fine with someone being skeptical of the medical community; I'm fine with someone supporting Trump (and I don't like Biden either); but if you're a covid conspiracy theorist or a hardcore Trump supporter, talking with you about any one of many current events will likely derail into fringe nonsense that nothing I say can bring back to a sensible conversation. It hasn't even been consistent fringe nonsense.

Have whatever beliefs you want, but I've already been delusional, already been in a cult-like religion, already been locked up, and in my 30's I decided to find reality, and science was the only consistent thing that I could reliably trace assertions back to evidence or connect the logical dots on. Physics is a great example.

Medical science and medical professionals are not something I doubt (note that skepticism is different than doubt). Their careers and effectiveness is based on the their knowledge actually working. My career works the same way. I just can't have a conversation with someone with a death-grip on fringe unsubstantiated things that make them feel good; almost every conversation I've had like that derailed and became more about those things than anything... and I'm not here to have someone try to pull me into their fantasy world like has happened with people I cared about all up through my believing and harm-inducing 20's.

I don't think it's your intent but I've shortened the title to be less political. Just a precaution due to how anything today perceived as political can spiral out of control and taint the community beyond just a single thread. [/Mark]

deefine

Sorry I'm a dick. I don't know if my beer is good

JasonCuddles

I think being stuck to any idea or way of thinking is foolish. There is a good quote someone made while taking about Darwin."It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."

Doing things one way and never changing under and circumstance is a road to inevitable failure. People in my area often vote conservative. They always have and always will even if the system is failing. Down there in the states you guys are stuck with a two party system and you don't have to be.

geoff1000

I'm reminded of the comedy sketch, set on the eve of a medieval battle, where the leaders of each army pray to God for victory on the day ; and God doesn't know how to satisfy both. A coworker was testing a sample of a new design, and said he prayed that it would pass the test ; but I said he should instead be praying that the test is representative of the real world, else we'll make thousands of items that we believed would be good, but aren't.

Belief systems are fine in principle, like Human Rights ; the trouble comes when satisfying one group of people, automatically dissatisfies another. I think for instance that Halal and Kosher meats, have no overlap.

Religion tries to put a pattern on the world, so we can act in the safest way ; to avoid a repeat of events like the Great Flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah. Geologists, astrophysicists and engineers do the same ; to avoid a repeat of the extinction-level asteroid event 65 milliion years ago.

Religious observation looks to protect our eternal soul ; science looks to protect the environment, and hence the eternity of our DNA as it lives on in our decendants.

The principles are therefore similar, but the difference is perhaps that science is willing to change the details of the way it does that. Theories last in mainstream belief, only as long as the evidence supports them, and it isn't blasphemy to test and challenge those theories. Those who find we were all wrong, are rewarded with Nobel prizes.

My approach to conflict, is often to ask each side to agree, what test we could do, that would prove which side is right. A positive outcome disproves Theory A, a negative outcome disproves Theory B. I have little time for people who either won't engage at that level, or dispute afterwards what they agreed to.

Sometimes it is helpful to know when people have a dogmatic approach, so we can save ourselves the effort of debating with them.

UKGuy

I'd rather there be too many conspiracy theories than too many conspiracies.

Chase22

@davebutton i appreciate this post ☺️

geoff1000

@UKGuy
One problem caused by Bletchley Park which decoded Enigma, is that it was successfully kept secret for decades, suggesting that other things might be too.

My favourite conspiracy theory is that the shooting of JFK was actually suicide.

quixotic_life

@UKGuy ~ Same. But my theory is there are more conspiracies than we've even scratched the surface of having made theories about. 😱

geoff1000

@quixotic_life
That's because there's a secret organisation suppressing the conspiracy theories.

RockRollCuddle

So do hardcore Biden supporters get a pass in your book? just curious as you only singled out hardcore Trump supporters

quixotic_life

Lol ~ "Hardcore Biden Supporters" ~ Bwahahaha!
Hilarious!

RockRollCuddle

@quixotic_life not sure what you found so comical about my question. wasn't meant as comedic fodder, but oh well.

geoff1000

I'm from the UK, so I don't understand the US government system very well ; which is odd, because the US system is apparently based on a French book, describing the UK system.

"Lost In Translation" springs to mind.

quixotic_life

@RockRollCuddle ~ the idea that a "Hardcore T supporter" could be leveled with that of any sort of "Hardcore B supporter" is insane!

One is all about racism, misogyny, lies, refusal to work with others, continues to ("stoke his base") actively seeking (and receiving) the support of extemisists, etc.

The other is all about equal rights, healthcare for all, admitting where they were once wrong and still looking to work with those who don't necessarily agree with them and keeping a balance.

If it were up to me, we'd be re-electing Bernie, but as it is we have someone who is really into "because I said so and your dumb" looking to angle us towards a dictatorship backed by extreme militias and the KKK. To me ~ that is Hardcore/Extremism!

