@DarrenWalker
You're going to die...if you don't take the easy way out. If you make the decision to let the death happen even though all you would have to do is lie and tell the killers that you don't believe that a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down when you darn tootin fully do, or something like jesus is the son of god, then your death is a sacrifice and the sacrifice is acceptable for sainthood. Bonus points if you inspire others to take up the cause.
At least, that's my take on it.
@ChefKate: But if there's an easy way out of a death, then how the heck is the death certain??
"Your death is certain! You're definitely going to die right now and there's no escape! Except this big old door over here marked 'escape', and come to think of it basically any direction but the one marked 'death'... you know what, just don't eat that mushroom and you're good. But your death is absolutely certain and soon to come!"
It just—it just doesn't seem too certain to me. As deaths go.
Edit: I'm probably thinking about it too much. @DarkLordChungus says, "It's a religion. You expect it to make sense?" Fair point....
Ok, this one was a softball. You don’t have to go far to find proof of Miracles
@FunCartel but did the Vatican put its rubber stamp off miracle on them? Or are they a knockoff? Lol.
@DarrenWalker the point is that the choice made is not the one that saves from the death. Thus creating a situation of sacrifice.
@DarkLordChungus what's the atheist version of "Amen"? TwoMen?
@ChefKate: I thought deliberately doing something to get yourself killed was self-murder? And when you could very easily choose to not die, how is the death in question certain?
No, I suppose I shouldn't expect it to make sense. It is religion, after all.
But it still seems to me that certain death gets closer the older you are, and so a centenarian is definitely facing a death that is both certain and soon to come, while a youngster deciding to get shot when they could've decided to not get shot, well... isn't.
No matter why they've decided to be suicidal.
@DarrenWalker yes you are applying logic to one of the most illogical creations in the universe.
Maybe this will help...if you jump in front of a bullet to save someone you love (and are successful), are you saving them or killing yourself?
@ChefKate: Hahaha! That's me, always trying to make sense of even the nonsensical. I'm such a goober.
In answer to the question, though... I'd say you're killing yourself.
Maybe you've saved them, but maybe they don't want to live without you, or maybe they didn't want to live at all, or maybe there's another bullet coming, or.... But one thing's for sure and certain—you've definitely killed yourself.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Are we talking a .22 or something of a more heavy caliber? Does it hit vital organs?
@FunCartel dead person's choice?
Also I'm unsure how anything vitals an organ.
Orgasms and crack... like the theology @ChefKate.
Basically, it's like in the face of certain death if you do some virtuous thing, you do the virtuous thing and it results in your death, rather than rat out your virtue to save your skin. It's actually quite an amazing quality in some humans when it's for something truly beautiful. We can make fun of Catholocism or any of the other organized religions, but generally before the power hungry a-holes take them over and legislate and administrate, there's some damn fine stuff often in the origin of many of them. Likely there are as many amazing virtuous humans who give their lives for good stuff outside religions as inside them, but in Catholicism it was taken to be a kind of honor to be"called" to that kind of virtue.
That's the heart of my understanding of it. Humans can be spineless and sell out their neighbors for pennies, and they can also be super brave and virtuous to the point of giving their lives. Amazing lot we are.
@littermate
"We can make fun of Catholocism or any of the other organized religions, but generally before the power hungry a-holes take them over and legislate and administrate..." But power hungry a-holes have always been at the center of religion?
"there's some damn fine stuff often in the origin of many of them." Sure, so long as you ignore the stuff like slavery and treating women as brood mares.
@littermate: Your last paragraph reminds me of a thing I read in a Japanese novel once—something about how even the same person can be noble or cowardly in different circumstances, and isn't it fascinating? Though of course some people will lean more to one side or the other across all circumstances. People are different!
Anyway, I think you're right when you say there are probably just as many amazing virtuous humans outside religions as inside them.
Why invent a deity who you can give the credit for a person's good behavior, I wonder? "Ooh, you're a good person. You know why? Because a power greater than you called you to be so! What an honor!" Couldn't you just... praise the person for doing the good thing?
And then, as @DarkLordChungus says, religions tend to start with a lot of not particularly pleasant cultural stuff getting enshrined as holy writ. Yikes.
Forget babies and bathwater: let's not eat the poison with the pudding.
We can have the good stuff without the bad!
And we are also back to a God who let his son take the bullet for him. But it’s ok because now you will love him because he made such a gruesome sacrifice. And if you don’t believe and love him to death you will be separated for eternity from him.
So the choice is love a prolicidal God or be banished from him. I will take door number three Monte. Usually that is the door where you get a cow that you can trade for magic beans. I win.
Damn fine stuff at the beginning? Like there was a Garden of Eden and it was perfect until woman was created and she f’d up the world by taking an apple from a snake? Yeah wow. The origin story is worse than the New Testament sequel.
Sheesh, Women! I mean, I love ‘em but how many stories do we tell to keep them down? I love Disney but it’s not healthy at all for feminism. But that’s none of my business.
Do you know that the point of stained glass windows, in cathedrals, was to visually tell the stories of the bible. To deliver the message 24/7. To be a reminder and a lesson. Sainthood, to me is the same thing. It gives a flesh and blood example of reward for living a Christian or Catholic way of life. They both, make-real, and relatable, that way of life. It's all about that influence and although, art, that influence is a form of control. This is meant to be more analisys, than criticism. I consider myself Christian. I've never associated with the Catholic church. Peace
Wow, lots of thoughts to ponder. Thanks for everyone's participation. You are all appreciated. Carry on.
@Gallowglass And masses were given in Latin rather than the local vernacular for centuries as a way to impede any logic or thought being applied to their message. Controlling the way the message is given is another power structure or mind control technique and one that is used successfully by cults. In addition, the introduction of Satan was done by the Catholic Church in cycle plays at country fairs as a way to scare the shit out of illiterate, uneducated peasants. In some ways, Satan was the first negative ad.
When things don't makes sense, or contradict, anywhere in life, its always thought provoking to follow the money, power, and control/influence.
@FunCartel you mean something like, "I'm jesus and I approve this message" in reference to satan?
@ChefKate There you go laying it off on a poor Hispanic man.
I was part of progressive churches for a long time (United & Unitarian) because I loved certain aspects about them:
But that's pretty much it. There were way more things that bothered me. So I don't go anymore. I'd list off all those things, but I think most of them have already been mentioned in this thread. And for the things I liked, it wasn't hard to find alternatives in non-religious settings. So yeah, I'd agree that it's not worth taking the bad with the good in this case
@FunCartel if he existed, he was poor, but wouldn't have been Hispanic. He would have been Jewish. 😹