Someone who listens to others voice their opinions (and takes a beat to consider them) is hardly what I would call a "Hardcore" anything.

🤘"Dude, I'm hardcore for tolerance and equal rights!" Said probably no one ever. It was the visual juxtaposition I had when I read your comment that made me laugh.

geoff1000

@quixotic_life
Kinda like "fanatical moderate" or "relaxing at breakneck speed".

quixotic_life

Lol! At least, "relaxing at breakneck speed" could be used on a bullet train...

As the saying goes you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I started using the nextdoor app recently (it's a kind of neighbourhood based social media for talking about local things) but felt the need to delete it after the reaction to a covid related post showed me the kind of people around me.

It was all about how kids at a nearby school weren't wearing masks or being encouraged to social distance, and how it was gonna cause issues if any of them get infected. The top comment was shouting about fearmongering, and almost all the others were similarly strange. Anti-mask, anti-science, anti-common sense - it devolved into complete madness.

dontremember

@Zundar my daughter added me as emergency contact in NextDoor. In order to agree to that, it seemed like I had to join up as a member, with all the personal information that that implies. Uh, no, she's 1200 miles away, and if a neighbor spots a problem with her property, they should call the police, not me.

I've also read about some NextDoor communities deleting perfectly reasonable posts from certain people, while allowing rumor-mongering, race-hating, conspiracy-pushing twaddle.

cabellye

@quixotic_life, yes, hardcore biden supporter is hilarious. Kind of how I'm described by my UK friends as been a "radical centrist." Somehow, being in the political centre in the UK means being way on the left in the USA.

geoff1000

An "extremist" is anyone further from the centre than oneself.

It's like a speeding motorist ; complaining at law-abiding drivers as "dawdling", and anyone faster as "reckless".

quixotic_life

No @geoff1000 that is not what an "extremist" is.

An extremist is "a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action."

Please don't lump those who are more or less than yourself into what is essentially a hate group.

geoff1000

@quixotic_life
I expect that many people whom we call extremists, think of themselves as moderate ; and only consider as extremists, those who are further along the scale.

A celebrity was in the news recently complaining at an unfair label, saying, "I'm not a wife-beater, I just slapped her". To him, a wife-beater has to be more violent ; most of us would say he already crossed the line.

Those whom we consider religious extremists, believe they are the ones following the true path ; and the moderates are just paying lip-service to the faith.

I think we should be very careful how we think of ourselves. The few people who eventually established gay rights, female voting, and the abolition of slavery ; were the "extremists" of their day.

pmvines

@geoff1000 your analogy of people who fight for equality in a time period where there was none is not the same as what @quixotic_life is referring to

quixotic_life

Um... @geoff1000 ...? Whatever... I'm completely perplexed by you and am finding myself getting perturbed. So I'm opting out.

@pmvines ~ Thank you for the validation. Sometimes I feel like I may be going mental due to not being heard/understood ~ especially when things, that I think shouldn't need further explanation or input from me, are lobbed back with a twisted take.

SMH ~ I just can't today...

pmvines

geoff1000

@pmvines
Imagine the world turns vegetarian over the next hundred years, because meat-eating either damages the environment too much or we just decide it's not right.

If that happens, history will treat very badly, those of us who currently eat meat ; and future generations will raise statues to those who fought for vegetarianism, in what we presently consider to be an extreme way.

The adage is, "Don't judge people by your own standards", but if we consider ourselves to be reasonable, then those are the only standards we have. I expect that most of us have views that among some groups would be considered "extremist", and we would be proud to have that title. The Good Samaritan was an extremist of sorts.

pmvines

@geoff are you able to just drop something and not talk in analogy and metaphor ? Trying to be right at all costs is just getting you lost in the argument . You dont have to always get the last word and you dont have to be an expert on all things.

geoff1000

@pmvines
I want to be an expert at getting on with people, and that means trying to understand them ; and it also means challenging those who seem to be behaving outside the bounds of what I've been taught is reasonable. Either they are wrong, or I am ; I struggle with the uncertainty.

Analogy and metaphor are commonplace in literature, and science teaching ; they help us understand the unfamiliar by reference to the familiar.

geoff1000

@pmvines
I want to be "right" by understanding, not by forcing the argument. I expect in your job you want to be right all the time, rather than making mistakes.

OhioMike

@geoff1000 , with nearly 8 billion people on the planet how many do you" understand" now? That's got to be exhausting. And why so strict thoughts? Why does someone have to right and the other wrong. Can't both be sorta right or sorta wrong ? I've always believed you are allowed to make mistakes all you want....you're also allowed to correct them.

geoff1000

@OhioMike
I guess I'm just a perfectionist. As the saying goes, "If at first you don't succeed, sky-diving probably isn't for you".

I don't expect any trainee nurse ever asked, "How many babies is it OK to drop ?"

P.S. I think I understand a lot more of those 8 billion people now, than I did when I joined the forum.